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Unarmed elderly man with dementia killed by police in Calif.

Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

Thread title got mangled by accident. Can a mod fix?
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

GhostlyJoe said:
Thread title got mangled by accident. Can a mod fix?
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Not mangled. A ghostly transmutation.
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

Well.

Serna has never carried a gun and was opposed to firearms, Serna's son, Frank Serna, told KGET. "I don't know what led police to believe he had a gun," Frank Serna said.
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How about that...

...a neighbor contacted police and said Serna brandished a gun at his wife and wife's friend.
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Still, IMO this was not sufficient provocation for this shooting. Some officers, more often than not either rookies or officer's with little experience in dealing with such incidents, will over-react and shoot without a proper threat assessment.

Unless they are facing a quick-draw McGraw, any officer having his weapon aimed at the ready and with proper presence of mind has sufficient time to see if:

1. there is a weapon in the suspect's hand and

2. does it pose an imminent threat (i.e. a gun, or just a knife or some other hand-to-hand weapon).

Many of the videos I've watched of "bad shoots" seem to show the officer reacted on adrenaline rather than acting in a combat assessment frame of mind. Constant training will develop and re-inforce that kind of threat assessment processing.
 
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Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

As much as it sucks this the man who was shot was scum. Questioning and harrassing people who live in the neighborhood is never ok. It's a good thing the police removed this bigot from society.
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

reinoe said:
As much as it sucks this the man who was shot was scum. Questioning and harrassing people who live in the neighborhood is never ok. It's a good thing the police removed this bigot from society.
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I'm assuming this is a joke post? He was an old man with dementia. He was confused.
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

joG said:
Not mangled. A ghostly transmutation.
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Hahaha ... Now I just need it to transmute into a coherent headline
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

Aaah! The thread title's been bamboozled!
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

I wondered how long it would take for this event to make thread status at DP.

Yes, another example of our police out protecting and serving us.

Some easily led neighbor followed the government's example and advice, saw something and incorporated a non-existent gun into the description, and voila, another dead innocent.

It is not hard to understand why so many cops are being ambushed around the country.
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

Thoreau72 said:
I wondered how long it would take for this event to make thread status at DP.

Yes, another example of our police out protecting and serving us.

Some easily led neighbor followed the government's example and advice, saw something and incorporated a non-existent gun into the description, and voila, another dead innocent.

It is not hard to understand why so many cops are being ambushed around the country.
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Our tendency to factionalize isn't helping matters. Black Lives Matter. Blue Lives Matter. All Lives Matter. Most of the time, we're sloganeering and arguing past each other -- not even hearing or giving weight to legitimate points of view.
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

GhostlyJoe said:
Didn't see this posted. What an absolute shame. Police are way too trigger happy. This has to stop.

Unarmed elderly man with dementia killed by police in Calif.
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The cops? What about the people who called the cops and said there was a gun without knowing that was the case?

The cops showed up based on a report of a man who had brandished a gun and threatened a woman. If anyone is to blame for this outcome it's the people who called in a "gun" report without actually seeing a gun.
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

Lutherf said:
The cops? What about the people who called the cops and said there was a gun without knowing that was the case?

The cops showed up based on a report of a man who had brandished a gun and threatened a woman. If anyone is to blame for this outcome it's the people who called in a "gun" report without actually seeing a gun.
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Witnesses are notoriously unreliable, though. It's the officers who are ultimately charged with investigating and, if needed, taking action. They're the ones who presumably are trained to assess a potentially dangerous situation. They're also the ones who pulled the triggers.
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

GhostlyJoe said:
Witnesses are notoriously unreliable, though. It's the officers who are ultimately charged with investigating and, if needed, taking action. They're the ones who presumably are trained to assess a potentially dangerous situation. They're also the ones who pulled the triggers.
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The cops are responding based on the information they have received. Nothing they saw would have indicated that the information was wrong and if the guy didn't take his hands out of his pockets there was a credible threat. Bullets go through cloth just fine.
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

Lutherf said:
The cops are responding based on the information they have received. Nothing they saw would have indicated that the information was wrong and if the guy didn't take his hands out of his pockets there was a credible threat. Bullets go through cloth just fine.
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Imaginary bullets fired from imaginary guns don't go through anything. The presumption of "credible threat" is the exact opposite of due process. An unreliable report -- completely uninvestigated -- is pretty poor grounds for an execution.
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

GhostlyJoe said:
Imaginary bullets fired from imaginary guns don't go through anything. The presumption of "credible threat" is the exact opposite of due process. An unreliable report -- completely uninvestigated -- is pretty poor grounds for an execution.
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When you're told that you're going to be approaching an armed suspect who already threatened the complainant it would be absolutely asinine to assume that the threat was in any way "imaginary".
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

Lutherf said:
When you're told that you're going to be approaching an armed suspect who already threatened the complainant it would be absolutely asinine to assume that the threat was in any way "imaginary".
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The "threat" was a confused old man -- not armed. How about approaching a situation in which no violence has been committed -- no shots, no punches -- with a little patience and empathy? We need to weed these trigger-happy wusses out of the PD.
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

GhostlyJoe said:
The "threat" was a confused old man -- not armed. How about approaching a situation in which no violence has been committed -- no shots, no punches -- with a little patience and empathy? We need to weed these trigger-happy wusses out of the PD.
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This video shows what can happen when a cop ignores the fact that ANYBODY can be a threat.

 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

Lutherf said:
This video shows what can happen when a cop ignores the fact that ANYBODY can be a threat.

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Sometimes men beat their wives, so it's best to treat all men as wife-beaters ...

Sometimes dogs bite people, so it's best to treat all dogs as vicious man-eaters ...

Sometimes police officers shoot unarmed people with little provocation, so ...

In a free country, we don't cast everyone under a cloud of suspicion because of the actions of the very worst of us. "Prove your innocence immediately or die" is a terrible standard.
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

GhostlyJoe said:
Sometimes men beat their wives, so it's best to treat all men as wife-beaters ...

Sometimes dogs bite people, so it's best to treat all dogs as vicious man-eaters ...

Sometimes police officers shoot unarmed people with little provocation, so ...

In a free country, we don't cast everyone under a cloud of suspicion because of the actions of the very worst of us. "Prove your innocence immediately or die" is a terrible standard.
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I know that this is a hard concept for people that have never done the job before to grasp but when a cop is called to a violent situation he or she MUST respond based on the information they have. If they get bad information from a witness that is panicked they will react to that information.

Remember that guy that got shot in a Walmart a few years ago? The witness ended up getting charged for providing bad information which resulted in the suspect getting killed. This incident isn't any different and the same charges should apply.

If you're going to report a violent crime then it's YOUR responsibility to make sure you're as accurate as possible.
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

Lutherf said:
I know that this is a hard concept for people that have never done the job before to grasp but when a cop is called to a violent situation he or she MUST respond based on the information they have. If they get bad information from a witness that is panicked they will react to that information.

Remember that guy that got shot in a Walmart a few years ago? The witness ended up getting charged for providing bad information which resulted in the suspect getting killed. This incident isn't any different and the same charges should apply.

If you're going to report a violent crime then it's YOUR responsibility to make sure you're as accurate as possible.
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So the police are responsible for nothing they do. They're just automatons that react mindlessly and without regard for the well-being of the people they are policing. Your robot world is terrifying.

How about having some damn situational awareness? The fact that the caller was charged in the Walmart shooting while the cops were exonerated is itself a travesty of justice. That Walmart shooting is one of the most egregious examples of public execution by police. You would hold the untrained public responsible for misreading a situation but hold the trained and armed officers blameless. Sad.
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

GhostlyJoe said:
So the police are responsible for nothing they do. They're just automatons that react mindlessly and without regard for the well-being of the people they are policing. Your robot world is terrifying.

How about having some damn situational awareness? The fact that the caller was charged in the Walmart shooting while the cops were exonerated is itself a travesty of justice. That Walmart shooting is one of the most egregious examples of public execution by police. You would hold the untrained public responsible for misreading a situation but hold the trained and armed officers blameless. Sad.
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"Responsibility for thee but none for me"? Is that how you see things?

If you REALLY want to fix the issues surrounding police shootings and crime in general it's going to require everyone to play a part. Unfortunately, there are a whole lot of folks like you out there who don't feel any sense of responsibility for anything. They're perfectly content to pass the buck, point fingers and pass judgement then pat themselves on the back for being such fine human beings. Congratulations, this incident is part and parcel of what that attitude buys you.
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

Lutherf said:
"Responsibility for thee but none for me"? Is that how you see things?

If you REALLY want to fix the issues surrounding police shootings and crime in general it's going to require everyone to play a part. Unfortunately, there are a whole lot of folks like you out there who don't feel any sense of responsibility for anything. They're perfectly content to pass the buck, point fingers and pass judgement then pat themselves on the back for being such fine human beings. Congratulations, this incident is part and parcel of what that attitude buys you.
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How about the police start taking responsibility when they shoot someone? If you want to assign responsibility, start with the people who opened fire. Their choice is the one that led directly to a man's death. That choice was made based on flawed assumptions and a misreading of the situation.

I would argue that it's the people who excuse officers reflexively when unarmed people are gunned down who enable these acts to continue. An officer should have to fully justify every shot that's fired and face serious consequences for killing a citizen in error.
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

GhostlyJoe said:
How about the police start taking responsibility when they shoot someone? If you want to assign responsibility, start with the people who opened fire. Their choice is the one that led directly to a man's death. That choice was made based on flawed assumptions and a misreading of the situation.

I would argue that it's the people who excuse officers reflexively when unarmed people are gunned down who enable these acts to continue. An officer should have to fully justify every shot that's fired and face serious consequences for killing a citizen in error.
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If you really believe that the cops don't take responsibility for their actions then there isn't much else to discuss. If you really believe that the cops just go into these situations and start pulling the trigger for ****s and grins there isn't much else to discuss and, most importantly, if you really believe that the cops are the only ones who hold any responsibility for the incidents they respond to then, again, there is no point in discussion.

You have obviously made your mind up and are unwilling to entertain a perspective other than your own. So be it. Congratulations, you win the internet.
 
Re: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/13/unarmed-retiree-dementia-fatally-sh

Lutherf said:
If you really believe that the cops don't take responsibility for their actions then there isn't much else to discuss. If you really believe that the cops just go into these situations and start pulling the trigger for ****s and grins there isn't much else to discuss and, most importantly, if you really believe that the cops are the only ones who hold any responsibility for the incidents they respond to then, again, there is no point in discussion.

You have obviously made your mind up and are unwilling to entertain a perspective other than your own. So be it. Congratulations, you win the internet.
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Clearly, it was the unarmed man's fault. He should have know better than to go around the neighborhood not wielding a gun. Or it's society's fault for making the cops scared of old men and little boys. After all, some guy in a video shot a cop once, so who can blame them, right?
 
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