Israeli-Palestinian Dispute: Solutions Thread

[PeteEU]

For any solution to be possible, the radicals on both sides need to be tackled.

Hezbollah: The reason this party even exists is because of Israeli actions into Lebanon and occupation of Lebanese land. Now most of that land was given up long ago, but Israel still occupies a small portion of disputed land. Give that up, and Hezbollah will have a legitimacy issue. It is a small price to pay in the long run. By doing this, Hezbollah becomes a political party in Lebanon, and nothing more.

Hamas: This is a tricky one. Hamas exists because of corruption and the inability of the PLO to get the job done. One of the main issues that keep Hamas in power is their ability to provide for their people (the little they can) and use Israeli aggression against the Palestinians in Gaza as an excuse to hang on power. Stop that aggression and their power base will fall away. For example, Israel and the Palestinian Authority come to an agreement on Gaza and opening up of borders and no aggression. It will weaken Hamas big time, because Hamas policies could not do that. However it is risky and tricky...

Israeli settlers: This is probably the biggest hurdle, since they have massive political power in the current government and on the right in general. Here we are dealing with die hard religious zealots that believe that it is their divine right to live in the occupied areas and in Palestine it self. They make political opportunists like Hamas and Hezbollah look like angels.

Israeli right wing: Plagued by corruption scandals, their only hold on power is the threat of the Palestinians. Vote them out.. problem solved.

These 4 groups are the main problems with any peace plan.. deal with them, and we can move forward. In the end there has been a deal on a 2 state solution with land swaps and so on, but ultimately the problem comes down to Jerusalem.

In my opinion, Jerusalem should be made an international city state, run by the 3 main faiths. It is the only real solution as long as we entertain religion in a modern society. One religion can not run things, as we have seen with the Jews abusing their powers by evicting Christians and Muslims from their homes. Hell one could hand the city state over the the Buddists, as they have zero interest in the place... point is, we can not have one religion run the place without there being problems. Unless of course you put in laws and rules that make all 3 religions equal in the law.

But nothing will change as long as the radicals are setting the agenda on both sides.

 

[Apocalypse]

For any solution to be possible, the radicals on both sides need to be tackled.

Hezbollah: The reason this party even exists is because of Israeli actions into Lebanon and occupation of Lebanese land. Now most of that land was given up long ago, but Israel still occupies a small portion of disputed land. Give that up, and Hezbollah will have a legitimacy issue. It is a small price to pay in the long run. By doing this, Hezbollah becomes a political party in Lebanon, and nothing more.

Hamas: This is a tricky one. Hamas exists because of corruption and the inability of the PLO to get the job done. One of the main issues that keep Hamas in power is their ability to provide for their people (the little they can) and use Israeli aggression against the Palestinians in Gaza as an excuse to hang on power. Stop that aggression and their power base will fall away. For example, Israel and the Palestinian Authority come to an agreement on Gaza and opening up of borders and no aggression. It will weaken Hamas big time, because Hamas policies could not do that. However it is risky and tricky...

Israeli settlers: This is probably the biggest hurdle, since they have massive political power in the current government and on the right in general. Here we are dealing with die hard religious zealots that believe that it is their divine right to live in the occupied areas and in Palestine it self. They make political opportunists like Hamas and Hezbollah look like angels.

Israeli right wing: Plagued by corruption scandals, their only hold on power is the threat of the Palestinians. Vote them out.. problem solved.

These 4 groups are the main problems with any peace plan.. deal with them, and we can move forward. In the end there has been a deal on a 2 state solution with land swaps and so on, but ultimately the problem comes down to Jerusalem.

In my opinion, Jerusalem should be made an international city state, run by the 3 main faiths. It is the only real solution as long as we entertain religion in a modern society. One religion can not run things, as we have seen with the Jews abusing their powers by evicting Christians and Muslims from their homes. Hell one could hand the city state over the the Buddists, as they have zero interest in the place... point is, we can not have one religion run the place without there being problems. Unless of course you put in laws and rules that make all 3 religions equal in the law.

But nothing will change as long as the radicals are setting the agenda on both sides.

Clearly the notion that Israel is wrong on everything, responsible for everything and that through its actions alone the conflict with surrounding terror groups can cease, as demonstrated in your comment here, is the main reason for why the conflict exists. It is that notion that gives the radicals the belief that Israel could be removed one day, that Jerusalem can cease being the Israeli capital or that the Israeli military will stop defending its citizens.

 

[ido_]

would israel believe it necessary to violate that green line to "protect" the jewish residents of Palestine?
if so, then the jews should go, to eliminate an additional ruse for israel to violate the sovereign lands of another people

So you are saying Jews cant live in Palestine because Palestinians will probably butcher them?

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[justabubba]

So you are saying Jews cant live in Palestine because Palestinians will probably butcher them?

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nope. i never said that
what i ardently believe is that the israeli government would use any alleged risk to the jewish settlers as a ruse to justify again violating the sovereign borders of another people

 

[What if...?]

Clearly the notion that Israel is wrong on everything, responsible for everything and that through its actions alone the conflict with surrounding terror groups can cease, as demonstrated in your comment here, is the main reason for why the conflict exists. It is that notion that gives the radicals the belief that Israel could be removed one day, that Jerusalem can cease being the Israeli capital or that the Israeli military will stop defending its citizens.

We all know that isn't true.

Israel is the one country in history that has never done a wrong thing.

Ever.

 

[CJ 2.0]

nope. i never said that
what i ardently believe is that the israeli government would use any alleged risk to the jewish settlers as a ruse to justify again violating the sovereign borders of another people

So they wouldn’t actually be at any risk, but Israel would pretend they are? Is that what you’re saying?


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[PeteEU]

Clearly the notion that Israel is wrong on everything, responsible for everything and that through its actions alone the conflict with surrounding terror groups can cease, as demonstrated in your comment here, is the main reason for why the conflict exists. It is that notion that gives the radicals the belief that Israel could be removed one day, that Jerusalem can cease being the Israeli capital or that the Israeli military will stop defending its citizens.

Israel is not wrong on everything, but they bear a big responsibility to the problems that there are. And you and your cronies denying this.. only makes things worse. It is like saying that the rape victim was dressed slutty and was asking for it...

The terrorists are responsible for their actions against Israel, however Israel is responsible for the terrorists doing it in the first place because of the Israeli policy towards the occupied territories. Like it or not, the Palestinian intifada did not just come from nothing and you know it. Israeli land grabbing, abuses, and so on have caused the rebellion and defacto the terrorist attacks. It does in no way justify the attacks, but explains them. It is no different to what the Jewish terrorists did to get the state of Israel in the first place... yes the irony.

There is a saying.. for every action, there is a reaction. For every Israeli injustice towards the Palestinians, there is a reaction by the Palestinians, which in turn means another reaction by Israel... at this point, it has turned into the chicken and the egg.. which came first..

So the only way to stop this cycle of violence is for both sides to stand down.. stop the Israeli abuses against the Palestinians and the Palestinians stop the reaction to those abuses. Problem is of course... the radicals on both sides wont allow that. The settlers are known for attacks and killing of Palestinians, which then causes a reaction by the Palestinians. Hamas is known for sending rockets over the border, which then means the IDF has to react disproportionately, which then means Hamas has to get revenge for this and the cycle continues.

 

[justabubba]

So they wouldn’t actually be at any risk, but Israel would pretend they are? Is that what you’re saying?


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yes. not a farfetched assumption recognizing that israel, the only nuclear power in the region, with the exponentially strongest military in the region, cites fear of its demise from the Palestinian people, who are armed primarily with rocks

 

[CJ 2.0]

yes. not a farfetched assumption recognizing that israel, the only nuclear power in the region, with the exponentially strongest military in the region, cites fear of its demise from the Palestinian people, who are armed primarily with rocks

Sorry, not a far fetched assumption that any Jews left under Palestinian control wouldn’t be at any risk?


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[Apocalypse]

Israel is not wrong on everything, but they bear a big responsibility to the problems that there are. And you and your cronies denying this.. only makes things worse. It is like saying that the rape victim was dressed slutty and was asking for it...

The terrorists are responsible for their actions against Israel, however Israel is responsible for the terrorists doing it in the first place because of the Israeli policy towards the occupied territories. Like it or not, the Palestinian intifada did not just come from nothing and you know it. Israeli land grabbing, abuses, and so on have caused the rebellion and defacto the terrorist attacks. It does in no way justify the attacks, but explains them. It is no different to what the Jewish terrorists did to get the state of Israel in the first place... yes the irony.

There is a saying.. for every action, there is a reaction. For every Israeli injustice towards the Palestinians, there is a reaction by the Palestinians, which in turn means another reaction by Israel... at this point, it has turned into the chicken and the egg.. which came first..

So the only way to stop this cycle of violence is for both sides to stand down.. stop the Israeli abuses against the Palestinians and the Palestinians stop the reaction to those abuses. Problem is of course... the radicals on both sides wont allow that. The settlers are known for attacks and killing of Palestinians, which then causes a reaction by the Palestinians. Hamas is known for sending rockets over the border, which then means the IDF has to react disproportionately, which then means Hamas has to get revenge for this and the cycle continues.

We're merely playing pretend here as if the solution to cease the violence is not for the Palestinians to stop engaging in it.
This isn't the chicken and the egg, there is a conclusive answer here regarding who uses violence and who is on the defense.
The occupation doesn't predate Palestinian terrorism so your words become quite meaningless, however even if it did the justification for maintaining it is Palestinian terrorism and violence. You can't merely say "Israel should first lift the occupation" without changing anything on the subject of Palestinian violence it's clearly not going to happen and clearly a nation is not going to just allow and expose its citizens to violence without attempting to curb it.

 

[oneworld2]

We're merely playing pretend here as if the solution to cease the violence is not for the Palestinians to stop engaging in it.

The solution lies in BOTH SIDES ceasing the violence

This isn't the chicken and the egg, there is a conclusive answer here regarding who uses violence and who is on the defense.

Nope, both sides use violence

The occupation doesn't predate Palestinian terrorism so your words become quite meaningless, however even if it did the justification for maintaining it is Palestinian terrorism and violence.

And Palestinian terrorism doesn't predate Zionism and what that meant for the Palestinians if realised, which it was

You can't merely say "Israel should first lift the occupation" without changing anything on the subject of Palestinian violence it's clearly not going to happen and clearly a nation is not going to just allow and expose its citizens to violence without attempting to curb it.

It's a two way street

The way forward concerning Gaza/Israel relations is to see Israel and Hamas agree a long term truce whereby no rocket attacks on Israel is matched by no aggression towards all Gazans and a lifting of the blockade

Whilst I think you can only see violence from the Palestinian side, I assure you it exists on the Israeli side too. Both sides have and do resort to it, that's just stating the obvious but if that's what ya have to do...........

 

[Apocalypse]

The solution lies in BOTH SIDES ceasing the violence



Nope, both sides use violence



And Palestinian terrorism doesn't predate Zionism and what that meant for the Palestinians if realised, which it was




It's a two way street

The way forward concerning Gaza/Israel relations is to see Israel and Hamas agree a long term truce whereby no rocket attacks on Israel is matched by no aggression towards all Gazans and a lifting of the blockade

Whilst I think you can only see violence from the Palestinian side, I assure you it exists on the Israeli side too. Both sides have and do resort to it, that's just stating the obvious but if that's what ya have to do...........

Israel's initiatives have always been defensive.

 

[justabubba]

Israel's initiatives have always been defensive.

always "preemptive"
another term for throwing the first punch

 

[Apocalypse]

always "preemptive"
another term for throwing the first punch

Another term for defensive actually.

 

[justabubba]

Another term for defensive actually.

a justification for throwing the first punch, in fact

 

[Apocalypse]

a justification for throwing the first punch, in fact

Call it what you want. A defensive action is defensive.

 

[justabubba]

Call it what you want. A defensive action is defensive.

and a thrown first punch is the initiation of a physical conflict

 

[CJ 2.0]

and a thrown first punch is the initiation of a physical conflict

Actually, in law, the act of pulling back your fist to strike is the initiation of physical conflict.

#factsmatter


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[oneworld2]

Israel's initiatives have always been defensive.

That's your mantra but I don't think it stands up to scrutiny.

Even the people that have been in the decision making positions on certain events have been honest about their actions not constituting a defence

 

[oneworld2]

and a thrown first punch is the initiation of a physical conflict

Bubba , you only have to look at the comments made by Moshe Dayan concerning the Israeli initiated provocations against the Syrians prior to the 6 day war to know that some of those that actually took part and planned these military actions are more honest about the situations than the stuff we see on here

 

[Fledermaus]

Bubba , you only have to look at the comments made by Moshe Dayan concerning the Israeli initiated provocations against the Syrians prior to the 6 day war to know that some of those that actually took part and planned these military actions are more honest about the situations than the stuff we see on here

''I'm not saying that. Of course they wanted the Syrians to get out of their face. They suffered a lot because of the Syrians. Look, as I said before, they were sitting in the kibbutzim and they worked the land and had kids and lived there and wanted to live there. The Syrians across from them were soldiers who fired at them, and of course they didn't like it.
- Moshe Dayan

 

[Apocalypse]

That's your mantra but I don't think it stands up to scrutiny.

Even the people that have been in the decision making positions on certain events have been honest about their actions not constituting a defence

I don't do history revisionism. Your approach of using quotations taken out of context or misunderstood is irrelevant in my view. Facts remain facts, you don't get to change them.

 

[ido_]

nope. i never said that
what i ardently believe is that the israeli government would use any alleged risk to the jewish settlers as a ruse to justify again violating the sovereign borders of another people

Why on earth would the Israeli government go into military adventures with its peace keeping loving Palestinian neighbors.

 

[briand515]

The solution is for Palestinians to take what they can get (they had so many offers and refused all of them) and stop supporting terrorism (Hamas). If I were Palestinian I would be satisfied with whatever state I was able to get and stop making ridiculous demands like the “right of return”.

 

[X Factor]

For any solution to be possible, the radicals on both sides need to be tackled.

Hezbollah: The reason this party even exists is because of Israeli actions into Lebanon and occupation of Lebanese land. Now most of that land was given up long ago, but Israel still occupies a small portion of disputed land. Give that up, and Hezbollah will have a legitimacy issue. It is a small price to pay in the long run. By doing this, Hezbollah becomes a political party in Lebanon, and nothing more.

Hamas: This is a tricky one. Hamas exists because of corruption and the inability of the PLO to get the job done. One of the main issues that keep Hamas in power is their ability to provide for their people (the little they can) and use Israeli aggression against the Palestinians in Gaza as an excuse to hang on power. Stop that aggression and their power base will fall away. For example, Israel and the Palestinian Authority come to an agreement on Gaza and opening up of borders and no aggression. It will weaken Hamas big time, because Hamas policies could not do that. However it is risky and tricky...

Israeli settlers: This is probably the biggest hurdle, since they have massive political power in the current government and on the right in general. Here we are dealing with die hard religious zealots that believe that it is their divine right to live in the occupied areas and in Palestine it self. They make political opportunists like Hamas and Hezbollah look like angels.

Israeli right wing: Plagued by corruption scandals, their only hold on power is the threat of the Palestinians. Vote them out.. problem solved.

These 4 groups are the main problems with any peace plan.. deal with them, and we can move forward. In the end there has been a deal on a 2 state solution with land swaps and so on, but ultimately the problem comes down to Jerusalem.

In my opinion, Jerusalem should be made an international city state, run by the 3 main faiths. It is the only real solution as long as we entertain religion in a modern society. One religion can not run things, as we have seen with the Jews abusing their powers by evicting Christians and Muslims from their homes. Hell one could hand the city state over the the Buddists, as they have zero interest in the place... point is, we can not have one religion run the place without there being problems. Unless of course you put in laws and rules that make all 3 religions equal in the law.

But nothing will change as long as the radicals are setting the agenda on both sides.

Right, Israeli settlers are much, much worse than Hamas and Hezzbolah combined. :roll: