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Thousands of immigrants pass through the Southern border. Why are they fleeing their home countries?

Kal'Stang said:
Stop playing ignorant. It's been talked enough about here that your attempt to play ignorant is pathetic.
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no need for you to **** on another DP member when they are politely asking for information .........
 
Floridafan said:
The Dream Act badly needs to be approved by Congress. Children should not be held liable for the acts of their parents.
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So that’s a no. Your bull**** about ‘following the law’ is just bull****. You believe in whatever is conveeeeeeeeenient to what you want.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
OrphanSlug said:
The elephant in the room has been there since the beginning, our so called "War on Drugs" created this mess.

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Because of how we have tried to police this to date (which is basically control the Gulf of Mexico and try to control the border with Mexico) we have forced the flow of drugs up from South America through a choke point of Nicaragua, Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador (and others) on their way up through Mexico and ultimately into the US anyway.

Gangs in these nations have done what organized crime always does when something is illegal but has a demand, fulfill and control the supply. Which means violence and/or interaction with governments in Nicaragua, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, some in Costa Rica, some in Panama, plenty all over Mexico, in plenty of US cities coast to coast, etc.

The US is still the primary consumer of these drugs and as such there will be continued interest in trying to control the supply of those drugs until we wake up and realize that like so many times before we created our own fiasco. Our spending on the so called War on Drugs crosses swim lanes with our Foreign Aid policy to these very nations which crosses swim lanes with our military spending (the list goes on) all in a futile effort to deal with the economic and social implications of this stupid war not just here in the US but in nations all over the Americas.

So now we have an immigration mess from these very nations where local conditions in these nations have devolved to utter ****, and we wonder why we see all these implications.

The solution is obvious. Change the very reason why MS-13, Barrio 18, and so many others exist in the first place by ending this stupidity that has been going on since the 1970's that has seen no measurable success yet plenty of fall out impacting everything from local law enforcement to immigration to foreign policy to our own fiscal condition and to our own social and economic climate.

This was failed, what we see today is a direct cause of it.
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It's refreshing to see honesty and integrity in a post rather than partisan hackery and apologia.
 
Kal'Stang said:
So what would you do? In the past we have let people that come into the US illegally out and about requiring that they come back on their court dates. VERY FEW ever actually made it to the court room. The rest fled across the country. And not all illegal immigrants that this happens to is a first time offender. Which means its a felony...hardly the equivalent of littering or running a stop sign huh?

Not to mention even the first time offenders often break other laws which are not the equivalent of littering. Like using stolen SSN's (identity theft, a felony) or using fake SSN's (felony fraud).
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What I wouldn’t do is try to govern based on the exceptions or hypothetical scenarios you cite. So as you consider itemizing what all of the possible numerators could be - I would ask that you keep those in perspective by thinking about what the denominator is. What I would do is exercise the same discretion that law enforcement across the country exercises all day every day as it relates to other misdemeanors. While law enforcement could technically arrest anyone and everyone for speeding, littering, running stop signs, etc. - it doesn’t do that because it’s not an efficient use of limited time or resources.

Arrests are typically reserved for particularly egregious acts and the same should apply to the misdemeanor of illegal entry. If there is a legitimate and demonstrable reason to suspect that an individual is a national security risk then, by all means, detain them pending a hearing. Otherwise, let them go pending a hearing and if they don’t show up or otherwise commit some additional crimes that warrant arrest then ICE can prioritize those cases accordingly. It’s true that the majority don’t show up but it’s also true that this policy change is occurring at great expense with no perceivable benefit - only a big fat black eye steming from the inhumanity of separating children as young as 18 months from their parents indefinitely. It’s not worth it in the name of holding these people more accountable for misdemeanors than we hold ourselves.
 
OrphanSlug said:
I'll note how quickly you resorted to the above foolishness.

Learn your history, these nations did not have these same issues until we ensured the drug trade went through these Central American nations. You can blame socialism, gangs that came to be just cause, or whatever else but all the evidence is there in direct contradiction to your notions.
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Yiou started bleating on about MS13 OBVIOUSLY not knowing the first ****ing thing about them...and want to talk about others understanding of history? You want to blame the US for the...which is it...collapse of a blossoming and developing capitalist Utopia or did we just prevent them from actually reaching their potential? Did we destroy the thriving Mecca of El Salvador? I reckon Honduras was on the verge of great wealth and prosperity until the drug trade came along. Venezuala....hmmmm...yes...even though they were an oil rich company...it was the US that killed their dreams and the drug trade...not ****ty leftists and their commusocialista governments.
 
Napoleon said:
What I wouldn’t do is try to govern based on the exceptions or hypothetical scenarios you cite. So as you consider itemizing what all of the possible numerators could be - I would ask that you keep those in perspective by thinking about what the denominator is. What I would do is exercise the same discretion that law enforcement across the country exercises all day every day as it relates to other misdemeanors. While law enforcement could technically arrest anyone and everyone for speeding, littering, running stop signs, etc. - it doesn’t do that because it’s not an efficient use of limited time or resources.
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They're not hypothetical. Illegal, but Not Undocumented

Napoleon said:
Arrests are typically reserved for particularly egregious acts and the same should apply to the misdemeanor of illegal entry. If there is a legitimate and demonstrable reason to suspect that an individual is a national security risk then, by all means, detain them pending a hearing. Otherwise, let them go pending a hearing and if they don’t show up or otherwise commit some additional crimes that warrant arrest then ICE can prioritize those cases accordingly. It’s true that the majority don’t show up but it’s also true that this policy change is occurring at great expense with no perceivable benefit - only a big fat black eye steming from the inhumanity of separating children as young as 18 months from their parents indefinitely. It’s not worth it in the name of holding these people more accountable for misdemeanors than we hold ourselves.
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Oh yes, this has worked SOOO well hasn't it? Especially in sanctuary states and cities. :roll:

When talking strictly about illegal entry into the US, yeah, first time offense is a misdemeanor. But after they enter illegally they commit far more crimes that are not a misdemeanor. That is a fact and it happens by the millions. There is a reason that so many pro-illegal folks like to bandy about misdemeanors yet want to ignore the consequences that result from allowing this particular type of misdemeanor. Which is why I consider the argument that its no more serious than littering is at best disingenuous. Besides, even littering can result in serious issues given enough time and littering. Don't believe me? Then have a health inspector check out any hoarders home that has been hoarding for 20-30 years. See how quickly they demand that it be cleaned up or they will condemn a place.
 
VanceMack said:
Yiou started bleating on about MS13 OBVIOUSLY not knowing the first ****ing thing about them...and want to talk about others understanding of history? You want to blame the US for the...which is it...collapse of a blossoming and developing capitalist Utopia or did we just prevent them from actually reaching their potential? Did we destroy the thriving Mecca of El Salvador? I reckon Honduras was on the verge of great wealth and prosperity until the drug trade came along. Venezuala....hmmmm...yes...even though they were an oil rich company...it was the US that killed their dreams and the drug trade...not ****ty leftists and their commusocialista governments.
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Now you are ensuring you let us all know you are lost in the rhetoric.

The fact of the matter is these gangs are causing so much havoc on these nations because they are working to control the supply of a drug trade where the US is the main buyer, we caused this as well as the immigration fiasco resulting from it.

Not a one of these nations had to be "thriving Mecca(s)" to be harmed by criminal element trying to control the drug trade.

You can pretend it is all because of the government model in these nations or some other factor but we know what these gangs want. And further, your earlier comment about MS-13 and the like forming (or becoming worse) in our prison systems. Take a wild stab in the dark on why they are there, you really think it had nothing to do with drugs?
 
Kal'Stang said:
They're not hypothetical. Illegal, but Not Undocumented



Oh yes, this has worked SOOO well hasn't it? Especially in sanctuary states and cities. :roll:

When talking strictly about illegal entry into the US, yeah, first time offense is a misdemeanor. But after they enter illegally they commit far more crimes that are not a misdemeanor. That is a fact and it happens by the millions. There is a reason that so many pro-illegal folks like to bandy about misdemeanors yet want to ignore the consequences that result from allowing this particular type of misdemeanor. Which is why I consider the argument that its no more serious than littering is at best disingenuous. Besides, even littering can result in serious issues given enough time and littering. Don't believe me? Then have a health inspector check out any hoarders home that has been hoarding for 20-30 years. See how quickly they demand that it be cleaned up or they will condemn a place.
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Tell your story in numbers. What percentage of illegal immigrants go on to commit the crimes you mention? How do these crime rates among illegal immigrant populations compare to those among the citizenry? What are the actual impacts in relation the benefits? Because it seems to me you’re blowing all of that way out of proportion to justify an insanely costly and inhumane practice of jailing and prosecuting everyone for misdemeanors based on the assumption that some as yet undefined percentage of them might commit additional crimes in the future if released.

As for how well it works...ask the farmers who grow most of the nation’s produce. They’re saying there’s a labor shortage putting farm-to-table yields at risk so I guess Americans don’t want to do intense manual labor in the sweltering summer sun for peanuts after all.
 
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OrphanSlug said:
Now you are ensuring you let us all know you are lost in the rhetoric.

The fact of the matter is these gangs are causing so much havoc on these nations because they are working to control the supply of a drug trade where the US is the main buyer, we caused this as well as the immigration fiasco resulting from it.

Not a one of these nations had to be "thriving Mecca(s)" to be harmed by criminal element trying to control the drug trade.

You can pretend it is all because of the government model in these nations or some other factor but we know what these gangs want. And further, your earlier comment about MS-13 and the like forming (or becoming worse) in our prison systems. Take a wild stab in the dark on why they are there, you really think it had nothing to do with drugs?
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:lamo'


Dood...its comical. You bleat on about their history...then prove....you know less than dick about their history.

Classic.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Simple question.

Is the USA the worlds police and care givers?
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No, but we have often done our part, especially the police part. When you say countries are "in your front yard," as we did about the region, gotta expect that they will eventually knock on your door. The US has interfered in the three countries mentioned for decades, for better or worse depending on your viewpoint, often preaching democracy while destroying it. We made history, many of their citizens were its victims. Small payback to shelter refugees. Think of the Vietnamese. They had the burden of bombs; we had the burden of resettling refugees... To our benefit.
 
Napoleon said:
Tell your story in numbers. What percentage of illegal immigrants go on to commit the crimes you mention? How do these crime rates among illegal immigrant populations compare to those among the citizenry? What are the actual impacts in relation the benefits? Because it seems to me you’re blowing all of that way out of proportion to justify an insanely costly and inhumane practice of jailing and prosecuting everyone for misdemeanors based on the assumption that some as yet undefined percentage of them might commit additional crimes in the future if released.
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You apparently didn't even read the link I gave you as the very first point that they make gives you a percentage of illegals that use fraudulent SS cards.

Illegal immigrants are not “undocumented.” They have fraudulent documents such as counterfeit Social Security cards, forged drivers licenses, fake “green cards,” and phony birth certificates. Experts suggest that approximately 75 percent of working-age illegal aliens use fraudulent Social Security cards to obtain employment.
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You are apparently not even going to take the time to educate yourself on the subject. 75% btw translates into roughly 7 million. Pretty sure there aren't 7 million citizens doing that.

Napoleon said:
As for how well it works...ask the farmers who grow most of the nation’s produce. They’re saying there’s a labor shortage putting farm-to-table yields at risk so I guess Americans don’t want to do intense manual labor in the sweltering summer sun for peanuts after all.
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You're right, Americans don't want to work in the fields for peanuts. Perhaps they should be paid more. And yes, that would raise the prices. By a few cents. Whoop dee doo.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Pretty sure you've seen it and heard about the court ruling on it. Why act as if you haven't?
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There hasn't been a court ruling on it, except one that said they can't be held longer than 20 days...unaccompanied minors aren't accompanied by their parents.....so don't try to say this applies to accompanied children.
 
Kal'Stang said:
That's rich considering you seem to have no problem with people that break the law and enter the country illegally. Often multiple times.
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Asylees aren't breaking into the country...they are presenting petitions for asylum
 
Kal'Stang said:
You apparently didn't even read the link I gave you as the very first point that they make gives you a percentage of illegals that use fraudulent SS cards.



You are apparently not even going to take the time to educate yourself on the subject. 75% btw translates into roughly 7 million. Pretty sure there aren't 7 million citizens doing that.



You're right, Americans don't want to work in the fields for peanuts. Perhaps they should be paid more. And yes, that would raise the prices. By a few cents. Whoop dee doo.
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Most illegal immigrants use ITIN numbers to report tax
 
ClaraD said:
Your link says they have to be released to legal guardians or next of kin
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Where do you think they'll go if there is no next of kin or legal guardian in the country?

It's not a rhetorical question. I really want to know....

....it doesn't allow them to be detained unless there is a compelling reason...like the child has been convicted of a serious crime.
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I'm having difficulty understanding who you are trying to argue. The law is that children cannot be detained with their parents. After 30 days, they are placed in a detention facility.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Simple question.

Is the USA the worlds police and care givers?
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According to the rightwing whenever an oil producing region is in chaos, yes.

But, apparently not when it's our own mess, in our own back yard.

Who do you think weakened these governments? Ever heard of the term Banana Republic?

Who do you think pressured the weak governments to fight the drug cartels? Could it be the country waging a war on drugs?

There is policing the world, and there is fixing your mistakes. This falls under fixing your mistakes.

It is the US and solely the US's fault that criminal organizations are running rampant in central and south america. That is a fact. A verifiable, known fact. And if you don't know that, then you're choosing not to know it. Why? Because it's not convenient in the narrative that the brown people are causing the poor white people problems by existing.

It's gotten to the point, where, I'm just assuming people that are defending Trump on immigration, are just racist. Only explanation for the cognitive dissonance. Literally, the only explanation.

You don't like that brown people will be the majority sooner, rather than later. And so will accept any measure to curb or halt the process. Including human rights violations, and ****ting on the bill of rights. And when presented on why these people are escaping, your only responses is, How is that our responsibility.

When people are suffering from our actions, policies, and demand, and trying to escape death as a result. And your response is they need their kids taken, put in jail, denied asylum and treated less than human. And your only defense is they broke a misdemeanor law they had no way of knowing existed. And their problems are their own.

Then you are a terrible human being, a terrible American, and one can only assume a racist.

This has been a public service announcement from someone who is done with Trump Supporter bull****. No, I don't have to entertain your opinions as valid. No I don't have to give you the benefit of the doubt on being a decent person who has good reasons for your opinions. No I don't have to care about your insane ideas of what right and wrong are. No I don't have listen to the same tired bull**** over and over and over again, especially when 99.9% of said bull**** is demonstrably false.

And because I know it's coming. The reason why people keep bringing up the race card in these discussions, is because Trump supporters are pretty ****ing racist. They can deny it, they can ask how something is racist til they are blue in the face. But the reason why every single topic always comes down to them complaining about the race card, is because they are defending some racist ****.

Like this ****, right here. Separating kids at the border. Every single one of you should be ashamed of yourself. Deeply ashamed.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
According to the rightwing whenever an oil producing region is in chaos, yes.

But, apparently not when it's our own mess, in our own back yard.

Who do you think weakened these governments? Ever heard of the term Banana Republic?

Who do you think pressured the weak governments to fight the drug cartels? Could it be the country waging a war on drugs?

There is policing the world, and there is fixing your mistakes. This falls under fixing your mistakes.

It is the US and solely the US's fault that criminal organizations are running rampant in central and south america. That is a fact. A verifiable, known fact. And if you don't know that, then you're choosing not to know it. Why? Because it's not convenient in the narrative that the brown people are causing the poor white people problems by existing.

It's gotten to the point, where, I'm just assuming people that are defending Trump on immigration, are just racist. Only explanation for the cognitive dissonance. Literally, the only explanation.

You don't like that brown people will be the majority sooner, rather than later. And so will accept any measure to curb or halt the process. Including human rights violations, and ****ting on the bill of rights. And when presented on why these people are escaping, your only responses is, How is that our responsibility.

When people are suffering from our actions, policies, and demand, and trying to escape death as a result. And your response is they need their kids taken, put in jail, denied asylum and treated less than human. And your only defense is they broke a misdemeanor law they had no way of knowing existed. And their problems are their own.

Then you are a terrible human being, a terrible American, and one can only assume a racist.

This has been a public service announcement from someone who is done with Trump Supporter bull****. No, I don't have to entertain your opinions as valid. No I don't have to give you the benefit of the doubt on being a decent person who has good reasons for your opinions. No I don't have to care about your insane ideas of what right and wrong are. No I don't have listen to the same tired bull**** over and over and over again, especially when 99.9% of said bull**** is demonstrably false.

And because I know it's coming. The reason why people keep bringing up the race card in these discussions, is because Trump supporters are pretty ****ing racist. They can deny it, they can ask how something is racist til they are blue in the face. But the reason why every single topic always comes down to them complaining about the race card, is because they are defending some racist ****.

Like this ****, right here. Separating kids at the border. Every single one of you should be ashamed of yourself. Deeply ashamed.
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You know what, go ahead, call me racist. The term has lost all meaning because people like you over use it. You apply it to anyone that doesn't toe your line. Doesn't actually matter to you if they actually are racists or not. You just want to try and shame people. Guess what....not going to work. Why? Because I know I don't give a **** about skin color. Make the claim all that you want. It just shows a lack of intellectual thought and that you have no valid arguments.

You are dismissed.
 
Kal'Stang said:
You know what, go ahead, call me racist. The term has lost all meaning because people like you over use it.
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The term has meaning.
 
Kal'Stang said:
You know what, go ahead, call me racist. The term has lost all meaning because people like you over use it. You apply it to anyone that doesn't toe your line. Doesn't actually matter to you if they actually are racists or not. You just want to try and shame people. Guess what....not going to work. Why? Because I know I don't give a **** about skin color. Make the claim all that you want. It just shows a lack of intellectual thought and that you have no valid arguments.

You are dismissed.
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And like I said, saw that one coming. Ever consider that it's being used so much, because it's true?

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck, but claims to be a swan. Then it's just a retarded duck who can't figure out why the other swans believes he's a duck.

Something to think on. While your advocating for human rights violations. Oh and don't think I won't be mentioning your position here on this issue the next time you try and use the constitution to justify any thing. Anything at all. Far as I'm concerned anyone that defends this bull**** just lost all credibility on the bill of rights. All credibility. ALL.
 
ecofarm said:
The term has meaning.
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It no longer has the bite it used to. Whether you want to admit it or not. It's been used so much in the last 10 years that people are starting to just roll their eyes and ignore it.
 
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