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Juvenile vs Adult in Law.

They were still boys and not adults. That's the nub of the question. The Human brain develops and grows until the mid-twenties. Thats the anatomy and physiology of it. before that age, the person is to some degree not completely adult. There are all sorts of other factors, socialisation, physical strength, learning disability, but that's the basic norm. The law can set a cutoff, the question is where, and that can be varied by societal difference. Arbitararily moving the goalposts depending on the crime doesn't change the child's culpability, only the punishment.
Scandinavia has a very different way of dealing with child murderers, compared to how the Bulger killers were treated. Their murderers never missed any school!


BBC News - How Norway dealt with its 'Bulger' case

Interesting that in that article the father sort of excuses the actions by saying they were just playing around. A malicious but not premeditated murder. Where as the english boys case is much harder to say not premeditated.

My point in bringing this aspect up is that we cannot really say that premeditation can only happen with a mature adult.
 
How does that explain the comment that children lack the maturity to be premeditate a serious crime?

This is the question you asked me, and I am reiterating that I don't believe this. I believe criminals should be judged based on their level of premeditation, which indicates their level of competence.
 
This is the question you asked me, and I am reiterating that I don't believe this. I believe criminals should be judged based on their level of premeditation, which indicates their level of competence.

Yes, i asked that question in response to your saying
I think it should depend on the level of premeditation because that requires a degree of maturity and understanding that an immature mind would lack.

You also said an immature mind lacks the capability to premeditate a crime. Fortunately in most cases you are correct. But then sometimes someone appears and throws that thought out the window and shows that immature minds are capable of premeditation.

I would like you to be right but unfortunately it is not. Which leaves us with the problem of what to do with a child that deliberately murders someone.
 
Many folks have a tendency to view the divide between adult and minor in a very sharply defined manner... anyone under 18 is referred to as a "child" (actually some stats even include persons up to 25 as "children", incredibly) and 18 and over is "adult". Under 18 is assumed to be irresponsible, far less accountable, and forbidden most adult activity, while 18 and up is, in many ways, treated as fully accountable and so on.

I'm talking about the full spectrum of issues here: sex/consent, ability to legally contract, vote, buy a gun, live independently, self-determination, criminal accountability (juvie justice vs adult court/prison), driving, getting married, etc.

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This is one reason I think statutory rape charges for having "consensual" sex with a 9yo is entirely reasonable and justified... but when the subject is 14-16, perhaps not so much, at least not "rape". Especially not if the "perp" is only 2-3 years older. And what if they're both "underage"? To be fair and reasonable you'd have to either charge both or neither.

In my home state much of these issues are resolved through a gradual accumulation of legal rights/privileges. At 16 you can drive and consent to sex; at 18 you can vote, join the military, marry, buy a long gun, sign a contract. Due to Federal fund pressure you can't buy a pistol until 21, which is also when you can get a carry permit.

I've never heard of a 10yo being tried as an adult in my state tmk, but plenty of 15-16yo's are if they commit adult crimes.


Discussion? Let's try not to get overly hung up on a single issue please (like consent) because I'm talking about ALL the adult rights/privileges/responsibilities and not just one.

Just as in the abortion debate, I have made the argument that the unborn child two weeks away from normal delivery is not substantially different from the newborn baby, but it is legal at least in some olaces to kill the baby even minutes before it would be born naturally but never okay to kill the newborn. And to me that just doesn't compute rationally. NOTE: THIS IS AN EXAMPLE AND NOT INVITATION FOR AN ABORTION DEBATE.

Once one of my friends was parking downtown with a mounted police officer a few feet away. She pulled in, turned off the car, unfastened her seat belt, opened the door, saw that she was straddling the white line, so she restarted the car and backed up to position it properly. And the cop ticketed her for driving without a seat belt--she had not refastened her seat belt--and explained to her there was no give in the law to allow him to give her a warning. NOT AN INVITATION HERE FOR A SEAT BELT LAW DEBATE.

And coming back to the thread topic:

Likewise the two kids who are sexually active without legal consequences at age seventeen become illegal the day the older turns eighteen. In fact the statuatory rape that then comes into play could possibly brand the 18-yr-old as a sex offender for the rest of his/her life. Most especially if the male is the older. And to me that makes no sense at all and I can see no justice whatsoever in it.

All of this begs the question of when the law is unreasonable and how we fix it without doing away with all the GOOD mandatory penalties for such things as using a gun to commit a crime, drunk driving, etc.
 
Yes, i asked that question in response to your saying


You also said an immature mind lacks the capability to premeditate a crime. Fortunately in most cases you are correct. But then sometimes someone appears and throws that thought out the window and shows that immature minds are capable of premeditation.

I would like you to be right but unfortunately it is not. Which leaves us with the problem of what to do with a child that deliberately murders someone.

I'm not basing maturity level on age, but level of premeditation and competence to commit a crime, which is indicated by the context of the crime committed.
 
I'm not basing maturity level on age, but level of premeditation and competence to commit a crime, which is indicated by the context of the crime committed.
None of the links about these child murders really speak of competence at what they did. They were easily caught. It would be difficult to argue that a child of 6 or 10 could have developed maturity by that age.

Basically i agree with you but because exceptions do appear from time to time. It is not a clear cut case that we can base maturity on premeditation.
 
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