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Armed or Unarmed: How quickly can you make the decision?

blackjack50

blackjack50

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The video is graphic so I just posted the link. This is something to consider in the ongoing discussions about law enforcement. These videos are showed in training. And they are real. This is what happens when an officer gets too lax on a lunatic or a hardened criminal, or someone who is just out of their mind on whatever drugs they are on.

So if you can watch this video, maybe take it in and understand that these decisions are made in seconds. And often they are reactions. And that is much slower. So it doesn't matter if it is a "vape pen" or a "book." If you start acting like you have a weapon...how do you expect anyone human to react? Not just the police. Any human would take measures to protect themselves.

And again. Graphic. Do not watch if you don't want to see the sad parts of our society.

https://youtu.be/0K2-NEo3NVU


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
It is a tragic video,, And there is probably hundred's more of those situations, And don't forget physical assault ( not Guns ) that police face as well.

I always felt that police should travel in pairs, ( and some do) a single cop doing a traffic stop at 3AM is more of a target than 2, One to approach the car, another to cover him.

I will say this,, That guy in the red truck probably did not walk away..

djl
 
bmr528 said:
It is a tragic video,, And there is probably hundred's more of those situations, And don't forget physical assault ( not Guns ) that police face as well.

I always felt that police should travel in pairs, ( and some do) a single cop doing a traffic stop at 3AM is more of a target than 2, One to approach the car, another to cover him.

I will say this,, That guy in the red truck probably did not walk away..

djl
Click to expand...

Yea. Not an easy video at all. And it is a reality of the job that people don't want to acknowledge. They want to pretend that officers who are concerned about this are "cowardly" as if "bravery" stops bullets. Sadly we don't have enough officers in general, let alone enough to do 2 to a patrol.


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I am not looking at the video

it is human to defend ones self yes, however there are thousands of situations that go wrong where police respond correctly, responsibly, so

why is that?

why do some respond badly

we need to figure that out
 
blackjack50 said:
The video is graphic so I just posted the link. This is something to consider in the ongoing discussions about law enforcement. These videos are showed in training. And they are real. This is what happens when an officer gets too lax on a lunatic or a hardened criminal, or someone who is just out of their mind on whatever drugs they are on.

So if you can watch this video, maybe take it in and understand that these decisions are made in seconds. And often they are reactions. And that is much slower. So it doesn't matter if it is a "vape pen" or a "book." If you start acting like you have a weapon...how do you expect anyone human to react? Not just the police. Any human would take measures to protect themselves.

And again. Graphic. Do not watch if you don't want to see the sad parts of our society.

https://youtu.be/0K2-NEo3NVU


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting this.

Sadly, it appears it didn't get much traction, and it should.

Unfortunately, there are many who's political agenda handicaps their judgement, and requires them to deny the reality of the threat facing law enforcement, as shown so vividly in the video.

The imperative for these types is to create social chaos in order to bend society to their objectives. I imagine they get excited by the deaths for they are food for their agenda.
 
ocean515 said:
Thanks for posting this.

Sadly, it appears it didn't get much traction, and it should.

Unfortunately, there are many who's political agenda handicaps their judgement, and requires them to deny the reality of the threat facing law enforcement, as shown so vividly in the video.

The imperative for these types is to create social chaos in order to bend society to their objectives. I imagine they get excited by the deaths for they are food for their agenda.
Click to expand...

I don't know if they get excited, but they certainly do see it as proof they are right. I think the problem is that most people have no frame of reference for this. Not all military personnel are in combat. So they are out. The combat guys are not 100% able to compare because it is a different objective with different methods of operation. And one job they can justify most of their actions because they are in "combat." The rules of engagement are vastly different. And I'm not saying they are equal...just vastly different. Firemen and paramedics can understand because they deal with the dregs too. But in a much different way.

But yes. I think people ignore that the officers are people. They ignore that the job has this as a real hazard every time. And it really doesn't matter if you are innocent, it would be prudent to consider that this is a thought in the back of the minds of most officers on every stop. And that should be something to consider when you discuss how they should "train."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
_Sal said:
I am not looking at the video

it is human to defend ones self yes, however there are thousands of situations that go wrong where police respond correctly, responsibly, so

why is that?

why do some respond badly

we need to figure that out
Click to expand...

I agree. And I think it is part psychological, part training, and a big part is based on what is happening and the reflexes that kick in.


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blackjack50 said:
I agree. And I think it is part psychological, part training, and a big part is based on what is happening and the reflexes that kick in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I agree

I would say IQ and EQ play a massive part ... both intelligence and emotional balance give better response overall because they just have to

it's a given and can't be argued
 
I've been in some tough situations on traffic stops and domestic calls. I normally didn't pull my pistol like these people do in all the videos we see. Old school police will just run up and punch you in the mouth if you don't comply. It takes a real scaredy cat to just shoot someone because you're afraid.

And I didn't watch the video. Perhaps there was a justification.
 
I don't put much stock in the, "OMG!!! He was unarmed.", chants. Far too often we don't find this out until well after it's all done. It's not fair to make that claim when the officer probably didn't know definitively at the crucial moment.
 
Police officers across the country have contact with millions of citizens where a ticket is written, a warning is given, an arrest is made or some type of aid is rendered. When a shooting happens it is a rare event considering the number of police/citizen contacts. Police officers have close to an impossible task. Their job reminds me of a plane crash. Planes fly everyday across the country. Million and millions of people get to their destination with no problem. Flying is much safer that driving. But when an accident happens it's splashed across newspapers. The *hit hits the fan.

There are some officers who should not be in uniform and it’s up to the police managers and prosecuting attorneys to see that they are removed and face justice. But to lump in all officers as XXXXX. Is not fair and it really hurts our whole society. The path we as a society our heading down now won’t turn out well for anyone. Absolutely no type of respect shown to police officers. A breakdown of law and order is happening across the country at every level.
 
Common Sense 1 said:
Police officers across the country have contact with millions of citizens where a ticket is written, a warning is given, an arrest is made or some type of aid is rendered. When a shooting happens it is a rare event considering the number of police/citizen contacts. Police officers have close to an impossible task. Their job reminds me of a plane crash. Planes fly everyday across the country. Million and millions of people get to their destination with no problem. Flying is much safer that driving. But when an accident happens it's splashed across newspapers. The *hit hits the fan.

There are some officers who should not be in uniform and it’s up to the police managers and prosecuting attorneys to see that they are removed and face justice. But to lump in all officers as XXXXX. Is not fair and it really hurts our whole society. The path we as a society our heading down now won’t turn out well for anyone. Absolutely no type of respect shown to police officers. A breakdown of law and order is happening across the country at every level.
Click to expand...
I agree with this. The biggest thing that police can do to begin to resolve issues and gain some respect back would be to get rid of the truly bad cops. And if the numbers of truly bad cops are as small as some would like us to believe, I fail to see why this would be a problem for anybody.
 
blackjack50 said:
The video is graphic so I just posted the link. This is something to consider in the ongoing discussions about law enforcement. These videos are showed in training. And they are real. This is what happens when an officer gets too lax on a lunatic or a hardened criminal, or someone who is just out of their mind on whatever drugs they are on.

So if you can watch this video, maybe take it in and understand that these decisions are made in seconds. And often they are reactions. And that is much slower. So it doesn't matter if it is a "vape pen" or a "book." If you start acting like you have a weapon...how do you expect anyone human to react? Not just the police. Any human would take measures to protect themselves.

And again. Graphic. Do not watch if you don't want to see the sad parts of our society.

https://youtu.be/0K2-NEo3NVU


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

And what happens when an officer reacts in the opposite direction from "too lax"?

An innocent person usually dies.

Can't we find the middle somewhere?
 
I was a police officer for thirty years. There was a time when officers accepted the fact that they would probably get hurt at some times in their career and might get killed. It was a risk they accepted. Those days are gone.

I haven't checked in years but I checked the stats once and most officers killed were killed in situations where there were more than one officer present. That's reasonable when you consider risky calls get extra coverage. The highway patrolman in our state who picked up a 14-year old boy and was sitting in the car talking to him when he was shot in the head are the rare exception.

I didn't support two-man units and I still don't.
 
blackjack50 said:
The video is graphic so I just posted the link. This is something to consider in the ongoing discussions about law enforcement. These videos are showed in training. And they are real. This is what happens when an officer gets too lax on a lunatic or a hardened criminal, or someone who is just out of their mind on whatever drugs they are on.

So if you can watch this video, maybe take it in and understand that these decisions are made in seconds. And often they are reactions. And that is much slower. So it doesn't matter if it is a "vape pen" or a "book." If you start acting like you have a weapon...how do you expect anyone human to react? Not just the police. Any human would take measures to protect themselves.

And again. Graphic. Do not watch if you don't want to see the sad parts of our society.

https://youtu.be/0K2-NEo3NVU


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting this. There are many very dangerous situations out there, just like these, and many with multiple people in the vehicle.

One of my first solo traffic stops, was a car load of 7 teenagers in a 4 door sedan. When the driver stopped, they all exited the vehicle at the same time. Lucky for me, none were armed or intended any harm to me. They were just more curious than anything else.
Had they been armed and hostile, I would have been overwhelmed and my 6 shot revolver would not have helped a whole lot.
This vid also illustrates why gun laws are ignored by criminals and pretty much ineffective.
 
ocean515 said:
Thanks for posting this.

Sadly, it appears it didn't get much traction, and it should.

Unfortunately, there are many who's political agenda handicaps their judgement, and requires them to deny the reality of the threat facing law enforcement, as shown so vividly in the video.

The imperative for these types is to create social chaos in order to bend society to their objectives. I imagine they get excited by the deaths for they are food for their agenda.
Click to expand...

Spot on!! :thumbs::thumbs:


blackjack50 said:
I agree. And I think it is part psychological, part training, and a big part is based on what is happening and the reflexes that kick in.
Click to expand...

That's exactly why I could never understand some cops avoiding training, if they could, when I when was a police firearms instructor.
Or the cops that I knew, who really didn't like guns.

Brewdog said:
I've been in some tough situations on traffic stops and domestic calls. I normally didn't pull my pistol like these people do in all the videos we see. Old school police will just run up and punch you in the mouth if you don't comply. It takes a real scaredy cat to just shoot someone because you're afraid.

And I didn't watch the video. Perhaps there was a justification.
Click to expand...

Correct. I was old school and my baton and Kel-Lite were used extensively in close quarters. One old salt I knew, was real slick in the use of his Colt Python as a club to the side of the perp's head and another who left knurling and the words Kel-Lite, tattooed on their skin.

radcen said:
I don't put much stock in the, "OMG!!! He was unarmed.", chants. Far too often we don't find this out until well after it's all done. It's not fair to make that claim when the officer probably didn't know definitively at the crucial moment.
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
Common Sense 1 said:
Police officers across the country have contact with millions of citizens where a ticket is written, a warning is given, an arrest is made or some type of aid is rendered. When a shooting happens it is a rare event considering the number of police/citizen contacts. Police officers have close to an impossible task. Their job reminds me of a plane crash. Planes fly everyday across the country. Million and millions of people get to their destination with no problem. Flying is much safer that driving. But when an accident happens it's splashed across newspapers. The *hit hits the fan.

There are some officers who should not be in uniform and it’s up to the police managers and prosecuting attorneys to see that they are removed and face justice. But to lump in all officers as XXXXX. Is not fair and it really hurts our whole society. The path we as a society our heading down now won’t turn out well for anyone. Absolutely no type of respect shown to police officers. A breakdown of law and order is happening across the country at every level.
Click to expand...

It absolutely is ....and getting worse by the day.

radcen said:
I agree with this. The biggest thing that police can do to begin to resolve issues and gain some respect back would be to get rid of the truly bad cops. And if the numbers of truly bad cops are as small as some would like us to believe, I fail to see why this would be a problem for anybody.
Click to expand...

Hard to do, the thin blue line is very tight.

Thoreau72 said:
And what happens when an officer reacts in the opposite direction from "too lax"?

An innocent person usually dies.

Can't we find the middle somewhere?
Click to expand...

Every situation is unique ...............and the middle is an ever floating goal.

Patrickt said:
I was a police officer for thirty years. There was a time when officers accepted the fact that they would probably get hurt at some times in their career and might get killed. It was a risk they accepted. Those days are gone.

I haven't checked in years but I checked the stats once and most officers killed were killed in situations where there were more than one officer present. That's reasonable when you consider risky calls get extra coverage. The highway patrolman in our state who picked up a 14-year old boy and was sitting in the car talking to him when he was shot in the head are the rare exception.

I didn't support two-man units and I still don't.
Click to expand...

I have mixed feelings about it. We were mostly solo in both departments that I worked for. Occasionally a two many unit.

The exceptions were the three riots I was involved in, whereby we rode 4 to a vehicle at times.
 
MickeyW: "It absolutely is ....and getting worse by the day."

I tend to agree but not in a way you mean. I heard that same whine from cops for the thirty years I worked and then another five before I left town. The biggest change in those years wasn't in the people we dealt with. It was with the cops. The cops went from being working class guys who'd done their time in the military and might or might not have graduated from college to being something above middle class, who wouldn't think of doing time in the military, and had never worked a grunt job like a factory or construction. The cops today look at people in a working-class bar as being lesser than them. They're different from the cops who now live in gated communities with lawyers and accountants for neighbors.

One of the things that shocked me with the incident involving Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, was that in a town of 60,000 people the people officer did not know Michael Brown on sight. A man that big who was comfortable robbing a store with strongarm in broad daylight should have been well known by the police.

I was also shocked to hear police officers at Columbine High talk about sitting in the parking lot listening to gunshots from the school while they waited for the SWAT team. That shocked me.
 
Patrickt said:
MickeyW: "It absolutely is ....and getting worse by the day."

I tend to agree but not in a way you mean. I heard that same whine from cops for the thirty years I worked and then another five before I left town. The biggest change in those years wasn't in the people we dealt with. It was with the cops. The cops went from being working class guys who'd done their time in the military and might or might not have graduated from college to being something above middle class, who wouldn't think of doing time in the military, and had never worked a grunt job like a factory or construction. The cops today look at people in a working-class bar as being lesser than them. They're different from the cops who now live in gated communities with lawyers and accountants for neighbors.

One of the things that shocked me with the incident involving Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, was that in a town of 60,000 people the people officer did not know Michael Brown on sight. A man that big who was comfortable robbing a store with strongarm in broad daylight should have been well known by the police.

I was also shocked to hear police officers at Columbine High talk about sitting in the parking lot listening to gunshots from the school while they waited for the SWAT team. That shocked me.
Click to expand...

You better come back to town.......things are far worse, with far less respect for everyone in general...not just cops.

Yes, many cops are well paid these days, earning far more than I ever made with regards to inflation. In my day, a cop had to be a Lt. or above, and 10 years of service or more, in order to afford to live in those gated communities.
And that type of cop isn't in a lot of places, certainly none in my part of Oregon. Many around here, own small farms or ranches after a few years of service, some have even started vineyards....and they drive pickup trucks. Nothing like what I saw as a Calif. officer, where in my day the average guy drove a Chevy or Ford and had a modest house in the decent part of town. Now, Mercedes, Caddys or Lexus and their kids go to private schools and they live in upscale homes.
Yes, many of the new breed are mostly college educated, arrogant, egotistical and removed from the people they serve...today, living away from town, or in the next town, is a good thing.
That waiting for SWAT to arrive, was/is a total idiotic decision by management.
Knowing the bad guys? Depends on the size of the town. I met bad guys every day from outside the area, who I never saw before.
Maybe Michael Brown was in a neighborhood never served by that cop, until that day.
 
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