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Discussion on Police killing of Black people and out of propotion

PoS said:
A lot of it has to do with the militarization due to the drug war and sovereign immunity. If we cancel the war on drugs and make each and every police officer personally liable for their actions then it would go a long way in curbing abuses.
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Every officer is already liable for his actions. WTH are you talking about?
 
RetiredUSN said:
Here are a few numbers from 2013:

Of the 49,851 officers who were assaulted in 2013, 14,565 (29.2 percent) sustained injuries.
31.0 percent of the officers who were attacked with personal weapons (e.g., hands, fists, or feet) suffered injuries.
14.6 percent of the officers who were assaulted with knives or other cutting instruments were injured.
10.9 percent of officers who were attacked with firearms were injured.
27.0 percent of officers who were attacked with other dangerous weapons were injured


https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/leoka/2013/officers-assaulted/assaults_topic_page_-2013


And we wonder why the police shoot?
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In some situations, yes. Clearly we need to reevaluate the tactics the government uses when interacting against the citizenry. Just because a job may be "dangerous" (crab fishing is more so) doesn't give government agents the go ahead to shoot first and ask questions later.

How many died? I see you conveniently skip over that each time.
 
Henrin said:
So the big black guy that was selling illegal cigarettes and was put in choke hold after apparently resisting arrest(where in the **** he resisted arrest I still can't figure out) didn't die because of the actions of the cop? How long do you think he would have lived if someone never put him in a choke hold?
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That isn't one of those cases... so mentioning exited delirium in conjunction with it is pointless.

However, the man's poor health, not the choke hold, is what killed him. He didn't possess the good health for his body to sustain a fight with police. The choke hold had little (not nothing) to do with it. A healthy person would have lived.
 
Top Cat said:
How ironic that you would claim to have done hours of research? I seem to recall that you had the Dallas case solved before the ink was dry of the police reports. Why should anyone believe you now? :rolleyes:
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Do you have a comment as to the topic of this thread? Or are you trying to make me the topic, as usual?
 
Ikari said:
It's not only a black problem. This is a government vs. the People problem. It's all of our problems. Government unrestrained runs rampant over the rights and liberties of The People
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People do not have the rights and liberties of attacking law enforcement in performance of their duties.

This isn't some old school days of "Trial by combat".
 
Ikari said:
In some situations, yes. Clearly we need to reevaluate the tactics the government uses when interacting against the citizenry. Just because a job may be "dangerous" (crab fishing is more so) doesn't give government agents the go ahead to shoot first and ask questions later.

How many died? I see you conveniently skip over that each time.
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Comparing police use of force due to the dangerous nature of their work to crab fishing is completely dishonest.

How many crab fisherman are shot by crabs?
 
Ikari said:
In some situations, yes. Clearly we need to reevaluate the tactics the government uses when interacting against the citizenry. Just because a job may be "dangerous" (crab fishing is more so) doesn't give government agents the go ahead to shoot first and ask questions later.

How many died? I see you conveniently skip over that each time.
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You go after a cop with intent to hurt him/her...................they have ever right to blow your **** away. The USSC says so.

Cops are not required to be punching bags or targets. They do a damn good job of not killing people, even while being justified if they had.

People like you see a few bad incidents and pizz all over yourselves, and then play the righteous game.
 
Caine said:
Do you have a comment as to the topic of this thread? Or are you trying to make me the topic, as usual?
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I asked you a simple question.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Well I found two videos of the incident: (CAUTION: Graphic content)

The first is Youtube raw footage:

<edited for brevity>
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I agree with you fully in general here, but not (as of yet) on this specific incident.

I can't see whether the shooting victim is reaching for his gun, or not.

He does have a gun and appears to be resisting, so if these officers testify he was struggling and reaching for his gun, and there's no conclusive proof brought forth that he wasn't, we may have to give it to the officers here.

Perhaps for court or review the video can be enhanced.

But my opinion on this specific case does not negate my being in agreement with you concerning the totality of the general problem.
 
Ikari said:
I didn't present the number, I just used the number Cain presented.
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Either way, It's been brought up before, pretty much debunked.
 
Caine said:
Comparing police use of force due to the dangerous nature of their work to crab fishing is completely dishonest.

How many crab fisherman are shot by crabs?
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Well, this may change, because the NRA has been lobbying pretty hard for crab carry laws at the state level!
 
Ikari said:
I think the bigger problem is the near 1200 deaths at the hands of the police and the sometimes very questionable use of deadly force.
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Out of a population of 318,900,000.
A very insignificant amount.
And the very few questionable uses of deadly force is even a more insignificant number than the first.
 
Caine said:
I am personally tired of hearing that black people are "twice as likely" to be killed by police than others. So lets talk figures. I'll use 2015 data for this. In 2015, 1146 people were killed by police or in police custody. 306 of them were black, and 581 were white, the rest were of other races, but nobody seems to care about those other races in this discussion. Now, while people correctly state that blacks make up a much smaller part of the population than whites, what should be focused on is that blacks make up a higher part of the criminal element. FBI crime statistics show that of violent crime, blacks committed 37.7% of it. Yet blacks comprised of only 26.7% of those killed by police or in police custody. So... where is the problem?

As 2015 FBI data isn't available just yet, Im using 2014 data
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-43

And here is the data on police and in-custody deaths
The Counted: people killed by police in the United States – interactive | US news | The Guardian
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The twice as likely claim is unadulterated bs.




Police shoot more white folks in sheer numbers than they do blacks. If all things were equal, that is what should be expected.

If broken down by racial proportions, the numbers then reflect that the Police kill disproportionately more blacks than whites.
But the problem with that stat is that not all members of a race interact with police on a criminal level, so the whole number of a race can not be used for comparative purposes.
The numbers need to be broken down further to only those who interact with them.
When that is done it becomes clear that whites are shot more times than blacks are.


Adjusted to take into account the racial breakdown of the U.S. population, he said black men are 3.5 times more likely to be killed by police than white men. But also adjusted to take into account the racial breakdown in violent crime, the data actually show that police are less likely to kill black suspects than white ones.

“If one adjusts for the racial disparity in the homicide rate or the rate at which police are feloniously killed, whites are actually more likely to be killed by police than blacks,” said Mr. Moskos, a former Baltimore cop and author of the book “Cop in the Hood.”

“Adjusted for the homicide rate, whites are 1.7 times more likely than blacks die at the hands of police,” he said. “Adjusted for the racial disparity at which police are feloniously killed, whites are 1.3 times more likely than blacks to die at the hands of police.”

Police kill more whites than blacks, but minority deaths generate more outrage
Analysis contradicts widespread views about racial targets​



Then it can be shown that Police actually avoid shooting blacks.

The real racial bias: Cops more willing to shoot whites than blacks, research finds

It’s widely assumed that white police officers are more likely to shoot black suspects as a result of racial bias, but recent research suggests the opposite is true.​

The real racial bias: Cops more willing to shoot whites than blacks, research finds



Whether officers, veterans or civilians, the subjects consistently hesitated longer before firing at black suspects and were much more likely to mistakenly shoot an unarmed white suspect, the researchers found. And when they failed to fire at an armed suspect — a potentially fatal mistake — the suspect was about five times more likely to be black than white. The study’s 36 police officers were the lone exception in failing to fire: The suspect’s race wasn’t a factor in their decision not to shoot. “The findings were very unexpected given the previous experimental research,” said Lois James, an assistant professor who conducted the research.

Are Police Bigoted?
Race and Police Shootings: Are Blacks Targeted More?​
 
RetiredUSN said:
You go after a cop with intent to hurt him/her...................they have ever right to blow your **** away. The USSC says so.

Cops are not required to be punching bags or targets. They do a damn good job of not killing people, even while being justified if they had.

People like you see a few bad incidents and pizz all over yourselves, and then play the righteous game.
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Government force against the People is limited. So no, they don't have the right to just "blow you away". There are situations where deadly force is a reasonable response, but we are in this current situation because there is an established history of some of that deadly force being unnecessary. Too many unarmed people, or suspects that have already been tackled and controlled being shot. Too many instances that could have been resolved more peacefully had the police not escalated the situation.

The overall distrust of the police by the people is not caused by the people. This is caused by systematic abuse that is either covered up or otherwise unpunished.

Thus we need to reevaluate how government agents interact with the people, reexamine the tools they have and find a way that can protect both government agent and citizen.

This isn't the wild west, police can't just shoot people because they are scared.
 
Fishking said:
Sure, but that's not how it's framed. It's framed as "cuz racism" or "this is only a black problem".
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It doesn't matter how it's framed. There are people, almost always on the right, who won't hear any suggestion that police aren't perfect.
 
Ikari said:
I think the bigger problem is the near 1200 deaths at the hands of the police and the sometimes very questionable use of deadly force.
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Yep. It isn't like if they killed all races proportionately all would be hunky-dory.
 
Caine said:
I am personally tired of hearing that black people are "twice as likely" to be killed by police than others. So lets talk figures. I'll use 2015 data for this. In 2015, 1146 people were killed by police or in police custody. 306 of them were black, and 581 were white, the rest were of other races, but nobody seems to care about those other races in this discussion. Now, while people correctly state that blacks make up a much smaller part of the population than whites, what should be focused on is that blacks make up a higher part of the criminal element. FBI crime statistics show that of violent crime, blacks committed 37.7% of it. Yet blacks comprised of only 26.7% of those killed by police or in police custody. So... where is the problem?

As 2015 FBI data isn't available just yet, Im using 2014 data
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-43

And here is the data on police and in-custody deaths
The Counted: people killed by police in the United States – interactive | US news | The Guardian
Click to expand...

The problem are the 1.146 dead by police intervention. This does not mean that most are probably justified. But that is a really remarkable number and should be focused on as a symptom we need to understand.
 
Ikari said:
Police seem to think so.
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Police are trained a use of force continuum, which is not an escalating scale as some seem to think. They meet force with force. Do they sometimes **** up? Yes, and those who **** up should and usually are held accountable, even if it is not in the manner that you believe is necessary.

If they are met with force, they will use force as well in accordance with their department's use of force continuum, with the ultimate goal that they will win, as criminal have no "right" to get away with it because they can fight the police.
 
Ikari said:
Government force against the People is limited. So no, they don't have the right to just "blow you away". There are situations where deadly force is a reasonable response, but we are in this current situation because there is an established history of some of that deadly force being unnecessary. Too many unarmed people, or suspects that have already been tackled and controlled being shot. Too many instances that could have been resolved more peacefully had the police not escalated the situation.

The overall distrust of the police by the people is not caused by the people. This is caused by systematic abuse that is either covered up or otherwise unpunished.

Thus we need to reevaluate how government agents interact with the people, reexamine the tools they have and find a way that can protect both government agent and citizen.

This isn't the wild west, police can't just shoot people because they are scared.
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You are right... its not caused by the people.

Its caused by the actions of the criminal element, the responses of the police officers, and the spin on the situation created by the media, and those "tweeters" out there who other people seem to "follow" to help them form their opinions.

And when it comes to incidents where black people are involved, then it is also spun by the Race Grievance Industry (R.G.I.).
 
rocket88 said:
It doesn't matter how it's framed. There are people, almost always on the right, who won't hear any suggestion that police aren't perfect.
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I do believe that I have stated that the police aren't perfect in some way shape or form right here in this thread.

I'll admit when a police action is excessive, but I won't do it by watching an after the fact video and listening to one person's take on the situation.

Because lets face it..... "Black Lies Matter" when it comes to these situations as we have been witness to over and over and over again. The Race Grievance Industry has taught many people how to be professional victims of police, as well as be brainwashed by their "group think". Anyone who doesn't follow that think, even if they are black themselves, are either a Racist (if you are white) or a "Coon" (if you are black). I just saw that **** today on a local facebook group where a black man posted some very compelling statistics about how this isn't a black person problem, and was called a coon for it.

Which black lies do you ask?

"Hands up don't shoot."
Nearly the R.G.I. put out to do with Trayvon Martin
Nearly anything the R.G.I. spouted off about the Freddie Gray case.
 
joG said:
The problem are the 1.146 dead by police intervention. This does not mean that most are probably justified. But that is a really remarkable number and should be focused on as a symptom we need to understand.
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Oh, certainly, we should let criminals be criminals right?

How is that working out for Baltimore?
 
Caine said:
Police are trained a use of force continuum, which is not an escalating scale as some seem to think. They meet force with force. Do they sometimes **** up? Yes, and those who **** up should and usually are held accountable, even if it is not in the manner that you believe is necessary.

If they are met with force, they will use force as well in accordance with their department's use of force continuum, with the ultimate goal that they will win, as criminal have no "right" to get away with it because they can fight the police.
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If there were actual review and police misconduct was seriously routed out and punished, we wouldn't be where we are right now.
 
Ikari said:
If there were actual review and police misconduct was seriously routed out and punished, we wouldn't be where we are right now.
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Yes, we would........ Unless you have some sort of Minority Report twins in the basement who are able to tell us every future action of someone whether it be malicious or a bad last minute decision.
 
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