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Cruel and Unusual or Serves the Sucker Right?

calamity

calamity

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Apparently there was a slow death in Alabama's kill-chamber last night.

Witness: Condemned Alabama man coughed, heaved during execution - CNN.com

Ronald B. Smith, convicted in Alabama of a 1994 robbery and murder, was pronounced dead at 11:05 p.m. CT, 34 minutes after the execution began at the Holman Correctional Facility in Atmore, according to AL.com, whose reporter Kent Faulk was present.

During a 13-minute span toward the start of the process, Smith "appeared to be struggling for breath and heaved and coughed and clenched his left fist," and his left eye appeared to be slightly open at times, AL.com reported.
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Does this bother you?

I'm good with it, myself.
 
calamity said:
Apparently there was a slow death in Alabama's kill-chamber last night.

Witness: Condemned Alabama man coughed, heaved during execution - CNN.com



Does this bother you?

I'm good with it, myself.
Click to expand...

As a moral human being, it does bother me. While he was a convicted murder and deserved to be in jail, that doesn't mean we get to be unnecessarily cruel or apathetic. He may have been a murderer, but we don't need to stoop to his level. If we're going to have the DP, which IMO is a bad idea, then we cannot have 30 minute executions where people slowly die. There's no justice is torture or prolonged suffering, that's just revenge and the justice system should not be about revenge.

They either need to fix their process, or better yet, nix their DP.
 
Ikari said:
As a moral human being, it does bother me. While he was a convicted murder and deserved to be in jail, that doesn't mean we get to be unnecessarily cruel or apathetic. He may have been a murderer, but we don't need to stoop to his level. If we're going to have the DP, which IMO is a bad idea, then we cannot have 30 minute executions where people slowly die. There's no justice is torture or prolonged suffering, that's just revenge and the justice system should not be about revenge.

They either need to fix their process, or better yet, nix their DP.
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so ur plan is to just house the murderers forever, give them free food, a place to live, television, social time, workouts, music. sounds like soviet russia.
 
11Bravo said:
so ur plan is to just house the murderers forever, give them free food, a place to live, television, social time, workouts, music. sounds like soviet russia.
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Cheaper than killing them.

And it's nothing like Soviet Russia. I don't think a Russian Gulag is anything like that.
 
Ikari said:
Cheaper than killing them.

And it's nothing like Soviet Russia. I don't think a Russian Gulag is anything like that.
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cheaper than killin em? how much do bullets cost in colorado? lol. ur saying the lethal injection is the only way to kill someone? or the only current approved way
 
Ikari said:
As a moral human being, it does bother me. While he was a convicted murder and deserved to be in jail, that doesn't mean we get to be unnecessarily cruel or apathetic. He may have been a murderer, but we don't need to stoop to his level. If we're going to have the DP, which IMO is a bad idea, then we cannot have 30 minute executions where people slowly die. There's no justice is torture or prolonged suffering, that's just revenge and the justice system should not be about revenge.

They either need to fix their process, or better yet, nix their DP.
Click to expand...

Why does a murderer deserve to only be put into a jail with TV, healthcare, three square meals, a bed, heat, a pen pal, and probably even an internet connection? IMO, it's time we do something a little more punitive to our murderers.
 
There is no indication he was consciously suffering...only that his body was resisting dying. There are more effective ways to execute people and more effective drugs to use.
 
11Bravo said:
so ur plan is to just house the murderers forever, give them free food, a place to live, television, social time, workouts, music. sounds like soviet russia.
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Actually, it sounds like the US in states w/no DP.

Please try and know what you're talking about before actually talking.
 
VanceMack said:
There is no indication he was consciously suffering...only that his body was resisting dying. There are more effective ways to execute people and more effective drugs to use.
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There's no way to know if he wasn't.
 
Here's the problem with the death penalty:
1. Lots of convicted felons are exonerated after conviction. If they've been executed, it's too late to do anything about it.
2. Having the power of life and death is too much authority to give to the government.
3. Life in prison is a more severe punishment than a painless death.
4. A truly civilized society does not execute its citizens regardless of the crimes they may have committed.
5. There is no evidence that having the death penalty prevents heinous crimes.

So, life without parole is the best penalty for convicted murderers.
 
Ikari said:
As a moral human being, it does bother me. While he was a convicted murder and deserved to be in jail, that doesn't mean we get to be unnecessarily cruel or apathetic. He may have been a murderer, but we don't need to stoop to his level. If we're going to have the DP, which IMO is a bad idea, then we cannot have 30 minute executions where people slowly die. There's no justice is torture or prolonged suffering, that's just revenge and the justice system should not be about revenge.

They either need to fix their process, or better yet, nix their DP.
Click to expand...
See...you say taht...but then you would advocate life in a box where the individual is a constant threat to those required to care for him...and where you have zero care about their existence. You may have your reasons...but morality? Sorry...that doesnt add up.
 
Ikari said:
As a moral human being, it does bother me. While he was a convicted murder and deserved to be in jail, that doesn't mean we get to be unnecessarily cruel or apathetic. He may have been a murderer, but we don't need to stoop to his level. If we're going to have the DP, which IMO is a bad idea, then we cannot have 30 minute executions where people slowly die. There's no justice is torture or prolonged suffering, that's just revenge and the justice system should not be about revenge.

They either need to fix their process, or better yet, nix their DP.
Click to expand...

Then we should bring back the firing squad. You won't find many surviving 10 to the chest for more than a few seconds.
 
calamity said:
Why does a murderer deserve to only be put into a jail with TV, healthcare, three square meals, a bed, heat, and probably an internet connection? IMO, it's time we do something a little more punitive to our murderers.
Click to expand...

Because the DP is inherently broken, it's expensive, it's unnecessary, it provides no more safety to society on whole than Life in Prison Without Parole.

States had to put moretoriums on their DP because too many people innocent of the crimes charged were found to be on it. You may have one case where it's crystal clear, but there are many more where it's not as clear. So to get that one guy, you have to potentially take out others who are not guilty.

Death is permanent, and having a legal means through which the State can execute its own citizens is perhaps a power we no longer need to have government possessing. There's not really a call or need for the DP anymore, and given that its failure mode is State Execution of an innocent, it's best to err on the side of caution. If there was some grand impact of the DP, if it provided significatly greater security to society on whole, then perhaps we could still entertain it. But as it stands, there is little necessity for it any longer. It provides nothing to society that Life in Prison Without Parole doesn't already provide, it's expensive, its dangerous, its archaic.

We've outgrown the DP. Cheaper to lock them up for life, provides the same level of punishment and safety to the People.
 
VanceMack said:
See...you say taht...but then you would advocate life in a box where the individual is a constant threat to those required to care for him...and where you have zero care about their existence. You may have your reasons...but morality? Sorry...that doesnt add up.
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Just because you don't see it as such. The DP is dangerous and no longer serves a purpose. There is no need to have some legal means through which the government can kill its own citizens. We know that innocent people have been found on Death Row. So there is morality to it. In that the failure mode of the DP is an innocent person is killed, in that the DP provides no deterrent, in that the DP is excessively more expensive than LiPWOP.

We can achieve the same levels of safety and punishment without killing. With the added bonus that mistakes can be easier rectified if the individual is still alive vs. having been offed by the State.
 
Ikari said:
Cheaper than killing them.

And it's nothing like Soviet Russia. I don't think a Russian Gulag is anything like that.
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No it's not. What is more expensive is the endless appeals and decades before we get around to doing the deed.

Classic example: Starkweather/Fugate went on a murder spree from Omaha to eastern Colorado for a few days. When caught and convicted, Starkweather was executed 1 year to the day after the last murder. Fugate, due to her age, was housed for decades and finally released.

Which one do you cost the taxpayers the most?
 
jimbo said:
No it's not. What is more expensive is the endless appeals and decades before we get around to doing the deed.
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You mean making sure that if the State is going to kill someone, they're for real guilty? Yeah, that takes money.

DP costs us more, there's no debate about that. Not every case is some open/shut process. And if you're going to kill someone, you need to make damned sure they're for real guilty.

The DP is not necessary, but if you're going to have it, CO has some decent compromise wherein to get the DP, you need an excessive amount of evidence to demonstrate far "beyond reasonable doubt" that they are guilty.
 
Ikari said:
Just because you don't see it as such. The DP is dangerous and no longer serves a purpose. There is no need to have some legal means through which the government can kill its own citizens. We know that innocent people have been found on Death Row. So there is morality to it. In that the failure mode of the DP is an innocent person is killed, in that the DP provides no deterrent, in that the DP is excessively more expensive than LiPWOP.

We can achieve the same levels of safety and punishment without killing. With the added bonus that mistakes can be easier rectified if the individual is still alive vs. having been offed by the State.
Click to expand...
Of course the death penalty serves a purpose. It removes dangerous and incorrigible individuals from our society and prevents them from harming others.

"Over the last 18 months, officials say, Grade-B inmates have committed 67 attacks, triple the rate of only a few years ago. They include one attempted stabbing, 15 kicks and five slashings with crude prison-made knives and razors.
One convict sliced an officer's wrists and hands when he reached into the inmate's cell to deliver a food tray. And in five other incidents, small arrows fired from makeshift slingshots have stuck in the arms, necks and faces of guards who were not wearing protective shields."

Yes...guards are people too.

I would agree that the death penalty should only be used when guilt is beyond question. And frankly...Im fine with the whole "stick them in a supermax box for the rest of their life" idea if you prefer it. Just dont pretend its a morally superior position or that you actually care about the individuals.
 
Ikari said:
You mean making sure that if the State is going to kill someone, they're for real guilty? Yeah, that takes money.

DP costs us more, there's no debate about that. Not every case is some open/shut process. And if you're going to kill someone, you need to make damned sure they're for real guilty.

The DP is not necessary, but if you're going to have it, CO has some decent compromise wherein to get the DP, you need an excessive amount of evidence to demonstrate far "beyond reasonable doubt" that they are guilty.
Click to expand...

I'm all for making sure that the executed is guilty. I also know that there more than enough cases of DA's withholding evidence and prosecuting some they know are innocent. That disturbs me to the point that I think sometimes that these attorneys need to suffer the same fate as the wrongly convicted. But that's not the point. The point is executions need not cost much and confusing the appeals with the carrying out of the penalty is not relevant.
 
Ikari said:
Because the DP is inherently broken, it's expensive, it's unnecessary, it provides no more safety to society on whole than Life in Prison Without Parole.

States had to put moretoriums on their DP because too many people innocent of the crimes charged were found to be on it. You may have one case where it's crystal clear, but there are many more where it's not as clear. So to get that one guy, you have to potentially take out others who are not guilty.

Death is permanent, and having a legal means through which the State can execute its own citizens is perhaps a power we no longer need to have government possessing. There's not really a call or need for the DP anymore, and given that its failure mode is State Execution of an innocent, it's best to err on the side of caution. If there was some grand impact of the DP, if it provided significatly greater security to society on whole, then perhaps we could still entertain it. But as it stands, there is little necessity for it any longer. It provides nothing to society that Life in Prison Without Parole doesn't already provide, it's expensive, its dangerous, its archaic.

We've outgrown the DP. Cheaper to lock them up for life, provides the same level of punishment and safety to the People.
Click to expand...

I disagree. The DP has been used quite effectively to obtain confessions and to help locate the bodies of buried victims. It's rather amazing to see how quickly a cold-blooded murderer cuts a deal when he's staring at the threat of a needle.
 
Ikari said:
As a moral human being, it does bother me. While he was a convicted murder and deserved to be in jail, that doesn't mean we get to be unnecessarily cruel or apathetic. He may have been a murderer, but we don't need to stoop to his level. If we're going to have the DP, which IMO is a bad idea, then we cannot have 30 minute executions where people slowly die. There's no justice is torture or prolonged suffering, that's just revenge and the justice system should not be about revenge.

They either need to fix their process, or better yet, nix their DP.
Click to expand...


Ikari said:
Cheaper than killing them.
Click to expand...


Better yet, streamline the process and allow the appeals to be completed sooner, and then simply use a .99 cent bullet to the brain. No coughing, no heaving and less money.
 
VanceMack said:
Of course the death penalty serves a purpose. It removes dangerous and incorrigible individuals from our society and prevents them from harming others.
Click to expand...

To first order, that's what Life in Prison does as well.

VanceMack said:
"Over the last 18 months, officials say, Grade-B inmates have committed 67 attacks, triple the rate of only a few years ago. They include one attempted stabbing, 15 kicks and five slashings with crude prison-made knives and razors.
One convict sliced an officer's wrists and hands when he reached into the inmate's cell to deliver a food tray. And in five other incidents, small arrows fired from makeshift slingshots have stuck in the arms, necks and faces of guards who were not wearing protective shields."

Yes...guards are people too.

I would agree that the death penalty should only be used when guilt is beyond question. And frankly...Im fine with the whole "stick them in a supermax box for the rest of their life" idea if you prefer it. Just dont pretend its a morally superior position or that you actually care about the individuals.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of reforms that need to occur without our prison system, the entire thing has been min/maxed for profit by private prison corporations. It's left prisons overcrowded, dominated by gangs, and very dangerous. And it is a morally superior position, sorry, as there is no good argument to keep the DP in the modern era and that it's about the proper restraint of government force and removing a tool through which government can kill. "Kill the guy faster" is clearly a morally inferior position as it doesn't address the fundamental problems with the DP nor does it ensure that only those actually guilty are executed.
 
jimbo said:
I'm all for making sure that the executed is guilty. I also know that there more than enough cases of DA's withholding evidence and prosecuting some they know are innocent. That disturbs me to the point that I think sometimes that these attorneys need to suffer the same fate as the wrongly convicted. But that's not the point. The point is executions need not cost much and confusing the appeals with the carrying out of the penalty is not relevant.
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But you just said it, right? More than enough cases of DA's withholding evidence and this and that. The process of our "justice" system has become so tainted, that this is why we do need those appeals. So that we make sure.

Plus, given that there's no real aggregate advantage, why should we even get bogged down in any of this? Waste the time and money on a questionable system that has no deterrent values and is fundamentally flawed? We get the same with life in prison.
 
Ikari said:
To first order, that's what Life in Prison does as well.

There are plenty of reforms that need to occur without our prison system, the entire thing has been min/maxed for profit by private prison corporations. It's left prisons overcrowded, dominated by gangs, and very dangerous. And it is a morally superior position, sorry, as there is no good argument to keep the DP in the modern era and that it's about the proper restraint of government force and removing a tool through which government can kill. "Kill the guy faster" is clearly a morally inferior position as it doesn't address the fundamental problems with the DP nor does it ensure that only those actually guilty are executed.
Click to expand...
How, when presented with the obvious facts showing they DO in fact continue to harm others, do you press the claim that life in prison prevents them from harming others???

What standard of morality are you applying where you think executing a known murderer to prevent that individual from harming others is superior to putting them in a box and forgetting about them for the rest of their life?
 
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