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How many until we're even?

jaeger19 said:
Here is the synopsis of the study:

Employers' Replies to Racial Names

I don't know if you have a subscription that will allow you to download the full study.

And yes.. you are being purposely obtuse about the results.
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The synopsis gives one something to think about but it's still not measuring racism. It doesn't tell us who is receiving the resumes nor does it tell us how the various employers decided who to call back.

The actual study is here - http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873.pdf

Please note that on page 9, section 3.3, the selection process for which businesses would be receiving the fake resumes was severely restricted. Also notice that "nearly exclusively" they used female names for the clerical and admin jobs. That, by itself, is prejudicial. Notice that the seem to have only given "high quality" resumes an email address. Even the authors of the study note several shortcomings with it.

Frankly, this study strikes me as being designed with a particular bias already built in. The idea of sending resumes out shotgun style is among the worst ways to find a job and often nets only the most replaceable (low wage) jobs in the market. It definitely does not prove racism. Employers make hiring, and even callback decisions based on factors such as how close a person lives to the business location and how well the job skills listed on the resume match the needs for a given position. It also doesn't take into consideration how many resumes were received for a given job. If an employer takes in 1000 resumes for 2 positions they simply aren't going to call everyone back. "Jamal" might have a bachelors degree and a solid work history but if the job is for floor sales at a sporting goods store which pays $8.50/hr and "Jamal" lives 15 miles from the store his resume doesn't look any better than that of "Joe" who lives 3 miles away and only graduated high school.
 
Lutherf said:
St. Louis County police officer shot while answering disturbance call has died | Law and order | stltoday.com


L.A. County sheriff's sergeant is killed in Lancaster shooting; suspect is in custody - LA Times


Man charged with murder after Detroit officer dies of wound


Alabama corrections officer, decorated veteran dies after being stabbed by inmate | AL.com


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/09/14/fugitive-accused-of-killing-north-carolina-police-officer-arrested-in-rhode-island/?utm_term=.1c7c0a63203f

These are just the cops who got killed by shooting or stabbing in the last month. It doesn't include cops who got injured but lived. It doesn't include cops who got run over by drunk drivers or died some other way.

How many more cops have to die before BLM and their toadies figure it's "even"? How many more have to die before the armchair quarterbacks understand that a cop yelling at someone to show their hands isn't "escalating the situation"?

Most of the time cops don't know the person they are engaging. They don't know if the person has a warrant or has a mental health issue or is on drugs. Because of that they take steps to keep themselves and the person they are engaging safe. That might well include ordering the person to stand still or get on the ground. It might involve handcuffing the person or putting them in a patrol car until they get the situation sorted out. That isn't "escalating" the situation. It isn't a violation of anyone's rights. It's prudent and practical police procedure.
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They will never think it will be even...
 
Lutherf said:
The synopsis gives one something to think about but it's still not measuring racism. It doesn't tell us who is receiving the resumes nor does it tell us how the various employers decided who to call back.

The actual study is here - http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873.pdf

Please note that on page 9, section 3.3, the selection process for which businesses would be receiving the fake resumes was severely restricted. Also notice that "nearly exclusively" they used female names for the clerical and admin jobs. That, by itself, is prejudicial. Notice that the seem to have only given "high quality" resumes an email address. Even the authors of the study note several shortcomings with it.

Frankly, this study strikes me as being designed with a particular bias already built in. The idea of sending resumes out shotgun style is among the worst ways to find a job and often nets only the most replaceable (low wage) jobs in the market. It definitely does not prove racism. Employers make hiring, and even callback decisions based on factors such as how close a person lives to the business location and how well the job skills listed on the resume match the needs for a given position. It also doesn't take into consideration how many resumes were received for a given job. If an employer takes in 1000 resumes for 2 positions they simply aren't going to call everyone back. "Jamal" might have a bachelors degree and a solid work history but if the job is for floor sales at a sporting goods store which pays $8.50/hr and "Jamal" lives 15 miles from the store his resume doesn't look any better than that of "Joe" who lives 3 miles away and only graduated high school.
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And this is the reason that the black community is so outraged. I presented a study that clearly shows racism.. and yet.. you simply cannot believe it.

You just came up with an excuse of

Employers make hiring, and even callback decisions based on factors such as how close a person lives to the business location and how well the job skills listed on the resume match the needs for a given position. It also doesn't take into consideration how many resumes were received for a given job. If an employer takes in 1000 resumes for 2 positions they simply aren't going to call everyone back. "Jamal" might have a bachelors degree and a solid work history but if the job is for floor sales at a sporting goods store which pays $8.50/hr and "Jamal" lives 15 miles from the store his resume doesn't look any better than that of "Joe" who lives 3 miles away and only graduated high school
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Yeah.. you would have a point... IF THEY ONLY PUT OUT 20 resumes. INSTEAD THEY PUT OUT 5,000 resumes. That is a huge N that statistically nullifies that type of bias.

In fact everything you bring up is statistically accounted for.

Look.. I get it.. I am white... you don't want to believe it.. you don't want to see and that's that. but the reality is that its there. Its pervasive.. it exists.

And the denial..? It just makes it worse.
 
jaeger19 said:
And this is the reason that the black community is so outraged. I presented a study that clearly shows racism.. and yet.. you simply cannot believe it.

You just came up with an excuse of



Yeah.. you would have a point... IF THEY ONLY PUT OUT 20 resumes. INSTEAD THEY PUT OUT 5,000 resumes. That is a huge N that statistically nullifies that type of bias.

In fact everything you bring up is statistically accounted for.

Look.. I get it.. I am white... you don't want to believe it.. you don't want to see and that's that. but the reality is that its there. Its pervasive.. it exists.

And the denial..? It just makes it worse.
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So since it's a study I'm supposed to assume that every employer who received the resumes is white? I'm supposed to assume that everyone who made a decision on who to call back is white? Is it still racism if a black employer discards a resume because of a "black sounding" name?

Like I said, it's an interesting study but it doesn't prove racism.
 
bg85 said:
no, he's saying that the number of cops who are killed is significant compared to the number of black folks who get killed by cops. the graph shows less than 0.5 officer fatalities per 1,000,000 residents in the latest data point.
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6 Years ago........
 
Lutherf said:
So since it's a study I'm supposed to assume that every employer who received the resumes is white? I'm supposed to assume that everyone who made a decision on who to call back is white? Is it still racism if a black employer discards a resume because of a "black sounding" name?

Like I said, it's an interesting study but it doesn't prove racism.
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Actually no.. you don't have to assume that every employer who received the resume is white. And no.. you don't have to assume that everyone who had to call back is white as well.

And yes.. its still racism if a black person discards a resume because of a black sounding name. Or if he discards a resume simply because of a white sounding name.

Conclusion. The study clearly shows that simply the perception of whether an applicant is white.. or black.. significantly affects employment potential. Not height, weight, appearance or any other "outstanding feature".

Simply whether the employer "thinks" you may be white or black.

and the study clearly shows that education to "better oneself".. has less of an effect on hiring for those perceived as African American.. than those perceived as white.

I get it man. I am white. I didn't want to believe it either. but its there.. its real.. and the denial is not helping matters.
 
jaeger19 said:
Actually no.. you don't have to assume that every employer who received the resume is white. And no.. you don't have to assume that everyone who had to call back is white as well.

And yes.. its still racism if a black person discards a resume because of a black sounding name. Or if he discards a resume simply because of a white sounding name.

Conclusion. The study clearly shows that simply the perception of whether an applicant is white.. or black.. significantly affects employment potential. Not height, weight, appearance or any other "outstanding feature".

Simply whether the employer "thinks" you may be white or black.

and the study clearly shows that education to "better oneself".. has less of an effect on hiring for those perceived as African American.. than those perceived as white.

I get it man. I am white. I didn't want to believe it either. but its there.. its real.. and the denial is not helping matters.
Click to expand...

Here's what I know about racism, if you look for it you'll find it. If you look for a penny on the ground you'll find one of those too. If you look for a dust bunny in your house you'll find that too.

Finding a dust bunny doesn't mean your house is a mess. Finding a penny doesn't mean the streets are paved with copper and finding racism doesn't mean it's systemic.

It's really easy to focus on negative aspects of life but if you do you're going to miss out on all the wonderful things that are out there. It means that you're going to miss opportunities.

If you really believe that employers aren't going to call you back because your name is Jamal Smith then just put J. Smith on the resume.

Look, I agree that a name on a resume can make a difference. I disagree, however, that it makes a difference just because the name sounds Black. Here's why I disagree. Back 70 years ago my grandfather started selling insurance. His territory was in rural upstate New York and there was a large Italian population in the area. His last name was Finocciaro and that helped him sell record numbers of policies. He was one of the top agents for New York Life working out of a town of less than 10,000. A few years later he decided to move to the city. His sales were still good but he felt like he was struggling. He decided to change his name to Foster and, once again, climbed to the top of the sales ladder. The perception of nationality was real and I still see it today when I head back home. If I go back in election season I can tell if I'm in a Jewish neighborhood because most of the signs are "Goldstein" or "Katz". If I'm in an Italian neighborhood the signs are all "Cippolini" or "DeAngelo". That, however, doesn't mean that there is animosity in the Jewish neighborhoods toward the Italian neighborhoods. It's simply a matter of ethnocentricity.

Maybe it isn't "fair" but it is the way the world works and it's a hell of a lot easier to figure out how to work with the world than it is to get the world to change.
 
Lutherf said:
Here's what I know about racism, if you look for it you'll find it. If you look for a penny on the ground you'll find one of those too. If you look for a dust bunny in your house you'll find that too.

.
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here is what I know about racism. If you look for it you will find it. If you look for a dust bunny in your house.. you will probably find it. If you find 5,000 dust bunnies in your house.. you are living in a crap hole.

trying to ignore the dust bunnies does not make the fact that you live in a crap hole go away.

Trying to do something about the dust bunnies.. does NOT mean that you have to miss getting an education, or any other opportunities out there. What you are doing is making things better.

PLEASE tell me the opportunities that my son is missing because he is acknowledging that he faces racism just about every day in school.

I want you to detail the opportunities he is missing because he and I recognize that things are different for him versus the other kids.. and that should not be so.

I want to hear you justify to me.. why my son should have to endure the racist comments and prejudice that he faces.

You want to understand why the African American population is pissed? Its because of the BS that you just slung sir. The study just showed it was a SIGNIFICANT FACTOR in employment.

and your answer? Well gee.. just put J..instead of jamal.

Holy crap.
 
jaeger19 said:
here is what I know about racism. If you look for it you will find it. If you look for a dust bunny in your house.. you will probably find it. If you find 5,000 dust bunnies in your house.. you are living in a crap hole.

trying to ignore the dust bunnies does not make the fact that you live in a crap hole go away.

Trying to do something about the dust bunnies.. does NOT mean that you have to miss getting an education, or any other opportunities out there. What you are doing is making things better.

PLEASE tell me the opportunities that my son is missing because he is acknowledging that he faces racism just about every day in school.

I want you to detail the opportunities he is missing because he and I recognize that things are different for him versus the other kids.. and that should not be so.

I want to hear you justify to me.. why my son should have to endure the racist comments and prejudice that he faces.

You want to understand why the African American population is pissed? Its because of the BS that you just slung sir. The study just showed it was a SIGNIFICANT FACTOR in employment.

and your answer? Well gee.. just put J..instead of jamal.

Holy crap.
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Try the same experiment with Polish names instead of American names, get those results then get back to me.
 
Lutherf said:
Try the same experiment with Polish names instead of American names, get those results then get back to me.
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Polish names are American names.

No need to get back to you.
 
jaeger19 said:
Polish names are American names.

No need to get back to you.
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Well, the thread actually had some potential for discussion but I guess, like most of the other threads on the subject, it just ends up becoming a lecture. Thanks for your participation.
 
jaeger19 said:
the above research shows that is not true. that even getting better education.. did not raise the ability to be employed if you were perceived to be African American.. as much as it did if you were perceived to be white.
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There is a study that more black CEO's than white CEO's have baby faces.
 
bg85 said:
no, he's saying that the number of cops who are killed is significant compared to the number of black folks who get killed by cops. the graph shows less than 0.5 officer fatalities per 1,000,000 residents in the latest data point.
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That graph shows the latest date was 6 years ago.

The climate is very different today.
 
jaeger19 said:
You mean like shooting a guy lying on the ground with his hands in the air?

Or shooting a guy with his hands in the air walking back to his stalled car?
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What happened to the officer that did the shooting in those cases?
 
Lutherf said:
Well, the thread actually had some potential for discussion but I guess, like most of the other threads on the subject, it just ends up becoming a lecture. Thanks for your participation.
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Yes.. the thread had potential for discussion.. but you have to be open to discussion.
 
Mason66 said:
What happened to the officer that did the shooting in those cases?
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I think the one that shot the fellow with his hands in the air back to his stalled vehicle has now been charged.

So far I haven't found that anything happened to the officer that shot the fellow lying on the ground with his hands in the air.
 
jaeger19 said:
Actually no.. you don't have to assume that every employer who received the resume is white. And no.. you don't have to assume that everyone who had to call back is white as well.

And yes.. its still racism if a black person discards a resume because of a black sounding name. Or if he discards a resume simply because of a white sounding name.

Conclusion. The study clearly shows that simply the perception of whether an applicant is white.. or black.. significantly affects employment potential. Not height, weight, appearance or any other "outstanding feature".

Simply whether the employer "thinks" you may be white or black.

and the study clearly shows that education to "better oneself".. has less of an effect on hiring for those perceived as African American.. than those perceived as white.

I get it man. I am white. I didn't want to believe it either. but its there.. its real.. and the denial is not helping matters.
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Is it not racist to claim that a name is "Black Sounding" ????
 
jaeger19 said:
Yes.. the thread had potential for discussion.. but you have to be open to discussion.
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You didn't seem too open to the discussion that polish sounding names could also be discriminated against........

You shut that **** down with a snide remark rather quickly... That is what he was referring to by the way.
 
Mason66 said:
That graph shows the latest date was 6 years ago.

The climate is very different today.
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is it? how many deaths per million residents for officers this year and last year?
 
Caine said:
You didn't seem too open to the discussion that polish sounding names could also be discriminated against........

You shut that **** down with a snide remark rather quickly... That is what he was referring to by the way.
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Because its a red herring to argue that because polish names.. or muslim names.. or "gay sounding" names might be discriminated against.. that someone detracts from the facts of the study.
 
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