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Thread: Israeli-Palestinian Dispute: Solutions Thread

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    Re: Israeli-Palestinian Dispute: Solutions Thread

    For any solution to be possible, the radicals on both sides need to be tackled.

    Hezbollah: The reason this party even exists is because of Israeli actions into Lebanon and occupation of Lebanese land. Now most of that land was given up long ago, but Israel still occupies a small portion of disputed land. Give that up, and Hezbollah will have a legitimacy issue. It is a small price to pay in the long run. By doing this, Hezbollah becomes a political party in Lebanon, and nothing more.

    Hamas: This is a tricky one. Hamas exists because of corruption and the inability of the PLO to get the job done. One of the main issues that keep Hamas in power is their ability to provide for their people (the little they can) and use Israeli aggression against the Palestinians in Gaza as an excuse to hang on power. Stop that aggression and their power base will fall away. For example, Israel and the Palestinian Authority come to an agreement on Gaza and opening up of borders and no aggression. It will weaken Hamas big time, because Hamas policies could not do that. However it is risky and tricky...

    Israeli settlers: This is probably the biggest hurdle, since they have massive political power in the current government and on the right in general. Here we are dealing with die hard religious zealots that believe that it is their divine right to live in the occupied areas and in Palestine it self. They make political opportunists like Hamas and Hezbollah look like angels.

    Israeli right wing: Plagued by corruption scandals, their only hold on power is the threat of the Palestinians. Vote them out.. problem solved.

    These 4 groups are the main problems with any peace plan.. deal with them, and we can move forward. In the end there has been a deal on a 2 state solution with land swaps and so on, but ultimately the problem comes down to Jerusalem.

    In my opinion, Jerusalem should be made an international city state, run by the 3 main faiths. It is the only real solution as long as we entertain religion in a modern society. One religion can not run things, as we have seen with the Jews abusing their powers by evicting Christians and Muslims from their homes. Hell one could hand the city state over the the Buddists, as they have zero interest in the place... point is, we can not have one religion run the place without there being problems. Unless of course you put in laws and rules that make all 3 religions equal in the law.

    But nothing will change as long as the radicals are setting the agenda on both sides.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Israeli-Palestinian Dispute: Solutions Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    For any solution to be possible, the radicals on both sides need to be tackled.

    Hezbollah: The reason this party even exists is because of Israeli actions into Lebanon and occupation of Lebanese land. Now most of that land was given up long ago, but Israel still occupies a small portion of disputed land. Give that up, and Hezbollah will have a legitimacy issue. It is a small price to pay in the long run. By doing this, Hezbollah becomes a political party in Lebanon, and nothing more.

    Hamas: This is a tricky one. Hamas exists because of corruption and the inability of the PLO to get the job done. One of the main issues that keep Hamas in power is their ability to provide for their people (the little they can) and use Israeli aggression against the Palestinians in Gaza as an excuse to hang on power. Stop that aggression and their power base will fall away. For example, Israel and the Palestinian Authority come to an agreement on Gaza and opening up of borders and no aggression. It will weaken Hamas big time, because Hamas policies could not do that. However it is risky and tricky...

    Israeli settlers: This is probably the biggest hurdle, since they have massive political power in the current government and on the right in general. Here we are dealing with die hard religious zealots that believe that it is their divine right to live in the occupied areas and in Palestine it self. They make political opportunists like Hamas and Hezbollah look like angels.

    Israeli right wing: Plagued by corruption scandals, their only hold on power is the threat of the Palestinians. Vote them out.. problem solved.

    These 4 groups are the main problems with any peace plan.. deal with them, and we can move forward. In the end there has been a deal on a 2 state solution with land swaps and so on, but ultimately the problem comes down to Jerusalem.

    In my opinion, Jerusalem should be made an international city state, run by the 3 main faiths. It is the only real solution as long as we entertain religion in a modern society. One religion can not run things, as we have seen with the Jews abusing their powers by evicting Christians and Muslims from their homes. Hell one could hand the city state over the the Buddists, as they have zero interest in the place... point is, we can not have one religion run the place without there being problems. Unless of course you put in laws and rules that make all 3 religions equal in the law.

    But nothing will change as long as the radicals are setting the agenda on both sides.
    Clearly the notion that Israel is wrong on everything, responsible for everything and that through its actions alone the conflict with surrounding terror groups can cease, as demonstrated in your comment here, is the main reason for why the conflict exists. It is that notion that gives the radicals the belief that Israel could be removed one day, that Jerusalem can cease being the Israeli capital or that the Israeli military will stop defending its citizens.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: Israeli-Palestinian Dispute: Solutions Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    would israel believe it necessary to violate that green line to "protect" the jewish residents of Palestine?
    if so, then the jews should go, to eliminate an additional ruse for israel to violate the sovereign lands of another people
    So you are saying Jews cant live in Palestine because Palestinians will probably butcher them?

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    Re: Israeli-Palestinian Dispute: Solutions Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ido_ View Post
    So you are saying Jews cant live in Palestine because Palestinians will probably butcher them?

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    nope. i never said that
    what i ardently believe is that the israeli government would use any alleged risk to the jewish settlers as a ruse to justify again violating the sovereign borders of another people
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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    ... Ted has a big pair of boots and a small pair of balls.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
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    Re: Israeli-Palestinian Dispute: Solutions Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Clearly the notion that Israel is wrong on everything, responsible for everything and that through its actions alone the conflict with surrounding terror groups can cease, as demonstrated in your comment here, is the main reason for why the conflict exists. It is that notion that gives the radicals the belief that Israel could be removed one day, that Jerusalem can cease being the Israeli capital or that the Israeli military will stop defending its citizens.
    We all know that isn't true.

    Israel is the one country in history that has never done a wrong thing.

    Ever.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: Israeli-Palestinian Dispute: Solutions Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    nope. i never said that
    what i ardently believe is that the israeli government would use any alleged risk to the jewish settlers as a ruse to justify again violating the sovereign borders of another people
    So they wouldn’t actually be at any risk, but Israel would pretend they are? Is that what you’re saying?


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    Re: Israeli-Palestinian Dispute: Solutions Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Clearly the notion that Israel is wrong on everything, responsible for everything and that through its actions alone the conflict with surrounding terror groups can cease, as demonstrated in your comment here, is the main reason for why the conflict exists. It is that notion that gives the radicals the belief that Israel could be removed one day, that Jerusalem can cease being the Israeli capital or that the Israeli military will stop defending its citizens.
    Israel is not wrong on everything, but they bear a big responsibility to the problems that there are. And you and your cronies denying this.. only makes things worse. It is like saying that the rape victim was dressed slutty and was asking for it...

    The terrorists are responsible for their actions against Israel, however Israel is responsible for the terrorists doing it in the first place because of the Israeli policy towards the occupied territories. Like it or not, the Palestinian intifada did not just come from nothing and you know it. Israeli land grabbing, abuses, and so on have caused the rebellion and defacto the terrorist attacks. It does in no way justify the attacks, but explains them. It is no different to what the Jewish terrorists did to get the state of Israel in the first place... yes the irony.

    There is a saying.. for every action, there is a reaction. For every Israeli injustice towards the Palestinians, there is a reaction by the Palestinians, which in turn means another reaction by Israel... at this point, it has turned into the chicken and the egg.. which came first..

    So the only way to stop this cycle of violence is for both sides to stand down.. stop the Israeli abuses against the Palestinians and the Palestinians stop the reaction to those abuses. Problem is of course... the radicals on both sides wont allow that. The settlers are known for attacks and killing of Palestinians, which then causes a reaction by the Palestinians. Hamas is known for sending rockets over the border, which then means the IDF has to react disproportionately, which then means Hamas has to get revenge for this and the cycle continues.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Israeli-Palestinian Dispute: Solutions Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ 2.0 View Post
    So they wouldn’t actually be at any risk, but Israel would pretend they are? Is that what you’re saying?


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    yes. not a farfetched assumption recognizing that israel, the only nuclear power in the region, with the exponentially strongest military in the region, cites fear of its demise from the Palestinian people, who are armed primarily with rocks
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    Quote Originally Posted by 1751Texan View Post
    ... Ted has a big pair of boots and a small pair of balls.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Have you ever noticed that the people who say "that's the way the cookies crumble" are invariably the same people who eat the cookies?

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    Re: Israeli-Palestinian Dispute: Solutions Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    yes. not a farfetched assumption recognizing that israel, the only nuclear power in the region, with the exponentially strongest military in the region, cites fear of its demise from the Palestinian people, who are armed primarily with rocks
    Sorry, not a far fetched assumption that any Jews left under Palestinian control wouldn’t be at any risk?


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    Re: Israeli-Palestinian Dispute: Solutions Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Israel is not wrong on everything, but they bear a big responsibility to the problems that there are. And you and your cronies denying this.. only makes things worse. It is like saying that the rape victim was dressed slutty and was asking for it...

    The terrorists are responsible for their actions against Israel, however Israel is responsible for the terrorists doing it in the first place because of the Israeli policy towards the occupied territories. Like it or not, the Palestinian intifada did not just come from nothing and you know it. Israeli land grabbing, abuses, and so on have caused the rebellion and defacto the terrorist attacks. It does in no way justify the attacks, but explains them. It is no different to what the Jewish terrorists did to get the state of Israel in the first place... yes the irony.

    There is a saying.. for every action, there is a reaction. For every Israeli injustice towards the Palestinians, there is a reaction by the Palestinians, which in turn means another reaction by Israel... at this point, it has turned into the chicken and the egg.. which came first..

    So the only way to stop this cycle of violence is for both sides to stand down.. stop the Israeli abuses against the Palestinians and the Palestinians stop the reaction to those abuses. Problem is of course... the radicals on both sides wont allow that. The settlers are known for attacks and killing of Palestinians, which then causes a reaction by the Palestinians. Hamas is known for sending rockets over the border, which then means the IDF has to react disproportionately, which then means Hamas has to get revenge for this and the cycle continues.
    We're merely playing pretend here as if the solution to cease the violence is not for the Palestinians to stop engaging in it.
    This isn't the chicken and the egg, there is a conclusive answer here regarding who uses violence and who is on the defense.
    The occupation doesn't predate Palestinian terrorism so your words become quite meaningless, however even if it did the justification for maintaining it is Palestinian terrorism and violence. You can't merely say "Israel should first lift the occupation" without changing anything on the subject of Palestinian violence it's clearly not going to happen and clearly a nation is not going to just allow and expose its citizens to violence without attempting to curb it.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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