Guaido Seeks to Cooperate with US Forces In Order to Take Power

Crovax said:

The UN human rights commissioner said this about the election, "this does not in any way fulfill minimal conditions for free and credible elections"

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Do you think he regards Guaido's announcement that he is the president as more democratic ? :lamo

So you care what the UN thinks ? Okay , let's run with that for a moment

here's what the UN stated about the situation in Venezuela in a report by Alfred de Zayas

UNSRTV said:

A former United Nations rapporteur has criticised the US for engaging in “economic warfare” against Venezuela which he claimed was the real reason for the economic and humanitarian crisis facing the country.

Alfred de Zayas, who last year became the first UN rapporteur to visit Venezuela for 21 years, also suggested in his recently published UN report, that US sanctions on the country are illegal and could amount to “crimes against humanity” under international law.

Mr De Zayas, an American lawyer, writer, historian and former secretary of the UN Human Rights Council (HRC), presented his Venezuela report to the HRC in September

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Former UN rapporteur: US sanctions against Venezuela causing economic and humanitarian crisis

Roadvirus said:

Translation: State-run media.
Very reliable :roll:

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Your own media has been found to be peddling lies about events and the situation in Venezuela some of which have been outed here on this subforum but I don't see you haviing anything to say about its reliability :roll:

Recall your own media sold you the government line about WMDs in Iraq so you would go there and and destroy the place. Have you forgotten that already ? How they bombed out any and all that opposed the war like Phil Donahue , Jesse Ventura and others

They have also had balls to sell you a Russia stole your election conspiracy theory for the last 2 years ,duping half the country into believing that it was only a matter of time before Trump would be led out of the White House in chains :lamo Only to actually make him pretty much bullet proof

They're the people you deem to be reliable ? lol

There is another side to this story than the one we see in the MSM of our countries ( which are also biased ) and people like you just don't want to see it

Tigerace117 said:

Yes, the Venezuelan people want Maduro gone. Funny how you seem desperate to ignore that fact.

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Maybe because it's NOT a fact

Some of them do and some of them don't is the more accurate assessment but you don't care about accuracy, you just peddle whatever the US government line is regardless of the facts because you are compelled to for personal reasons

My view is and always has been that the Venezuelan people ALONE should be supported and assisted to sort their problems out between themselves , free from US ( or any other ) military threats or sanctions. The article shows that that is the view of most Venezuelans too which is something you have been careful to ignore :roll: in your now well known and constant resort to outright projection

justabubba said:

if that were actually true, then why did they only recently elect him with 2/3 of the votes rather than the other candidates

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The poster you are replying to cares nothing about the truth bubba but only promoting the US governments position

Tigerace117 said:

Funny how much of a mandate one can grant oneself when one has gangs of thugs willing to machine gun anyone who votes the "wrong" way.

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You have repeated this claim twice now without having the nuts to cite anything to support it.

You need to provide evidence that " gangs of thugs " were " willing to machine gun anyone who votes the "wrong" way "

Both Chavez and Maduro governments have failed to diversify the economy and made some poor decisions. There may be some on the take too. But to not factor in the US economic warfare against Venezuela as a big factor in the current situation there is just an exercise in self deception , at which you seem to excel , it being something of a necessity for you


But hey, maybe the people of Venezuela enjoy not having any basic necessities like food or toilet paper due to Maduro's stupidity :roll:[/QUOTE]

Fledermaus said:

Refer to post #9

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Whether you are prepared to admit it or not the fact remains that Maduro has the support of millions of Venezuelans and the man you support has virtually no democratic endorsement from the Venezuelan people having chosen not stood on the election himself but subsequently announce his presidency after being in cahoots with a foreign government

Tigerace117 said:

2/3rds of the people decided that it wasn't worth ending up in a dungeon to take a stand in a rigged election.

Why do you support starvation.

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Look what I found from your favourite website....

wiki said:

In a January 2018 poll surrounding the presidential election, Meganalisis stated that only 29% of respondents desired to vote in the elections and 72.5% stated that they did not trust the CNE electoral body. Those who chose not to vote had various reasons; 45% believed that even if they voted, hunger would continue, 20% believed it was a "waste of time", and 13% believed that the opposition had betrayed the country. As for the support of political parties, 81% stated that they were not part of any party, 12% were part of the government PSUV party, and 6% supported the opposition-led MUD

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2018 Venezuelan presidential election - Wikipedia

No mention of any fears of being put in dungeons or gunned down by thugs for voting the wrong way

Why do you feel compelled to peddle BS ?

oneworld2 said:

Some do and some don't

What they don't want , regardless of who they support , is the US or anyone else threatening to or carrying out an intervention. You and others here seem to want to ignore that whilst waxing lyrical about democracy and the wishes of the Venezuelan people in an obviously hypocritical/arrogant way

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In other words.... Venezuelans want Maduro out...

He is propped up now by the military, the Russians, the Cubans and armed toughs....

oneworld2 said:

Whether you are prepared to admit it or not the fact remains that Maduro has the support of millions of Venezuelans and the man you support has virtually no democratic endorsement from the Venezuelan people having chosen not stood on the election himself but subsequently announce his presidency after being in cahoots with a foreign government

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Still ignorant of the Constitution of Venezuela I see.

Maduro won a SHAM election in 2018 only "recognized" primarily by strongman governments and the losers of the cold war....

oneworld2 said:

Says the man that uses CAMERA , MEMRI , the IDF blog etc etc

Your entire commentary here is suspect and just sounds like it falls out of the state department offices regardless of what is under discussion

You only want to see anti Maduro sources being referred to because you have this penchant for echo chambers that confirm your biases. Makes me wonder why you joined a debate forum in the first place

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Still suspect.

justabubba said:

2018 Venezuelan presidential election - Wikipedia

Venezuela elections: Maduro wins second term | World news | The Guardian

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In an election fraught with problems...

And Antigua and Barbuda, Belarus, Bolivia, China, Cuba, Dominica, Egypt, El Salvador, Iran, North Korea, South Africa, Russia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Syria, Turkey (the only NATO member), Vietnam and the disputed state of the Saharawi Arab Democratic Republic (Western Sahara) recognized the election result ?

You know you are in good standing when dictators, despots, strongmen, the failed remnants of Socialism/Communism and a few other minor nations endorse you election.

Crovax said:

except the election wasnt legitimate and virtually every first world nation has chosen to not recognize the results. When only the "axis of evil" supports the results you know you are on the wrong side

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Guido is a lightweight and the sooner the US realizes that the better. These regime chang indulgences never work out.

Guido has become a useful ally of the market capable minority who led Venezuela before Chavez. If Maduro
is overthrown the fortunes of the country would tend upward, but the old problems would still exist.
Following World War II, former dictator Marcos Perez Jimenez encouraged the immigration of Europeans, Italians,
Portuguese and Germans to help move to “whiten” the country. Protests at least those in the capital are more
about returning the social and political elite to power again—and that's the root of what the conflict in
Venezuela is really about race and class.

Tigerace117 said:

2/3rds of the people decided that it wasn't worth ending up in a dungeon to take a stand in a rigged election.

Why do you support starvation.

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have not seen any cites about these purported dungeons. maybe you could share some

the starvation is the result of tRump policies against venezuela, which policies are exacting a toll on the citizens of that country who are most impoverished ... not unlike iran, and the result of israel's embargo on gaza. the citizens get hurt when the embargoed country is unable to engage in free trade.

surprised you did not know that

oneworld2 said:

Maybe because it's NOT a fact

Some of them do and some of them don't is the more accurate assessment but you don't care about accuracy, you just peddle whatever the US government line is regardless of the facts because you are compelled to for personal reasons

My view is and always has been that the Venezuelan people ALONE should be supported and assisted to sort their problems out between themselves , free from US ( or any other ) military threats or sanctions. The article shows that that is the view of most Venezuelans too which is something you have been careful to ignore :roll: in your now well known and constant resort to outright projection

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Lol if the Venezuelan people were actually left alone to sort things out Maduro would be out the door in about two seconds flat, which is why Moscow, Havana, and Beijing have made it clear they are utterly uninterested the Venezuelan people being left alone. Going into hysterics about the US government does not change that fact.

Except, again, Venezuela was going down the toilet long before the sanctions you cry about were implemented due to the stupidity of Chavez and Maduro. The sanctions do hamper the efforts of Maduro and his ministers to further enrich themselves at the expense of the people of Venezuela.....which is the real reason why you hate them so much.

Tigerace117 said:

Lol if the Venezuelan people were actually left alone to sort things out Maduro would be out the door in about two seconds flat, which is why Moscow, Havana, and Beijing have made it clear they are utterly uninterested the Venezuelan people being left alone. Going into hysterics about the US government does not change that fact.

Except, again, Venezuela was going down the toilet long before the sanctions you cry about were implemented due to the stupidity of Chavez and Maduro. The sanctions do hamper the efforts of Maduro and his ministers to further enrich themselves at the expense of the people of Venezuela.....which is the real reason why you hate them so much.

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there is no logic to your posts
you lament that venezuela is not left alone to sort its own politics while simultaneously celebrating the US sanctions which are harming that country's economy and the peoples' wellbeing

justabubba said:

have not seen any cites about these purported dungeons. maybe you could share some

the starvation is the result of tRump policies against venezuela, which policies are exacting a toll on the citizens of that country who are most impoverished ... not unlike iran, and the result of israel's embargo on gaza. the citizens get hurt when the embargoed country is unable to engage in free trade.

surprised you did not know that View attachment 67256802

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Except, again, Venezuela was falling into shambles long before the sanctions you cry about were implemented. This was because Chavez and Maduro both utterly failed to diversify the Venezuelan economy in any way, shape or form, preferring instead to act as Havana’s sugar daddy and pouring resources into colossal flops like the penisphone.

If You Visit Venezuela, Please Bring Us Back A Penisphone – Consumerist

For example.....

Fernando Alban: Venezuela protests over jailed opposition lawmaker's death - BBC News

An opposition figure committed “suicide” recently......by getting sent flying out a tenth story window.

The report added that other persistent concerns include poor prison conditions, impunity for human rights violations, and continuous harassment by government officials of human rights defenders and independent media outlets.[4] The report continues that in 2016, the Bolivarian National Intelligence Service (SEBIN) detained dozens of people on allegations of planning, fomenting, or participating in violent anti-government actions, including some that were, in fact, peaceful protests. Many say they have been tortured or otherwise abused in custody, or that they were unable to see their families or lawyers for hours, occasionally days, after an arrest. In several cases, prosecutors failed to present any credible evidence linking the accused to crimes. In some, the evidence included possession of political materials, including pamphlets calling for the release of political prisoners.[4] According to the Amnesty International report from 2016/2017 human rights defenders continued to be targeted with attacks and intimidation by state media and high-ranking government officials.[5]“

Human rights in Venezuela - Wikipedia

justabubba said:

there is no logic to your posts
you lament that venezuela is not left alone to sort its own politics while simultaneously celebrating the US sanctions which are harming that country's economy and the peoples' wellbeing

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The country, for the third time, was falling into shambles long before the sanctions were in place. The sanctions are not “trickle down sanctions”; they specifically target the Maduro regime. What really harms the people’s well being is the stupidity of one Nicholas Maduro.

oneworld2 said:

Look what I found from your favourite website....



2018 Venezuelan presidential election - Wikipedia

No mention of any fears of being put in dungeons or gunned down by thugs for voting the wrong way

Why do you feel compelled to peddle BS ?

Click to expand...

Your post literally admits that people didn’t want to vote in a rigged ejection, like I said(which makes the 2/3rds claim justabubba is tossing around even more meaningless).

Coming from a tankie, what you consider “BS” is irrelevant.

justabubba said:

there is no logic to your posts
you lament that venezuela is not left alone to sort its own politics while simultaneously celebrating the US sanctions which are harming that country's economy and the peoples' wellbeing

Click to expand...

You're very observant, no matter what old Tiger rails about it's almost impossible to find verifiable logic in any of his positions
np matter how hard one searches

Tigerace117 said:

Except, again, Venezuela was falling into shambles long before the sanctions you cry about were implemented. This was because Chavez and Maduro both utterly failed to diversify the Venezuelan economy in any way, shape or form, preferring instead to act as Havana’s sugar daddy and pouring resources into colossal flops like the penisphone.

If You Visit Venezuela, Please Bring Us Back A Penisphone – Consumerist

For example.....

Fernando Alban: Venezuela protests over jailed opposition lawmaker's death - BBC News

An opposition figure committed “suicide” recently......by getting sent flying out a tenth story window.

The report added that other persistent concerns include poor prison conditions, impunity for human rights violations, and continuous harassment by government officials of human rights defenders and independent media outlets.[4] The report continues that in 2016, the Bolivarian National Intelligence Service (SEBIN) detained dozens of people on allegations of planning, fomenting, or participating in violent anti-government actions, including some that were, in fact, peaceful protests. Many say they have been tortured or otherwise abused in custody, or that they were unable to see their families or lawyers for hours, occasionally days, after an arrest. In several cases, prosecutors failed to present any credible evidence linking the accused to crimes. In some, the evidence included possession of political materials, including pamphlets calling for the release of political prisoners.[4] According to the Amnesty International report from 2016/2017 human rights defenders continued to be targeted with attacks and intimidation by state media and high-ranking government officials.[5]“

Human rights in Venezuela - Wikipedia

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that portion of the report could have been written about the USA

Tigerace117 said:

The country, for the third time, was falling into shambles long before the sanctions were in place. The sanctions are not “trickle down sanctions”; they specifically target the Maduro regime. What really harms the people’s well being is the stupidity of one Nicholas Maduro.

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the USA purports to be pro-democracy but time and again precipitates the ouster of democratically elected officials it does not approve of, across the globe. it would appear that the public was very supportive of chavez:

... After Hugo Chávez was first elected President of Venezuela by a landslide in 1998, the South American country began to reassert sovereignty over its oil reserves. This action challenged the comfortable position held by U.S. economic interests for the better part of a century. The Chávez administration overturned the privatization of the state-owned oil company PDVSA, raising royalties for foreign firms and eventually doubling the country's GDP.[13] Those oil revenues were used to fund social programs aimed at fostering human development in areas such as health, education, employment, housing, technology, culture, pensions, and access to safe drinking water. ...

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United States–Venezuela relations - Wikipedia

how dare he re-acquire the country's own treasure and use it to foster 'human development in areas such as health, education, employment, housing, technology, culture, pensions, and access to safe drinking water'. how dare he undermine the oligarchy that pre-existed his election
it is obvious that is what this opposition is about: asserting a government working on behalf of the citizens

Tigerace117 said:

Your post literally admits that people didn’t want to vote in a rigged ejection, like I said(which makes the 2/3rds claim justabubba is tossing around even more meaningless).

Coming from a tankie, what you consider “BS” is irrelevant.

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there were people who did not want to vote for the available USA presidential candidates in 2016. did that cause the election of tRump to be invalid?

over 2/3 of the voters elected the man. nothing indicates that was a manipulated outcome. wish we could say that about our nation's last presidential election

slick said:

You're very observant, no matter what old Tiger rails about it's almost impossible to find verifiable logic in any of his positions
np matter how hard one searches

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Yes, we all know how much you struggle with things like basic logic.

Go crawl back under your rock and take your blithering with you.

justabubba said:

the USA purports to be pro-democracy but time and again precipitates the ouster of democratically elected officials it does not approve of, across the globe. it would appear that the public was very supportive of chavez:

United States–Venezuela relations - Wikipedia

how dare he re-acquire the country's own treasure and use it to foster 'human development in areas such as health, education, employment, housing, technology, culture, pensions, and access to safe drinking water'. how dare he undermine the oligarchy that pre-existed his election
it is obvious that is what this opposition is about: asserting a government working on behalf of the citizens

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You are aware that Chavez initially tried to take power in a coup(which, by the way, failed miserably).....right?

Painting him as some sort of bastion of the democratic process is laughable.

Yes, how dare he squander the resources of his country to the point where his people don’t have toilet paper, much less food or medicine.

Amazing how the country is having serious electrical problems, the hospitals are in collapse, anyone with an education is getting the hell out while they still can, the technological innovations like the penisphone turned out to be flops......it’s almost like Chavez, despite claiming to do all that, didn’t actually benefit his people.

justabubba said:

that portion of the report could have been written about the USA

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But it wasn’t, and trying to equate the two is flat out dumb. But hey, any straw is good enough to grasp at to defend the Maduro regime, no matter how thin, right?