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The real Che Guevara

Sandokan

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Can his reputation survive the publication of his own words?

In December 1953, he wrote to his aunt from San José, Costa Rica, “I have sworn before a picture of our old, much lamented comrade Stalin that I will not rest until I see these capitalist octopuses annihilated.” [1, p. 62]Another letter to the same aunt was signed with the words "Stalin II." [2, p. 167] More important was the fact that when Guevara visited the USSR in his capacity as one of the most important leaders of the victorious Cuban revolution in November of 1960, he insisted on depositing a floral tribute at Stalin's tomb[1, p. 181]. It is important to remember that this was more than four years after Khrushchev's revelations of Stalin's crimes.

This from Che Guevara's Guevara journal of his travels through Latin America: “I now feel my dilated nostrils, savoring the acrid odor of gunpowder and blood, of enemy death; I now tense my body, ready for the struggle, and I prepare my being as a sacred place so that in it resounds with new vibrations and new hopes the bestial howl of the triumphant proletariat.” The Motorcycle Diaries omitted this inconvenient portion of Che's diaries form the film.

A phrase in a letter to his wife on January 28, 1957, not long after disembarking in Cuba, which was published in her book Ernesto: A Memoir of Che Guevara in Sierra Maestra: “Here in the Cuban jungle, alive and bloodthirsty.” It is hardly a surprise that during the armed struggle against Batista, and then after the triumphant entry into Havana, Guevara murdered or oversaw the executions in summary trials of scores of people.

[1] Jorge Castañeda, Compañero: The Life and Death of Che Guevara (New York: Vintage, 1998).

[2] Jon Lee Anderson, Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life (New York: Grove Press, 1997.
 
anyone that doesn't realise he did lead bloody revolutions is a fool anyway, it doesn't make a difference.
 
The Word (Jesus) became flesh and made his dwelling among us

The real Che Guevara: . . . thank you for this information .. I hope to learn more about Che Guevara and his Communistic / Socialistic murderous agenda . . . God help our youth .. so many brainwashed by the leftwing-media and government schools . . . turning him into an icconic hero ( a symbol of revolution ) I'm sure it won't be long .. they'll be follwing in his footsteps
 
Re: The Word (Jesus) became flesh and made his dwelling among us

The real Che Guevara: . . . thank you for this information .. I hope to learn more about Che Guevara and his Communistic / Socialistic murderous agenda . . . God help our youth .. so many brainwashed by the leftwing-media and government schools . . . turning him into an icconic hero ( a symbol of revolution ) I'm sure it won't be long .. they'll be follwing in his footsteps

Your posts flow exactly like The Prof's except you use ellipses instead of random spacing.
 
so many brainwashed by the leftwing-media and government schools

Frankly, I don't see the problem. As far as I'm concerned, it's fewer sharks in the tank. Besides, we need uneducated manual laborers in this nation still.

If these pale-faced nerds want to violently masturbate to Che posters and Das Kapital instead of learning useful information, let them. My groceries aren't bagging themselves.
 
anyone that doesn't realise he did lead bloody revolutions is a fool anyway, it doesn't make a difference.

so did Jefferson and Washington.

and Edmund Burke, Thomas Paine, Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Voltaire

Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee....

lot of folks did.

geo
 
Are we talking about this guy:

tumblr_ktu631u6dl1qaozryo1_500.jpg
 
nope.... THiS fella
main_guevara.jpg


He led a rebellion against a vicious U.S. sponsored tyrant. It is the "U.S. sponsored" part that makes him so hated here. Had it been a Soviet sponsored tyrant, we would hang his pictures on the walls of our primary schools.

geo.
 
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i can dig that. many people find it simpler to see people of other races as lower on the taxonomic scale. Apes are probably the most common denigrating comparison. Lots of people like to represent our own president so. Once upon a time my own family would have been so represented.

shanty.jpg


not exactly original.

geo.
 
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nope.... THiS fella
main_guevara.jpg


He led a rebellion against a vicious U.S. sponsored tyrant. It is the "U.S. sponsored" part that makes him so hated here. Had it been a Soviet sponsored tyrant, we would hang his pictures on the walls of our primary schools.

geo.


I think the fact that it was a communist revolution he lead is the chief factor in why so many in the US despise Che Guevera.

And that he idolized Stalin, who authored the butchery of millions.
 
i can dig that. many people find it simpler to see people of other races as lower on the taxonomic scale. Apes are probably the most common denigrating comparison. Lots of people like to represent our own president so. Once upon a time my own family would have been so represented.

not exactly original.

geo.

I'm sure lots of people think Che Guevara actually looks like Cornelius from the Planet of the Apes (Cornelius was played by a white guy, BTW).


Plus, isn't it funny how racist people assume anyone from South America is "another race" but anyone who isn't ignorant actually knows that che was actually white. Part Irish in fact.

Just like the actor who played Cornelius.
 
i do not really believe that anyone is a 'different race' because race is myth. it has no standing aside from our wish to believe that people that do not look like we do must be fundamentally different. they are not.

yes, i know that Guevara had Irish heritage. So do I. So does the fella in the ugly caricature that i posted. che was argentinian, spanish and irish.

that was the point. white? depends on whom you ask. he did not look like an ape. and if it is your wish to NOT seem like a racist you would be well advised to abjure the tactics of racism.

geo.
 
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i do not really believe that anyone is a 'different race' because race is myth. it has no standing aside from our wish to believe that people that do not look like we do must be fundamentally different. they are not.


Then why did you claim that Guevara was another "race" when you said "many people find it simpler to see people of other races as lower on the taxonomic scale."

Clearly I couldn't have been doing this as I was well aware that Guevara and I are of the same race.

yes, i know that Guevara had Irish heritage. So do I. So does the fella in the picture that i posted.

So does the fella in the picture that I posted.

that was the point.

geo.

Pretty horrible way to make a point. Either you made an assumption about Guevara's race (which is white) or assumed that I was not also white.

Either way, the person who brought up race was you.
 
I think the fact that it was a communist revolution he lead is the chief factor in why so many in the US despise Che Guevera.

And that he idolized Stalin, who authored the butchery of millions.

he was one of Time magazines (you know Time, found by Henry Luce, that paragon of conservatism) as one its 100 most important people of the 2oth century.

Che was a physician who gave up his profession to fight tyranny. He allied with the soviet ideology because the soviets allied with HIM... the enemy of my enemy is my ally, as the saying goes. The U.S. was behind the overthrow of the democratically elected Arbenz in Guatemala in the interest of United Fruit who had substantial capital investments in Central America. If Guevara developed a loathing for capitalism, he had good cause.

He joined Castro only after the U.S. refused to assist Castro in putting in a legitimate government in Cuba. It was not in the U.S. interests to have a democratic government in Cuba... United Fruit was THERE too, of course. To say that he was brutal... all warriors are. Not all need be warriors though. it is the determination of what obliges war that qualifies the warrior:
Where a government has come into power through some form of popular vote, fraudulent or not, and maintains at least an appearance of constitutional legality, the guerrilla outbreak cannot be promoted, since the possibilities of peaceful struggle have not yet been exhausted.
Ernesto 'Che' Guevara

sounds right to me. Che eventually abandoned stalinist ideology for a more 'humanist' version of socialism. Not that it mattered. The CIA hired a traitor to the Cuban revolution to assassinate him.

and then things got all better! Cuba was free! free! free!

geo.
 
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white. they are white when we want to avoid charges of our casting them as beasts.

geo.
 
white. they are white when we want to avoid charges of our casting them as beasts.

geo.

What are you talking about? Who are "they"? Argentinians? You realize that 85% of Argentinian are white, right?

The vast majority of them

Under any conditions. Whether painted as beasts or heroes.

Guevara had no other racial heritage besides white. He was Basque (white), Spanish (white), and Irish (white).

What else could he have been besides white?
 
What are you talking about? Who are "they"? Argentinians? You realize that 85% of Argentinian are white, right?

we have gotten way the hell off topic, but what the hell... that's where a lot of the fun is.

what is white? you mean European? Spanish as opposed to indigeneous? or African? Most exicans are of European heritage... most people in both North and South America or of European heritage... most of them do not consider most of the rest to be white and for certain most HERE do not consider most THERE to be white. 100 years ago in THIS country I would not have been considered white, though I am so white that I have to avoid the sun.

you might want to look a bit farther into the matter. White is far more often a cultural construct than an anatomical one. For good reason. Race is myth.

In South America 'color' has more to do with socio-economic level than with skin color... Brazil has more than 130 different 'colors', though, of course, most folks are dark skinned.

according to a study by Zonalatina on this very same issue, the authors, after having identified the 'colors' in question, say the following:
As part of the interviewing process, the interviewer is required to classify the respondents into one (and only one) of seven racial categories. . . Of course, this is not an exact science since there is no way to train people to classify 'correctly' (whatever that means) . . .That is to say, we freely admit that the results that we will present in the following are 'junk' science.

so, how do we know what 'race' or 'color' a person is? simple. ask them. they will tell you. key to the above is the word 'interview". What color is your neighbor. you may have never seen her, but you can know... check the census. THAT is how the races here are qualified.

In much of So America, be prepared for a lil confusion as, again, 'color' is more an element of socio-economic status than, well, skin color. And it is subject to change. Pele, for instance used to be black but is white now. He 'became white' by getting rich and famous.

as for argentina, the perception that this south american nation is populated by Europeans is about as factual as that the U.S. is Anglo-Saxon:
One of the most dominant definitions of the country's identity is that the majority of Argentina's population is white with European ancestors. This image is promoted both by outside observers as well as by some local intellectuals.
Culture of Argentina - History and ethnic relations http://www.everyculture.com/A-Bo/Argentina.html#ixzz0nwnRVCPO

not good enough? well, lessee.... how CAN we answer this? How about a genetic analysis!?!?!

kewl!
The proportion of [Argentinian[ individuals . . . not considered Amerindian (Caucasian?) was 47%, . . . Amerindian . . . were 10% and the mestizo condition . . . accounted for 43%. As depicted in most Latin American countries, there is in Argentina, a clear asymmetry regarding Amerindian matrilineage mestizo (83.3%) when compared with Amerindian patrilineage (16.7%). A clear discrepancy arose in comparison with the physical anthropological position that claims a minimal aboriginal component in Argentina’s population. This contribution provides additional information that supports a more relevant Amerindian component in a country that claimed to be the most European one of the entire Latin America.
2010 Y-DNA Haplogroup A Tree - The Genetic Atlas

I elided most of the y-chromosome/mitochondia stuff as tedious. But, in Argentina as elsewhere, the population is a mixture of the people that were there before other people got there and the other people that got there... mestizo, in spanish.

even simpler... Che Guevara would be considered latino if he were to walk down the streets of L.A. today.

geo.
 
Re: The Word (Jesus) became flesh and made his dwelling among us

The real Che Guevara: . . . thank you for this information .. I hope to learn more about Che Guevara and his Communistic / Socialistic murderous agenda . . . God help our youth .. so many brainwashed by the leftwing-media and government schools . . . turning him into an icconic hero ( a symbol of revolution ) I'm sure it won't be long .. they'll be follwing in his footsteps

I will keep posting about Che in order than you and others learn the truth about this despicable character.

When a boy in Guevara’s forces stole some food, he ordered him shot. In January 1957, Guevara personally executed a peasant named Eutimio Guerra because he suspected him of passing on information and described the act in his diary:

“I ended the problem giving him a shot with a .32 pistol in the right side of the brain, with exit orifice in the right temporal. He gasped for a little while and was dead. Upon proceeding to remove his belongings I couldn’t get off the watch tied by a chain to his belt, and then he told me in a steady voice farther away than fear: “Yank it off, boy, what does it matter… I did so and his possessions were now mine.” [2, p. 237]

Later he shot Aristidio, a peasant who expressed the desire to leave whenever the rebels moved on. He ordered the death of Echevarría, a brother of one of his comrades, because of unspecified crimes: “He had to pay the price.” At other times he would simulate executions without carrying them out, as a method of psychological torture.

He wrote to a friend in December 1957, “Because of my ideological background, I belong to those who believe that the solution of the world’s problems lies behind the so-called iron curtain....” [3, p. 269]

“If in doubt, kill him” were Che's instructions. On the eve of victory, according to Costa, Che ordered the execution of a couple dozen people in Santa Clara, in central Cuba, where his column had gone as part of a final assault on the island. Some of them were shot in a hotel, as Marcelo Fernándes-Zayas, another former revolutionary who later became a journalist, has written--adding that among those executed, known as casquitos, were peasants who had joined the army simply to escape unemployment.

[2]Jon Lee Anderson, Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life (New York: Grove Press, 1997).

[3] Carlos Franqui, Diary of the Cuban Revolution (New York: Viking Press, 1980).
 
you might want to look a bit farther into the matter. White is far more often a cultural construct than an anatomical one. For good reason. Race is myth.

1. You might want to look a bit further into the matter... you were the first person to lay any claims about his race. Which only exposed your own ignorance.

2. It's totally asinine to say race is a myth and a cultural construct and then follow that with genetic evidence that Argentinians are mixed race.

I mean totally asinine. You can't even do it without actually contradicting yourself.

The only reason to try and do it is to claim that he isn't "white".

When you've already argued that it is nothing more than a cultural construct.

Which, of course, means he was white, since that was how his culture defined him.

Which, of course, means that you agree that I'm right that he's "white".


That was fun. Any more intelelctually dishonest positions you'd like for me to expose?


even simpler... Che Guevara would be considered latino if he were to walk down the streets of L.A. today.

Even simpler still: Latinos can be any race. Other people's ignorance makes little difference to the reality.
 
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and you think that myths have no real world effect?

i will forgo pointing to the most influential myth operating in the world as i do not wish to offend anyone unnecessarily.

race IS myth. there is no empirical basis for it. that does not in the least matter. we still qualify people according to that myth. 'race' is an 'operable myth".

the genetic information qualifies the people of Argentina as precisely what you would expect after some 500 years... if you gave it a little thought: mixed indigenous and invader heritage (or race).

as for the post that started all this brouhaha, you dislike Che. You are not alone in that. You do not like communists. You are not alone in that. If you caricatured a man of a different ethnic heritage (or race) because of his ethnic heritage (or race) you would not be alone in that and i would be perfectly justified in calling you on it.

on the other hand, if you caricatured him merely because you do not like his politics and/or his means of pursuing those political ends, you may not be alone in that but it would be the first time I have ever seen a man presented as an ape for reasons other than his ethnic heritage (or race). nonetheless, i would owe you an apology for suggesting that you had. If so, consider it as given.

i would advise, again, that if you wish to avoid being mistaken for a racist that you avoid the tactics of racists.

geo.
 
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