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Rivers are Now People

Hawkeye10

Buttermilk Man
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New Zealand declares a river a person
IT SOUNDS, admits Chris Finlayson, like a “pretty nutty” idea. Yet the new law that declares the Whanganui river, New Zealand’s third-longest, a legal person, in the sense that it can own property, incur debts and petition the courts, is not unprecedented. Te Urewera, an area of forested hills in the north-east that used to be a national park, became a person for legal purposes in 2014..
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Days after the law passed, an Indian court declared two of the biggest and most sacred rivers in India, the Ganges and Yamuna, to be people too. Making explicit reference to the Whanganui settlement, the court assigned legal “parents” to protect and conserve their waters. Local lawyers think the ruling might help fight severe pollution: the rivers’ defenders will no longer have to prove that discharges into them harm anyone, since any sullying of the waters will now be a crime against the river itself. There is no doubt that of the 1.3bn-odd people in India, the Ganges and the Yamuna are among the most downtrodden.
http://www.economist.com/news/asia/...llution-and-other-abuses-new-zealand-declares

More logic be damned cause the ends justify the means BS.

I am not a fan, at it does is prove that the law does not mean anything, that those who are in charge are going to do what ever they want to do, and then paper over the justification. There is a fundamental lack of honesty on the part of the elite which is a cancer on civilization.

This will not end well.
 
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New Zealand declares a river a person

http://www.economist.com/news/asia/...llution-and-other-abuses-new-zealand-declares

More logic be damned cause the ends justify the means BS.

I am not a fan, at it does is prove that the law does not mean anything, that those who are in charge are going to do what ever they want to do, and then paper over the justification. There is a fundamental lack of honesty on the part of the elite which is a cancer on civilization.

This will not end well.
If the river drowns someone, can the river be get convicted of 1st degree murder and executed?
 
New Zealand declares a river a person

http://www.economist.com/news/asia/...llution-and-other-abuses-new-zealand-declares

More logic be damned cause the ends justify the means BS.

I am not a fan, at it does is prove that the law does not mean anything, that those who are in charge are going to do what ever they want to do, and then paper over the justification. There is a fundamental lack of honesty on the part of the elite which is a cancer on civilization.

This will not end well.

Well you guys think corporations are people.
 
New Zealand declares a river a person

http://www.economist.com/news/asia/...llution-and-other-abuses-new-zealand-declares

More logic be damned cause the ends justify the means BS.

I am not a fan, at it does is prove that the law does not mean anything, that those who are in charge are going to do what ever they want to do, and then paper over the justification. There is a fundamental lack of honesty on the part of the elite which is a cancer on civilization.

This will not end well.

Have you even tried looking at what the justification for this is? What makes you think that just because it is the government that passed this that they are the cause of this? Do you have any clue at all about the treaty of waitangi? Who has sovereignty of the land and who has sovereignty of governance?

Americans will probably have a difficult time understanding why a government would honour the treaty made with the indigenous people. After all it is not as if america has any record of honouring the treaties made with its own indigenous people.

You do not have any idea what benefits derive from this do you? Can you honestly say that you have any empathy or understanding of tribal relationship with that river?

Since you have not bothered to apply any logic then it is presumptuous to claim bull****.
 
Have you even tried looking at what the justification for this is? What makes you think that just because it is the government that passed this that they are the cause of this? Do you have any clue at all about the treaty of waitangi? Who has sovereignty of the land and who has sovereignty of governance?

Americans will probably have a difficult time understanding why a government would honour the treaty made with the indigenous people. After all it is not as if america has any record of honouring the treaties made with its own indigenous people.

You do not have any idea what benefits derive from this do you? Can you honestly say that you have any empathy or understanding of tribal relationship with that river?

Since you have not bothered to apply any logic then it is presumptuous to claim bull****.

Given all the heavy handed diversion attempts I take it you understand how screwed up this is.
 
New Zealand declares a river a person

http://www.economist.com/news/asia/...llution-and-other-abuses-new-zealand-declares

More logic be damned cause the ends justify the means BS.

I am not a fan, at it does is prove that the law does not mean anything, that those who are in charge are going to do what ever they want to do, and then paper over the justification. There is a fundamental lack of honesty on the part of the elite which is a cancer on civilization.

This will not end well.

I see the logic in that, now that I think about it. It didn't make a river literally a person. It imbued the river with the legal rights of a person. There can be benefits to that...that no matter what offices or job titles or people come and go, who are the caretakers of it, the river will become the primary "legal person" for whom legal rights exist, always needing someone to act on its behalf.

Not so very different from the Native American view of the world, where all things are alive in a sense. And a river is indeed alive in a sense.

I can see the logic in it. There must have been some need, some advantage, or they wouldn't have done it. Rivers do live a lot longer than humans. In the scheme of things, who cares? None of our business.
 
Have you even tried looking at what the justification for this is? What makes you think that just because it is the government that passed this that they are the cause of this? Do you have any clue at all about the treaty of waitangi? Who has sovereignty of the land and who has sovereignty of governance?

Americans will probably have a difficult time understanding why a government would honour the treaty made with the indigenous people. After all it is not as if america has any record of honouring the treaties made with its own indigenous people.

You do not have any idea what benefits derive from this do you? Can you honestly say that you have any empathy or understanding of tribal relationship with that river?

Since you have not bothered to apply any logic then it is presumptuous to claim bull****.

What is a presumptuous bull**** is that a river is a person. No matter what any treaty or peoples culture or anything else says. A river is water. Nothing more. Nothing less. Science is good for you people. Learn it. Use it to make SANE laws.
 
I see the logic in that, now that I think about it. It didn't make a river literally a person. It imbued the river with the legal rights of a person. There can be benefits to that...that no matter what offices or job titles or people come and go, who are the caretakers of it, the river will become the primary "legal person" for whom legal rights exist, always needing someone to act on its behalf.

Not so very different from the Native American view of the world, where all things are alive in a sense. And a river is indeed alive in a sense.

I can see the logic in it. There must have been some need, some advantage, or they wouldn't have done it. Rivers do live a lot longer than humans. In the scheme of things, who cares? None of our business.

Isn't it the governments job to take care of such a river? A river has no Rights. Its water. It doesn't need advocating for by a "parent". If people want to advocate for a river then they gather up in a group, or singly, and petition their government to do something SANE.
 
Given all the heavy handed diversion attempts I take it you understand how screwed up this is.

Not at all. What i do understand is that you have not bothered to do the research necessary to make such a comment. In fact i would say you are applying what you understand of your own culture to that of another countries culture. That is why you see it as screwed up.
 
Isn't it the governments job to take care of such a river? A river has no Rights. Its water. It doesn't need advocating for by a "parent". If people want to advocate for a river then they gather up in a group, or singly, and petition their government to do something SANE.

It is not the government that is being given the job. It is a mutual partnership. Another example of someone who does not bother to learn before they speak. If i had tackled anything about the american constitution and showed the mount of misunderstanding that you have just shown i would be getting laughs of derision by every american here. Yet i doubt from your comment that you even know of the existence of the treaty of waitangi let alone understand that this is recompense for years of government neglect of that treaty.

They did do something sane. They made it so that the river cannot be treated piecemeal by polluters and have the integrity of the water destroyed by enacting a law that makes it so that the river has to be treated in a holistic way.
 
What is a presumptuous bull**** is that a river is a person. No matter what any treaty or peoples culture or anything else says. A river is water. Nothing more. Nothing less. Science is good for you people. Learn it. Use it to make SANE laws.

The river is not a person how ridiculous that you cannot even understand something as simple as that. It has the legal right of person hood
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personhood
Personhood legal definition of personhood
Person
In general usage, a human being; by statute, however, the term can include firms, labor organizations, partnerships, associations, corporations, legal representatives, trustees, trustees in Bankruptcy, or receivers.
A corporation is a "person" for purposes of the constitutional guarantees of equal protection of laws and Due Process of Law.
Foreign governments otherwise eligible to sue in United States courts are "persons" entitled to institute a suit for treble damages for alleged antitrust violations under the Clayton Act (15 U.S.C.A. § 12 et seq.).
Illegitimate children are "persons" within the meaning of the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
New Zealand: Whanganui River Given Legal Rights | Time.com
The Whanganui River, considered part of the living landscape by the indigenous Whanganui Iwi people associated with it, has been granted legal personhood under a parliamentary bill, reports local news service Newshub. Two representatives from the local indigenous community — one appointed by the government, another elected by the community — will be entrusted with acting in the river's interests.

it is bad enough that people here are making comments that show an ignorance of the country they talk about as i have demonstrated with your comments and others. But you should at least know what person hood is.
 
It is not the government that is being given the job. It is a mutual partnership. Another example of someone who does not bother to learn before they speak. If i had tackled anything about the american constitution and showed the mount of misunderstanding that you have just shown i would be getting laughs of derision by every american here. Yet i doubt from your comment that you even know of the existence of the treaty of waitangi let alone understand that this is recompense for years of government neglect of that treaty.

Bold: Did I say that? Nope. I didn't. I ASKED "Isn't it the governments job to take care of such a river?"

Underlined: People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Rest: Again...I could care less about any treaty or anything else. A river is nothing more than water. It is NOT a person. Anyone that says otherwise should be thrown in the looney bin because thinking that water is a person is a sure sign of insanity.

They did do something sane. They made it so that the river cannot be treated piecemeal by polluters and have the integrity of the water destroyed by enacting a law that makes it so that the river has to be treated in a holistic way.

They could have easily done that without claiming that water is a person. Most countries take care of their water supply without once referring to it as a "person".
 
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Well you guys think corporations are people.

Not that tired canard again. Corporate personhood is a legal fiction which dates back centuries in English law, from which American law largely derives. Without it, how could anyone sue a corporation? And without the ability to sue for breach of contract, etc., who would dare do business with a corporation?

There is a Supreme Court case, I think from the 1970's--an environmental case--in which the Court recognized that certain trees and rocks had standing to sue.
 
The river is not a person how ridiculous that you cannot even understand something as simple as that. It has the legal right of person hood

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personhood
Personhood legal definition of personhood

From your own links: Personhood is the status of being a person. and n. 1) a human being.

No corporation or tract of water cannot have "personhood" bestowed upon it without sane people thinking you're bat **** crazy.

New Zealand: Whanganui River Given Legal Rights | Time.com

it is bad enough that people here are making comments that show an ignorance of the country they talk about as i have demonstrated with your comments and others. But you should at least know what person hood is.

Again. Don't care. If I told you that all mosquitoes and flies are persons you'd laugh your face off at me. Why the hell would you expect others to not laugh at the notion that water is to be considered a "person"? Do as I say, not as I do mantra? pfft.
 
Isn't it the governments job to take care of such a river? A river has no Rights. Its water. It doesn't need advocating for by a "parent". If people want to advocate for a river then they gather up in a group, or singly, and petition their government to do something SANE.

It has rights now. I guess they see things differently from you, and it's their river. None of our business.

Not very different, as I said, of the way Native Americans saw the world. Life being present in everything.

I think you're viewing it as advocating, since you use that word. But the article says it has its own debts, owns its own property, and the like. Therefore, a debt that it has follows the river, no matter who the human leader is at any given time, no matter who is charged with keeping track of the debts. Like I said, it's a legal thing...it doesn't mean the river is literally a person. There is probably some advantage to that, or they wouldn't have done it.
 
I'm all for getting people to respect the environment. The Ganges has been a giant toilet bowl (literally), for decades. However, there's got to be some other way to convince people to stop polluting the river.
 
It is even worse than I thought:

Despite the Whanganui River Deed of Settlement, several private interests in the River are preserved, meaning that parts of the River remain privately owned. This seems incongruous with the aspirational concept referred to in s.2.2 of the Deed of Settlement, namely that Te Awa Tupua is a person, who by definition cannot be owned. This allows for an argument concerning the weakness of the legal personification of the River or any other natural entity to be made: entailing that the legal personification of nature isn’t the ideal standard for environmental protection in the case of New Zealand.

Furthermore, in Māori mythology, tupua translates as a type of object of fear, something supernatural or a strange being. The legal recognition of a Māori demon or goblin and the legal personhood afforded to parts of the River under this name – whilst recognising specific Māori beliefs – does not recognise other religions and beliefs and may offend other communities. To that degree, the provision is atypical of a pluralistic society. The granting of rights to the River for its protection may not only not create a useful legal standard, but, on the other hand, also possibly complicate important decisions concerning substantive political content at different localities along the River. According to ethical pluralism, substantive political decisions could better be made on a case-by-case basis according to the needs of local communities and ecosystems based on scientific evidence ( Barraclough, 2013).
New Zealand?s Whanganui River Deed of Settlement - futurepolicy.org
 
A huge screw up by SCOTUS. One which I hope is rectified.

A huge screw up how? No one up until citizens united had a problem with especially not the liberals who were all to happy when the NYT and planned parenthood corps were considered people in the scope of constitutional rights
 
Bold: Did I say that? Nope. I didn't. I ASKED "Isn't it the governments job to take care of such a river?"
And i answered it, no, it is not the government that is being given the job. It is in fact a dual role.
Underlined: People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
People should also understand what it is they are asking.

Rest: Again...I could care less about any treaty or anything else. A river is nothing more than water. It is NOT a person. Anyone that says otherwise should be thrown in the looney bin because thinking that water is a person is a sure sign of insanity.
Then you have no right to speak about a river in that has been given person hood. Because it has not being converted into a person. You still have no clue as to the difference between the two.

They could have easily done that without claiming that water is a person. Most countries take care of their water supply without once referring to it as a "person".
Fine for many countries. But no country but nz has a treaty of waitangi. So what happens in other countries should be of no concern here.

Do try to keep in mind that the OP states quite clearly in bold and enlarged.
New Zealand declares a river a person

If the op stated only that a river had person hood then you can bring in what other countries are doing. But it does not. It questions one specific country. One that you have no idea about. I doubt that you have even heard of the treaty let alone have a clue what it says or why it is so relevant to the creation of person hood status.

I find this highly hypocritical. if i tried to bring a nz attitude or cultural understanding to any topic of america and if i especially went out of my way to say that i did not care what the american constitution might have to say on a subject concerning america, there would be no end of americans telling me i had no right to comment and openly sneer at my ignorance of what is important in america.
Yet here you are daring to comment on something that has happened in my country. Something that concerns our treaty and all you can do is say you do not care about any treaty.

Pure hypocrisy.


From your own links: Personhood is the status of being a person. and n. 1) a human being.
Quote mining now that is the most lowest of fallacies. What the quote from my link actually says and you deliberately try to hide.

In general usage, a human being; by statute, however, the term can include firms, labor organizations, partnerships, associations, corporations, legal representatives, trustees, trustees in Bankruptcy, or receivers.

No corporation or tract of water cannot have "personhood" bestowed upon it without sane people thinking you're bat **** crazy.
A view that would be dismissed easily as it happens all the time.
Again. Don't care. If I told you that all mosquitoes and flies are persons you'd laugh your face off at me. Why the hell would you expect others to not laugh at the notion that water is to be considered a "person"? Do as I say, not as I do mantra? pfft.
I understand that all you can do is argue by fallacy, this time Reductio ad absurdum. The best you can do is pretend that you said something sensible.

The fact is there are good reasons for person hood to bestowed on that river where as you could not come up with a good reason for your absurd example. All you mange to do is display real ignorance about the culture and laws of another country. nort surprising when americans usually do display their xenophobia openly.
 
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Given all the heavy handed diversion attempts I take it you understand how screwed up this is.

I am not sure i even understand what you just said. This is clearly about a bunch of people who have no clue what the culture or laws of a country outside there own is.
 
It has rights now. I guess they see things differently from you, and it's their river. None of our business.

Not very different, as I said, of the way Native Americans saw the world. Life being present in everything.

I think you're viewing it as advocating, since you use that word. But the article says it has its own debts, owns its own property, and the like. Therefore, a debt that it has follows the river, no matter who the human leader is at any given time, no matter who is charged with keeping track of the debts. Like I said, it's a legal thing...it doesn't mean the river is literally a person. There is probably some advantage to that, or they wouldn't have done it.

This is very much about honouring the treaty. it is also about acknowledging the culture and beliefs of the maori. They are a people of new zealand. It is also acknowledging the greatest asset new zealand has which is that of presenting to the world an image of being clean and green.
And unfortunately we are doing poorly at maintaining that image so this granting of person hoos gets back into step with that image and respecting the maori spiritual connection with the land.
 
I am not sure i even understand what you just said. This is clearly about a bunch of people who have no clue what the culture or laws of a country outside there own is.

If you want to make a stand for New Zealand's failure to stand up for basic standards of human civilization then give it a go. Lashing out at me is not that, it is a sign of weakness from you.

Let me have now....what is your argument that we should revert back the norms of the primitives, most of who are either long dead or got educated?
 
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