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Democracy: Good, bad, or ugly?

Before I respond to some of the above, I'd like to be as clear as possible on a particular point, namely the geographic issue.

Laws are currently exerted on the behavior of individuals and organizations, and are enforced within specific geographic boundaries. I.e. if you are within the borders of Canada, then Canadian law applies. If you are in Kansas City, then the laws of Kansas City, the state of Kansas and the United States apply.

Are you recommending we replace that legal system, and the method of passing laws, with one that has contracts between individuals?

And to be clear, that would mean that you could have five people in a room, who have all signed different contracts, and are thus bound by five completely different sets of laws.

Similarly, a retailer who has 50 different vendors could be dealing with 5, 10, 20 or 50 different sets of contract-driven laws, as well as multiple currencies, multiple credit arrangements and multiple conflict resolution methods.

Is that what you're suggesting, or are you thinking about something different?
 
So, you still have yet to describe a real situation where a majority has oppressed a minority via democracy. The Nazis are out. What's next, South Africa? Forget it, it's just another example of minority rule over a majority of people.

Maybe there are some occasions where corrupt representative democracies have oppressed minorities, but there are way too many more examples where minorities have oppressed majorities. As always, there is no black and white to democracy, but really just a thousand shades of gray. But if you were to take the time to plot out all countries based on level of democracy against oppression of minority groups, I am absolutely sure you will find those countries that embrace democracy more will have less oppression. Start with North Korea and finish with Switzerland.

By all means, go on with your manifesto, but I don't think you will get much support for eliminating democracy in order to give more freedom to the people. People know too many examples of undemocratic countries which have really awful human rights violations. Cambodia seems to be pretty undemocratic, how are they doing with human rights? Switzerland, which embraces direct democracy, probably is the role model for the rest of the world.
 
Before I respond to some of the above, I'd like to be as clear as possible on a particular point, namely the geographic issue.

Laws are currently exerted on the behavior of individuals and organizations, and are enforced within specific geographic boundaries. I.e. if you are within the borders of Canada, then Canadian law applies. If you are in Kansas City, then the laws of Kansas City, the state of Kansas and the United States apply.

Are you recommending we replace that legal system, and the method of passing laws, with one that has contracts between individuals?

And to be clear, that would mean that you could have five people in a room, who have all signed different contracts, and are thus bound by five completely different sets of laws.

Similarly, a retailer who has 50 different vendors could be dealing with 5, 10, 20 or 50 different sets of contract-driven laws, as well as multiple currencies, multiple credit arrangements and multiple conflict resolution methods.

Is that what you're suggesting, or are you thinking about something different?

In theory you've pretty much got the hang of it. In practice these things (specifically vendors dealing with multiple sets of contract driven laws) simply couldn't happen, and we both know it.

One important thing you didn't specifically note, though I assume you have already understood: The five people in the room may have signed different social contracts, but none have the right to violate the three basic universal natural "laws/rights" which still haven't been challenged on an ethical basis by anyone in this thread so far (unlike representative democracy which has been criticized by pretty much everyone, even if inadvertently).

This means if one of them signed a contract saying that having marijuana in your blood stream is illegal, and another has signed a contract agreeing to smoke constantly, these two people will need to have a conversation and come to some kind of understanding (such as the smoker sits by the window) in order to be able to stay together. In reality it is far more likely that they would simply choose to be in separate rooms. After all, they voluntarily chose to be in the societies that either prohibited or encouraged use of marijuana. If they both want to be there but can't come to an agreement about how to do it without violating their own chosen set of rules, the owner of the room will simply have to choose who stays and who goes.

It's like if I had a shop that sold pork and a Muslim applied for a job. I'd give him the job, but if he has his own reasons for not being able to do it, that's up to him. I'm not just going to change my entire business to selling halal stuff for his sake, but I'm also not going to vote for laws that say he has to handle pork. I don't mind what his beliefs are, and I don't expect him to mind about mine. All that matters is that we don't claim to have the authority to dictate and enforce our beliefs upon each other, even if a narrow voting majority says that one of us can. And of course, we all know that the chances of a Muslim applying for a job in a pork shop are about the same as a communist applying to work for Donald Trump. It's an interesting hypothetical scenario, but if it's the biggest of the problems that you have with my proposal, then I'd say I'm doing pretty well :D

In the case of currencies, you seem to be assuming that people would just start making currencies out of thin air and expecting them to have value. No one is dumb enough to think that would or could happen. There would probably be a few currencies, with various (relatively stable) exchange rates between them. Logically, there are a few forms of currency that would likely be dominant:

- Precious metals, due to their finite nature and potential practical value (though technology could conceivably make certain metals less valuable or even obsolete, as has already happened to a certain extent).
- Labor notes, which I consider to be the purest and least corruptible form of currency, though I accept that they are only useful in certain situations. They would be more useful if mini societies issued labor notes that could be redeemed through multiple people within their society. For example a blacksmith from the communists may have given you an hour of labor for a pizza, but you could redeem it for an hour of labor from a mechanic from the same group instead. There is nothing I love more than the idea of this type of payment, though I do realize it has practical limitations. Labor notes (currency) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
- Paper currencies backed by physical goods from reputable societies. Not necessarily precious metals, but all sorts of consumable items that vendors may be able to use or trade. If a certain society is known as being good at hunting and they give you a note for 1 deer, and they've paid up on the deer for others who have been paid in the same way, then you have every reason to trust them (more reason than to trust your government on fiat currency).
- There would probably be "banks", but not as we know them now. For a bank to be really useful in this society, you need to be able to deposit eight hours of communist labor and withdraw four hours of capitalist financial advice. Or deposit 10kg of trout and withdraw 5 loaves of bread. The challenges, risks, and potential losses and rewards of such a business boggle the mind, but I believe it is more than viable and that the potential for profit if it could serve a mass market would be big enough to encourage plenty of businesses to try it.

Where I live, there are two main accepted currencies in the big cities: Riel and USD. Shops, petrol stations, restaurants, banks, and anyone you can think of happily accepts payment in either currency, and can do conversions between the two almost instantly (took me a while, but then I realized they were just rounding it to 4000:1 and working it out like that). As a general rule, people pay in their own currency (Riel) unless the cost makes it impractical (like having to carry around a wheelbarrow full of local currency to do your shopping), then they use dollars. In provinces to the East and West, they also commonly accept Dong or Baht respectively. In the voluntary civilisation we are speaking of, I might use 10% silver coins from my reputable mini society (so you don't have to check every single coin) for small purchases, and eight hour labor notes for larger ones.

It is probable that the terms of payment would be dictated by the vendor rather than the customers for the sake of practicality, but it would also be in the interests of the vendor to accept whatever genuinely valuable currencies they were offered.

It also helps to isolate that tyrannical minority that kenc is so worried about. No one is going to feed their troops if they think the food will be used to steal the food making business. No one is going to give precious metals to a society that has a history of turning them into weapons and using them to break the natural rights of other societies. It wouldn't make any sense to do so, and there would be no need in a competitive free market environment. It would also make people less likely to trust any payment in future labor or potentially worthless metal coins if the society that provided them had attracted a bad reputation.

The entire thing encourages self ownership and individual responsibility, as well as freedom of choice.

So, you still have yet to describe a real situation where a majority has oppressed a minority via democracy. The Nazis are out. What's next, South Africa? Forget it, it's just another example of minority rule over a majority of people.
Wait, what? How are the Nazis out? They won twice as many votes as any other party, thereby having a majority over any other individual party. There was no choice but to put Hitler in a position to take over the country, and that was a result of democratic process.

Next, again, you seem to be completely ignoring the actual example I keep giving, which leads to all the other examples: Your elected representatives make decisions to curtail the freedoms of their own citizens in multiple ways. Whether it be the Patriot act for Americans, the British government hiring a US military company to process our entire nation's census information (even though that exposes it to...... the patriot act), or simple things like controlling what herbs you put in your bed time tea.

Anything they do that dictates the lives of others without ethical justification or consent IS tyranical by virtue of the fact that they dictated it. And anyone who voted for them is tyrannical for giving them that power in the first place. Do you really need me to create a list of victim less crimes, laws or actions that serve one group of people at the expense of another, or unethical decisions that have been made by governments that people voted for throughout modern history? I hardly know where to start, but I will give it a serious try if you insist.

Cambodia seems to be pretty undemocratic
It's as democratic as apple pie. They worked out the trick; the whole country is designed so that if you vote for anyone other than the guy in charge, it will all collapse. If the top man goes it will be all out war BUT you're free to vote for whoever you want. That makes it democratic, no? ;)
 
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"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill


I'm not usually one to quote Churchill, but he was spot on here.
 
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill


I'm not usually one to quote Churchill, but he was spot on here.

This is my point that it's one of the better forms of government the world has historically ever seen.

The United States is also not a pure democracy. It's a constitutional and representative democracy in which majority rule is tempered by minority rights protected by law. Originally the government derived its power from the people and was held accountable to them. Now it's somewhat out of control and institutionally corrupted with elitist monetary influence. This happens as a result of human nature and not a failed system, which there is no flawless one as long as we the people are not perfected. We do the best we can and self correct along the way.

When you realize we manage to house, feed, supply water - energy and employ hundreds of millions of people everyday it boggles the mind. Not including the global impact we have on billions. It's a stunning accolade of success that we can cooperate efficiently enough to increase the human population and it's comfort of living to the level we have.
 
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill
I'm not usually one to quote Churchill, but he was spot on here.

So lets try Voluntaryism. It hasn't been tried on a mass scale, and it has a more solid ethical basis than any of the others that have been tried, including democracy. Furthermore, it allows for democracies to exist within it for anyone who decides that that's what they prefer :D

While we're quoting Winston Churchill, let's not forget that he was also a raging bigot and very open about his propensity for violence and aggression, and lack of respect for democratic process:

"I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes." (Writing as president of the Air Council, 1919)

"I do not admit... that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia... by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race... has come in and taken its place." (that comment is even worse in modern context; Churchill to Palestine Royal Commission, 1937)

"The choice was clearly open: crush them with vain and unstinted force, or try to give them what they want. These were the only alternatives and most people were unprepared for either. Here indeed was the Irish spectre - horrid and inexorcisable." (Writing in The World Crisis and the Aftermath, 1923-31)

And my personal favorite (I'll put it in a proper quote thingy for dramatic effect):

Winston Churchill Addressing Stalin in Moscow said:
So far as Britain and Russia were concerned, how would it do for you to have 90% of Romania, for us to have 90% of the say in Greece, and go 50/50 about Yugoslavia?
You can practically feel the democratic intent just flowing through his words, can't you?

The United States is also not a pure democracy. It's a constitutional and representative democracy in which majority rule is tempered by minority rights protected by law.
Again, this simply means that just like kenc, you simply dislike democracy but are having trouble accepting it. It's ok bro, it took me a while too. Representative democracy IS democracy in terms of governance. Direct democracy is about as practical as pure anarchism, though arguably less ethical. If you don't like representative democracy, then you don't like western style democratic governance, plain and simple.
 
I know what you're thinking "but but Human Being, you're so stupid! The judge and private companies would collude to pervert justice!" Well, consider the fact that under your system, the prosecutor and the judge are both employed by the same organisation, and if you have a dispute with either of them, it get investigated by their organisation as well. There is no possibility of a neutral third party, unlike in a free market.
Let's separate criminal and civil cases.

In a criminal proceeding, in many nations the ones making the decision are a jury of your peers. That's about as neutral a group as you're going to get. In addition, you can hire your own defense.

In a civil proceeding, unless you are suing the government, you have two civilian parties with two civilian attorneys. Sometimes it's a jury, sometimes it's a judge. Again, not perfect but as neutral as can be devised.

If you're paying a police force to intervene on your behalf, you could hire them to harass a rival constantly, and vice versa -- with little means to stop the interference.


Also consider the fact that all these people are working for companies that still want to be able to get work in future. If the judge is seen to be unfair, other people will not accept his services or agree to be subjected to his decisions in future.
That's no less a deterrent against abuse today as it would be in Contractopolis.


Again, to argue against this principle is to argue that artificial monopolies are more ethically accountable than competing free market businesses. It simply defies all logic and reason.
No, it doesn't. Because law enforcement and legal proceedings are not a market.

A civil courtroom is not a neutral ground where equal parties trade to their mutual advantage. It's an adversarial zone where two parties, who cannot resolve their conflict by themselves, are forced to accept a judgment.

A criminal courtroom is also not a location for trade. It's where the force of law is brought to bear to punish violations of specific rules.


Try living in a country where the government gives out telecoms licences to pretty much anyone who asks. In Cambodia the entire national population is less than half the population of California, and we have eight telco operators in the country....
The US isn't really much different. There are multiple bands of spectrum in the US, and a winning bidder can use that spectrum however they want. Cambodia's spectrum got overcrowded, which resulted in a need for regulation. Which is why the TRC was formed, and officially launched in September 2012.

Consolidation in the US isn't because of government policy -- it's because of market pressures. In fact, anti-trust actions prevented AT&T from buying T-Mobile.


I can call from Cambodia to the UK for 3 cents per minute. That is purely the result of competition.
And a lower cost of living.


Wait, let me get this straight: When you have a defense agency that is answerable only to itself and has a complete geographical monopoly on enforcement of justice you call it "Police", but when I have a defense agency that is subject to free market competition and consumer choice, all of a sudden they are "mercenaries" and "armed thugs"?
Yes.

The police are not "answerable only to itself." In addition to internal controls, they are held accountable to elected officials and the courts. Which is why, for example, the NYPD is currently in court over its "stop and frisk" policies.

"Free markets" will not restrain police -- why would it? All they have to do is land a few big clients, and keep those clients happy. Why would a police firm want to work in Newark or Camden or East St Louis, whose citizens are broke and violent? The criminals won't want police, will refuse to pay for them, and will target police who do show up.

The simple fact is that not every social connection between human beings is a market.

Free markets are efficient at some things -- namely, situations where you want trade between parties of equal standing. Public parks, health care, law enforcement, legislation, environment, border protection, military defense, allocation of shared resources, conflict resolution -- these are all things that are not markets. They are common goods.

And much in the same way that it is inefficient and counter-productive to handle a market situation by non-market principles, it is inefficient and counter-productive to handle common goods by market principles.
 
Sorry in advance if this is the wrong place for this thread, there seem to be a lot of sub forums and I wasn't quite sure which one this belongs in. I'm sure I'll find my way around eventually...

I'd like to present a small part of a manifesto that I'm working on. The following section of the document lays out why I think democracy is something to fear, which I've tentatively titled "A Critique of Democracy". Later parts of the manifesto (which I will happily post separately) deal with other solutions that I see as being more ethically justifiable, but the general gist is that people shouldn't have a right to micro manage each other's lives, even if they vote on it.



I would appreciate any feedback, thoughts, or criticisms. The reason I'm specifically asking for feedback about this is that while I was trying to do some research, I realized that there actually isn't that much discussion on the topic. People just seem to think that democracy is a good thing and that seems to be the end of it. Have I lost my mind, or are my concerns legitimate?

I think you bring up many good points, but I have the impression it's a bit of a strawman argument, as I don't know many people who support mere, unchecked democracy in the classic sense on national level. Most people hear "democracy" and think of "representative democracy", which is the exact same thing as "republicanism" by the classic definition. And while it certainly can't be bad to encourage more precision when it comes to these terms, it's not that all the people who say they like "democracy" want to actually scrap the Constitution, as far as I can see.

As I learnt back in high school, even Aristotle, who distinguished between three types of government (rule by one, by some and by all, aka monarchy, oligarchy and democracy), already stated that the best and most stable form of government is a mix of all these three types, checking each other. Modern republics do that: We have the aspect of "rule of one" (the President/head of executive), "rule of some" (rule of some selected representatives, in parliaments and committees) and "rule of all" (in public elections determining the President and representatives). And we have constitutions determining basic civil rights (for the smallest minority that exists: The individual) that cannot be trumped by majority vote.

I agree that pure democracy basically is "dictatorship of the majority over the minority". Skipping the constitutions and their guarantee for civil rights is a bad idea.

But whenever you unite as a collective, and that's what we do when we form national states, you have to find a way to collectively make decisions (on matters that do not not violate civil rights). I think democracy is the best possible modus for fair collective decision making when it comes to such kinds of decisions, much better than letting one or few decide.
 
So lets try Voluntaryism. It hasn't been tried on a mass scale, and it has a more solid ethical basis than any of the others that have been tried, including democracy. Furthermore, it allows for democracies to exist within it for anyone who decides that that's what they prefer :D

While we're quoting Winston Churchill, let's not forget that he was also a raging bigot and very open about his propensity for violence and aggression, and lack of respect for democratic process:

"I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes." (Writing as president of the Air Council, 1919)

"I do not admit... that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia... by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race... has come in and taken its place." (that comment is even worse in modern context; Churchill to Palestine Royal Commission, 1937)

"The choice was clearly open: crush them with vain and unstinted force, or try to give them what they want. These were the only alternatives and most people were unprepared for either. Here indeed was the Irish spectre - horrid and inexorcisable." (Writing in The World Crisis and the Aftermath, 1923-31)

As I said, I'm not usually one to quote Churchill, but I think he's right about Democracy.

And my personal favorite (I'll put it in a proper quote thingy for dramatic effect):

Look at the date (1944) and consider the geopolitical milieu....Britain was allied with the USSR against the Nazis (as was the US). Churchill was not about to go pissing off Stalin before the war was over. Even after the war, he wasn't about to.
 
Look at the date (1944) and consider the geopolitical milieu....Britain was allied with the USSR against the Nazis (as was the US). Churchill was not about to go pissing off Stalin before the war was over. Even after the war, he wasn't about to.

So the date and context makes it OK to talk about dividing up ownership of sovereign nations as if they were slices of a double crust pizza? With a notorious fascist?

Valid points from Visbek and German Guy, I'll address them tomorrow as I'm a bit worn out. :D
 
So the date and context makes it OK to talk about dividing up ownership of sovereign nations as if they were slices of a double crust pizza?

Pretty much, yeah. It's called dipolomacy, you don't go to your ally's capital and rip them a new one. Especially when they're busy bogging down the enemy so that they can't invade you.
 
Pretty much, yeah. It's called dipolomacy, you don't go to your ally's capital and rip them a new one. Especially when they're busy bogging down the enemy so that they can't invade you.
So shining examples of democracy survive by agreeing to divide up sovereign nations with fascist leaders. And you guys are saying democracy is the best option we have. Sad, sad stuff. I'm glad I think you're wrong.
 
So shining examples of democracy survive by agreeing to divide up sovereign nations with fascist leaders. And you guys are saying democracy is the best option we have. Sad, sad stuff. I'm glad I think you're wrong.

They do indeed survive by learning to live in the world they live in. I don't necessarily agree with Churchill and Roosevelt doing what they did, but I understand why they did it.
 
Wait, what? How are the Nazis out? They won twice as many votes as any other party, thereby having a majority over any other individual party. There was no choice but to put Hitler in a position to take over the country, and that was a result of democratic process.

The Nazis rise to power was formally legal (via President Hindenburg abusing a loophole in the constitution), but it was *not* democratic. For a government to be democratically elected, it would have needed a majority of seats in the parliament. The Nazi Party was far from that. They never made more than 34% in free elections. That made them the strongest party, true, but the German system did not suppose rule of a plurality. So the Nazis would have had to find large enough coalition partners to surpass 50% of the seats, which they did not.

On top of that, they were an anti-constitutional and anti-democratic party. Citing the declared enemies of democracy as example for democracy brutalizing the people doesn't really make sense. In (West-)Germany post-1949, anti-constitutional parties can be and are banned. That's because democracy has to defend itself against its enemies.
 
Again, why are they legitimate police when you hire them, but armed thugs when I hire them? Mine have a greater inherent interest in providing justice....
They don't have an inherent interest in "providing justice." They have a commercial interest in pleasing the person/organization who is paying them.

And I'm not a government. So I'm not "hiring them." Police work for the public and the government.


I'm proposing a world where laws are based on logic and reason, and the best interests of everyone. You are proposing a world where laws are based on threat of violence and imprisonment, and the best interests of a narrow voting majority.
You're someone who mistakenly believes that the entire world is a market, and who uses the language of contracts to hide or ignore its coercive mechanisms.

By the way, what happens if someone flatly rejects all political contracts on offer? You cannot coerce them to sign on the dotted line, which means you cannot force them to be bound by laws. If you want to prevent them from harming others, you'll still need to rely on force, coercion and a lack of their consent to keep yourself safe.

Or: You will need a set of "meta-laws" that apply regardless of any contracts. (Obviously you'll need one unified set of statutes governing contracts.) For example, we'll want a universal law against murder or slavery, regardless of which political contracts the citizen has signed. (Or do you believe that I can, in fact, sign a contract which allows a private citizen to murder or enslave me?)

The problem being, of course, that you are right back to using force and coercion to proscribe and curtail human behavior. You also have to have a mechanism by which it is determined which laws are the universal laws. Who gets to decide that? Is it decided by *cough* majority vote? Elected representatives? A dictator? If the society as a whole changes its mind about what qualifies as a universal law, what process is used to make that change?

Is the freedom of speech a universal right, that deserves an elevated or universal protection? The right to bear arms? The right to refuse to house a soldier? Many people would say "yes," although obviously these things falls outside the purview of your "3 Rules."


You keep referring to "contractopolis", but you fail to understand that your own society relies on the same principle, it calls it a "social contract". The difference is that mine is an actual contract, whereas by definition yours isn't, it's just a unilateral declaration.
Actually, I prefer the idea of "consent of the governed," which is a more sophisticated version of a "social contract." The basic idea is that if the public do not give consent to the government in power, they have the right to replace that government.

Obviously, some people will not consent. Those people have the right to advocate for change -- or leave.

And yes, sometimes force will be required to keep people in check. Ultimately, no written contract is going to stop someone from engaging in criminal behavior, or settle a dispute, or convince a married couple to love and honor one another.


If the police violate your rights, who do you complain to?
• Internal Affairs
• My lawyer
• The ACLU
• My elected officials
• The press


In a free market economy, if one group of police go renegade, you still have plenty of other groups to choose from.
And how does that stop the "renegade police" from harassing citizens at the request of their clients? Will the officers from Steve's Security have the legal right to arrest officers from Carl's Cops?

And what happens in the regions where citizens don't want police at all? Do we really want pockets of total lawlessness?

How do you avoid police corruption? As it stands, that's already a problem -- but at least it's illegal for me to hand a police officer $10,000 and tell the officer to arrest a specific person. What will happen when it is not only legal, but routine?

For example: Let's say I run a shop, and Joe plans to open a competing store down the street. So, I pay Steve's Security $10,000 to arrest Joe on a flimsy excuse. Joe retaliates by hiring Carl's Cops to nail me. I don't think Steve roughed you up enough, so I hire the Pinkertons to bust Steve, re-arrest Joe and beat the crap out of him in the process.

Who's going to punish me, Steve, Carl, Joe and the Pinkertons for abusing the law? What if no one in the community feels like paying yet another police force to come in and knock some heads? What if no other police force wants the job of straightening out Steve and Carl? Or can't take on the Pinkertons?

(That last name choice is deliberate. Read up on the Pinkertons and the labor movement, and you'll see some of the real-world problems of a private security force.)


You also presumably have a standing militia just like in the US, for if a bunch of defense agencies all club together to form a monopoly (which it sounds like you'd prefer anyway).
Meaning what, we'd have to get the military involved to police the private police? How is that supposed to work?
 
Unfortunately you are way off base when you think I don't like democracy. I don't like what people consider to be democracy today. Just because North Korea calls itself the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea does not make it a democracy. Representative Democracy is also a form of democracy, but it is a limited and indirect democracy. Moreover, one has to answer the question are the representatives really representing the people in the vast majority of governments today? Maybe some, sometimes, but I think the majority of people are getting a raw deal today with their representatives catering to other interests before the interests of the people. So, that isn't democracy. Democracy in its simplest form means that people have a say in the matters that directly affect their lives. Anything else is a master and servant relationship.

That being said, I live in the real world. I don't think Direct Democracy is the best way for government and actually favor a mixed democracy. So, let's have a look at a real example, my favorite, the Patriot Act. We vote for our representatives who then make laws for us via a democratic vote in congress. They vote on the Patriot Act and it garners more than 51% of the vote. Instead of it enacting it there, let's put it to the test of the people. So, before it can be enforced, they then have to "sell it" to the people who will be affected by it, in this case every citizen. Remember, it is unlikely that 100% voted for it, so it's also a chance for the minority to speak up and describe why they were against it. Then have a nationwide vote to determine what the people, who are directly affected by the Act, really think. If they say no, then obviously the people weren't represented and they have to go back and rethink their Act. If they say yes, then all is fine. Now, not every law has to be put to a national vote, only those that are really important enough to get right. Only this way the people can be sure the representatives are really doing what is in the best interest of the people, and not the moneyed interests that are so influential in DC. All I am doing is introducing one last check and balance to make absolutely sure. Something as important as the Patriot Act should be gotten right and made perfectly legitimate by the people that are affected by the Act.
 
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Sorry for absurdly long post, seems there is a lot to respond to (actually, I just tried to post and it said it was too long for a single post, so I'll split it into two posts):


I'm finding the same thing :D I guess the truth hurts, especially when you realize that the truth is you participate in a system that is built on violence and imprisonment.


Exactly. It's all about building a system based on non aggression, where your personal freedom is limited only by the effects you have on others around you, and where violence is only used as a response to aggression, not to instigate it. NAP is ethical, it makes good logical sense. Claiming juristiction over people simply through threat and use of violence doesn't.


Wrong way around bro :D If men were angels, we could elect them to have full judicial control over entire geographical areas, and we wouldn't have to worry about them over reaching into our day to day lives and matters that have nothing to do with them, under threat of violence and imprisonment. As it is, men aren't angels, and giving them that much power and control over each other is a really bad idea, as is proven time and time again. Voting to give one group of men a complete monopoly on violence and imprisonment over other groups is just a terrible, terrible idea.


Hmmm. Good point. That's actually pretty hard to argue with. Experience tells me that the kind of people who seek power are very often those who are most likely to abuse it, and abuse real people with it, and that the accumulation of excessive power tends to corrupt good men (I am thinking, in particular, of a small-town mayor I knew rather well who became a Senator, and then was charged with numerous misconducts, ethical fiscal and personal... I'm sure he didn't start out that corrupt).


This is one reason I'd like to do away with the "career politician" and return to the concept of the "citizen legislator" who serves a term or two and goes HOME, and returns to private life as a mere private citizen... today, we have too many "Senators for life" who continue in politics (as de-facto lobbyists, power-brokers) after leaving office...





If we were, I wouldn't have such a problem with it. Sadly we aren't reluctant, not in the slightest.

Yes, that is so. I am just not entirely convinced that it means we throw the whole concept out the window...baby with the bathwater, etc.


Where we differ is our belief in free market vs monopoly. You think that oppression is limited by giving a monopoly on law enforcement and creation to one group of people, whereas I think competing groups provide a better outcome. When it comes to the efficiency of free markets vs artificial monopolies, I'm afraid you simply can't win, it's not even an argument worth having (though evidently, we're going to have it anyway as Visbek brought it up :D).


No, not exactly correct. I tend to support Federalism and States' Rights... breaking the monopoly into 50 sovereign states with near-autonomy internally, where the average citizen is not impacted in his personal life by the Fedgov to any signficant degree, but only by his local State and County/City gov't.... on the theory that the smaller governmental entities are more controllable by the People, and that it makes it easier to "vote with your feet" if your home State starts acting like a jackass...much easier than having to move halfway across the world, learn a new language and change your citizenship, yes?

But most of all I support LIMITED government... gov't that has few and limited powers, strictly fenced in and monitored. Granted, we don't really have that so much even here in America, but we have the ideal at least, and most of us still honor the concept.

If I am understanding you correctly, you are not advocating "no government whatsoever".... but a very LIMITED form of government... where we differ is HOW limited. Your view is relatively extreme, mine a bit more moderate (though extreme to some! lol)



It certainly makes for an interesting discussion, at least.
 
...No, not exactly correct. I tend to support Federalism and States' Rights... breaking the monopoly into 50 sovereign states with near-autonomy internally, where the average citizen is not impacted in his personal life by the Fedgov to any signficant degree, but only by his local State and County/City gov't.... on the theory that the smaller governmental entities are more controllable by the People, and that it makes it easier to "vote with your feet" if your home State starts acting like a jackass...much easier than having to move halfway across the world, learn a new language and change your citizenship, yes?

But most of all I support LIMITED government... gov't that has few and limited powers, strictly fenced in and monitored. Granted, we don't really have that so much even here in America, but we have the ideal at least, and most of us still honor the concept....

You and I think alike. I think the problems governments of the 20th century, all of them, had was the continual concentration of power into centralized power centers. The problem is that even today we still seek to centralize power. Look at the EU. I think it's time we started realizing that this leads to all the problems we have with disconnected governments and start to explore the possibility of the opposite where power in decentralized sufficiently to give people more say in the things that directly affect their lives. As a polarizing example, would you rather have your community deciding on your local issues or GWB?

Relevant to the OP, when the community lives together or dies together, the best way to interact is through participatory democracy. I will also state that a universal bill of human rights is a prerequisite before participatory democracy can occur. What people don't realize before they immediately jump off and start screaming majority rule, is that the anonymity of participatory democracy allows all to have their say, but it also holds people more accountable to do the right thing. Why? Because you never know if you are the minority in any given situation. With a variety of issues you are bound to be part of the minority on some. This tends to hold people to be more fair and considerate of others, especially the minority. If a majority votes to gas all the Jews in the community, what's to stop the next vote to gas all Christians? This is the side of Majority Rule no one ever bothers to consider.
 
Democracy is the best system we got and i will defend this system until my dying breath.
With the term democracy i mean representative democracy and participatory democracy.
 
Democracy is the best system we got and i will defend this system until my dying breath.
With the term democracy i mean representative democracy and participatory democracy.



to put it into todays language, John Adams American founding father says representative democracy sucks.

and America was not created as a representative democracy, because it has a mixed constitution-- federalist 40, and divides power between the states and the people, giving both power.

America does not have a democratic form of government, but a republican form.
 
to put it into todays language, John Adams American founding father says representative democracy sucks.
Good for John Adams.


and America was not created as a representative democracy, because it has a mixed constitution-- federalist 40, and divides power between the states and the people, giving both power.

America does not have a democratic form of government, but a republican form.

Uhh you can be a representative democracy and be a republic. They are not mutually exclusive.
 
Good for John Adams.




Uhh you can be a representative democracy and be a republic. They are not mutually exclusive.

that is not the republic I speak of.

the u.s. is a republic of republics each with a republican form of government.

in democracy the people rule directly or by direct vote for ALL their representatives, and it is democratic form of government

in a republican form of government, the power in divided between the people and the states, both have power. representatives are elected directly and indirectly..................indirectly, meaning... the states

you will not find the words representative democracy in any constitution or the federalist papers, at all, they call America government............republican government.

Madison states in federalist 10 ...there is republican government, and there is democratic government...the founder chose republican......not democratic
 
Democracy is the best system we got and i will defend this system until my dying breath.
With the term democracy i mean representative democracy and participatory democracy.

What if people vote to end democracy?

Sorry for not replying to some of the longer posts, haven't had time to sit down and go through them properly yet, hopefully I can this evening though to be honest I think we've all made our opinions pretty well heard.

Still, I'd love an answer to that question. What happens if the voting majority vote to end democracy? My guess is you'd fall back on the good old undemocratic constitution which guarantees democracy whether the majority want it or not (which is uh, kind of contradictory, but whatever). That would make you a hypocrite, no?
 
that is not the republic I speak of.

the u.s. is a republic of republics each with a republican form of government.
Like i said earlier a democracy and a representative democracy are not mutually exclusive. Almost all modern republicans have some sort of democratic government in power.

in democracy the people rule directly or by direct vote for ALL their representatives, and it is democratic form of government
Thats in a pure democracy.


in a republican form of government, the power in divided between the people and the states,
Thats federalism not a republic.
A republic is simply a form of governmet in which the power is held by its citizens and or the elected representatives of that country.

both have power. representatives are elected directly and indirectly..................indirectly, meaning... the states
Uhhh the representatives in the states are still elected directly by the citizens of that state......


you will not find the words representative democracy in any constitution or the federalist papers, at all, they call America government............republican government.
17th amendment..
 
What if people vote to end democracy?
Well saying the federal government of the US does not accept referendums in federal form of democracy.... Not possible. And they clearly undermine representative form of democracy in which we uphold in this country.
 
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