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Hawaii Moves to Strip "Rapists" Parental Rights

calamity said:
They won't be convicted of crimes. They will just not be allowed to pester the mother and influence the child. Good law.
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A good law, which could deny parental rights for false claims of rape?


calamity said:
Why? I can sue someone to high heaven and win on a lot less than "Clear and Convincing" evidence. All I need do to ruin someone's life completely is present enough to have the "preponderance of the evidence" on my side.

It's a civil matter. Mom who claims she was raped says, "Get raping scumbag out of my life." Civil matter.
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Two wrongs don't make a right.
 
roughdraft274 said:
"clear and convincing" evidence is not the same as "claiming". That's a very large distinction. Seriously. I'm worried about the law also, but that doesn't mean you get to lie about it.
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It is easier to swallow when you think of it as a civil matter, with civil court's burden of proof requirement.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
A good law, which could deny parental rights for false claims of rape?
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False or simply could not get a conviction? You're assuming it's a false accusation shows prejudice, IMO.




Two wrongs don't make a right.
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It's not a wrong. It's civil court. You need to brush up on your law and learn the difference between taking away someone's freedom versus just taking their property.
 
calamity said:
False or simply could not get a conviction? You're assuming it's a false accusation shows prejudice, IMO.
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My assumption is that, if you aren't convicted of wrong doing, you shouldn't lose rights.

calamity said:
It's not a wrong. It's civil court. You need to brush up on your law and learn the difference between taking away someone's freedom versus just taking their property.
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It absolutely is, if one person loses their parental rights, when they did not commit a rape.
 
Gaius46 said:
Want to get a temporary restraining order to keep the guy away - clear and convincing is fine. But for a permanent step? No.
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Responding to your edit.

If "clear and convincing" is enough for a TPO, I'm even more worried.
I've seen those issued for basically nothing more than hear say.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
My assumption is that, if you aren't convicted of wrong doing, you shouldn't lose rights.
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Well, if you don't rape, you have nothing to worry about.



It absolutely is, if one person loses their parental rights, when they did not commit a rape.
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It's very hard to prove rape. Very hard. Good law.
 
calamity said:
Well, if you don;t rape, you have nothing to worry about.
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Or, if you don't get accused of rape and don't happen to fall into a particular set of circumstances where someone may think you did, but you didn't.
That's a load of crap.

calamity said:
It's very hard to prove rape. Very hard. Good law.
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Just because something is hard to prove, doesn't make punishing for possibly doing something good.
 
joG said:
Unconvicted rape suspects?

What happens with the kids?
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Mom gets sole custody, alleged rapist is barred from visitation and other influences. Good law.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Or, if you don't get accused of rape and don't happen to fall into a particular set of circumstances where someone may think you did, but you didn't.
That's a load of crap.
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They still have to show clear and convincing evidence of rape. It's a far cry from just a simple accusation.



Just because something is hard to prove, doesn't make punishing for possibly doing something good.
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It's not punishment. It's simply a court order to stay away. Why would a guy care anyway?
 
calamity said:
They still have to show clear and convincing evidence of rape. It's a far cry from just a simple accusation.
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Which is just a mottled version of, "in my opinion."
I'm not convinced something like this wouldn't be weaponized.

calamity said:
It's not punishment. It's simply a court order to stay away. Why would a guy care anyway?
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You know, because you may be an actual decent human being, caught in a set of circumstances, where you look possibly guilty but actually aren't and you want to love your kid.
 
calamity said:
Mom gets sole custody, alleged rapist is barred from visitation and other influences. Good law.
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But what happens, if the mother loves the suspected rapist?
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Which is just a mottled version of, "in my opinion."
I'm not convinced something like this wouldn't be weaponized.
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I'm sure part of "clear and convincing" is not crying rape 9 months after conception. So, weaponized maybe...but, it would have to be quick and she would have to present some evidence that the sex was not consensual.



You know, because you may be an actual decent human being, caught in a set of circumstances, where you look possibly guilty but actually aren't and you want to love your kid.
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I don't know. If the person some guy impregnates suddenly cries rape, and she can show a reasonable amount of evidence to that effect---I'd be quite OK with that guy being barred from the scene.
 
calamity said:
I'm sure part of "clear and convincing" is not crying rape 9 months after conception. So, weaponized maybe...but, it would have to be quick and she would have to present some evidence that the sex was not consensual.
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If there is enough evidence to show rape, then they should be convicted of rape.
By the same standard, if there is not evidence of rape, then someone should not be convicted or suffer consequences for lack of evidence.


calamity said:
I don't know. If the person some guy impregnates suddenly cries rape, and she can show a reasonable amount of evidence to that effect---I'd be quite OK with that guy being barred from the scene.
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Why are you ok for lowering the bar for criminality in this instance?
What this basically does is say, you've been cleared of rape, but you raped.

It's illogical justice and can often be used as a form of weaponized justice.
A sort of double jeopardy.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
If there is enough evidence to show rape, then they should be convicted of rape.
By the same standard, if there is not evidence of rape, then someone should not be convicted or suffer consequences for lack of evidence.
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Again. You are confusing criminal court with probate or civil court.

Here's the list of reasons you can loses parental rights. Just add convincing evidence of rape to it.

http://family.findlaw.com/parental-...-grounds-for-terminating-parental-rights.html



Why are you ok for lowering the bar for criminality in this instance?
What this basically does is say, you've been cleared of rape, but you raped.

It's illogical justice and can often be used as a form of weaponized justice.
A sort of double jeopardy.
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I understand civil law. I guess. While yo do not.
 
calamity said:
It is easier to swallow when you think of it as a civil matter, with civil court's burden of proof requirement.
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The stakes aren't as high in civil matters. Peoples rights are not irrevocably taken away from them in civil court.
 
Gaius46 said:
The stakes aren't as high in civil matters. Peoples rights are not irrevocably taken away from them in civil court.
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No, just all their property and perhaps even a lifetime of indebtedness.
 
calamity said:
Again. You are confusing criminal court with probate or civil court.

Here's the list of reasons you can loses parental rights. Just add convincing evidence of rape to it.

Checklist: Grounds for Terminating Parental Rights - FindLaw
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Which usually come with criminal charges and convictions.
Not, found not guilty, so we "convict" you through lesser means.

calamity said:
I understand civil law. I guess. While yo do not.
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I think you're dancing around the fact that it's nothing more than an attempt to get around double jeopardy.
This is similar to the Title 9 campus courts where people having consensual sex, can be considered rapists and thrown out of school.
 
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