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Why Fatah and Hamas have lost the right to speak for the Palestinians

oneworld2 said:
The terrorists of Hamas engage in retail terrorism due to their limitations, the state of Israel engages in wholesale state terrorism due to its capacity.

Only size and capability are different but both are terrorists imo

Didn;t understand the second sentance so didn't respond

Monstrous indeed !!
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Thanks. Now do the US and Al-quaeda.
 
stevecanuck said:
Nope. I'm not saying all the problems stem from Hamas. I'm using their charter to demonstrate that pure, visceral hatred of Jews is the problem.
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The core issue of this is the OW at the core believes that Palestinian hatred of Jews is both legitimate and justified. That informs everything.

So pointing out to him that Hamas hates the Jews as much as one group could ever hate another means nothing to him, because in his mind that is completely understandable and the Jews’ fault to begin with. And anything and everything that happens in real life, no matter how incongruous, will be warped to fit within his perspective on justification and causation.

When dealing with someone like that, there are no real tools other than demonstrating to others where the pathology is coming from.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
Thanks. Now do the US and Al-quaeda.
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Same as, AQ dealt/deals in retail terrorism and the US military has dealt in and still deals in wholesale state terrorism. It's called being consistent CJ and is better than jumping through the hoops all of the time.
 
oneworld2 said:
your post from earlier



That statement excludes so many other problems and serves to exonerate the acts/policies of so many different factions/actors it can only be seen as a statement coming from someone with an anti Muslim agenda. I could go through this bit by bit and thoroughly rubbish your claims but it would be in vain because it is your own extremism that is the problem here imo

That charter came after nearly a century of Zionist Arab antagonisms that saw the Palestinians living as unpeople thoughout the region. Stateless , rights less, abused on a mass scale ( ongoing ) and pawns in so many outside and internal agendas and all because of the advent of Zionism. Is it surprising that it shows a distinct hatred of Jews ? Is that unreasonable ?

I'm giving you a chance of a reasonable discussion here and if you carry on refusing to answer the questions that get thrown up there's no real point in continuing. If you want in then answer them, if you want out because of your fixed anti Muslim stance then say so and stop wasting other peoples time. Sound fair ?
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CJ nailed it in post 227. The "yeah-but-can-you-blame-them" defense makes you an enabler of terrorism. I see no point in going any further with you.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
The core issue of this is the OW at the core believes that Palestinian hatred of Jews is both legitimate and justified. That informs everything.

So pointing out to him that Hamas hates the Jews as much as one group could ever hate another means nothing to him, because in his mind that is completely understandable and the Jews’ fault to begin with. And anything and everything that happens in real life, no matter how incongruous, will be warped to fit within his perspective on justification and causation.

When dealing with someone like that, there are no real tools other than demonstrating to others where the pathology is coming from.
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I believe the Palestinian dislike for and even hatred of, not Jews , but Zionists ( you know the mantra , not all Zionists are Jews and not all Jews are Zionists ) is completely justified and understandable. In the same way I would think the hatred by native Americans towards European colonial settlers would be justified and understandable. Or the Aboriginal Australians haterd of European colonial settlers would be justified and understandable.

The more "pathological " and if I am being completely honest here , psychopathical view is to not understand why that would be the case.
 
stevecanuck said:
CJ nailed it in post 227. The "yeah-but-can-you-blame-them" defense makes you an enabler of terrorism. I see no point in going any further with you.
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If I came to your home with a book and a gun and told you that this was , according to my book , my home and that you had to find another or face the consequences, if you think that that would endear you to me you would have to be crazy ( or psychopathic )

CJs post is utter nonsense even if you are going to use it as an excuse to duck out of the discussion.

Tbh I don't know why you even bother quoting me , it's the same stuff everytime.You make a whole host of ridiculous assertions based on anti Muslim bias and then when challenged on it head for the exit.
 
oneworld2 said:
If I came to your home with a book and a gun and told you that this was , according to my book , my home and that you had to find another or face the consequences, if you think that that would endear you to me you would have to be crazy ( or psychopathic )

CJs post is utter nonsense even if you are going to use it as an excuse to duck out of the discussion.

Tbh I don't know why you even bother quoting me , it's the same stuff everytime.You make a whole host of ridiculous assertions based on anti Muslim bias and then when challenged on it head for the exit.
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If the Muslim invasion 1400 years ago established ownership, then why doesn't a more recent invasion?

Btw, do you live in the Americas?
 
oneworld2 said:
If I came to your home with a book and a gun and told you that this was , according to my book , my home and that you had to find another or face the consequences, if you think that that would endear you to me you would have to be crazy ( or psychopathic )

CJs post is utter nonsense even if you are going to use it as an excuse to duck out of the discussion.

Tbh I don't know why you even bother quoting me , it's the same stuff everytime.You make a whole host of ridiculous assertions based on anti Muslim bias and then when challenged on it head for the exit.
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Historically the Jews inhabited that land 2000 years ago. It was taken from them by Romans, and then Persians, and then Romans, and finally Muslims.

Tell us exactly how far back we go to establish 'rightful' ownership.

Now, about Sitting Bull........
 
oneworld2 said:
Same as, AQ dealt/deals in retail terrorism and the US military has dealt in and still deals in wholesale state terrorism. It's called being consistent CJ and is better than jumping through the hoops all of the time.
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And it is absolutely monstrous. That’s my point.
 
stevecanuck said:
CJ nailed it in post 227. The "yeah-but-can-you-blame-them" defense makes you an enabler of terrorism. I see no point in going any further with you.
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And we see exactly that doubled down on in his response.

They don’t hate Jews they just hate Jews who believe in Jewish self determination. Which it totally “justified” and “understandable”.

Sure they murder Jews in the most horrible ways and celebrate their deaths by dancing in the streets, but that’s totally understandable and justified and yada yada native Americans.

And at its core he’s got more obstruction for a terrorist organization whose fundamental goal is the destruction of Israel, which he also totally understands.

And oblivious to the reality of it all the whole time.
 
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CJ 2.0 said:
And it is absolutely monstrous. That’s my point.
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It's also true so whatever you find it , it is what it is. FWIW I find both monstrous but my guess is that you will only find the actions of one side monstrous precisely because you lack consistency.
 
stevecanuck said:
If the Muslim invasion 1400 years ago established ownership, then why doesn't a more recent invasion?

Btw, do you live in the Americas?
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Because people, sensible people at least , wish to see and work towards an end to the might is right carnage of days gone by. The two world wars should serve as a reminder of why that is a good idea but apparently people seem to have forgotten the lessons already.

If you want to go back to a time without any chance of break on outright wholesale plundering of nations and people maybe you have more with global jihadists than you would ever dare to admit to yourself.

No , I live in the UK , like that has any relevance ?
 
stevecanuck said:
Historically the Jews inhabited that land 2000 years ago. It was taken from them by Romans, and then Persians, and then Romans, and finally Muslims.

Tell us exactly how far back we go to establish 'rightful' ownership.

Now, about Sitting Bull........
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We need only go back to the founding of the UN and it's charter and all of the countries that signed up to conducting their affairs within the framework of international law.

Sitting Bull never signed the UN charter or the 4th GC etc etc AFAIR:roll:
 
oneworld2 said:
Because people, sensible people at least , wish to see and work towards an end to the might is right carnage of days gone by. The two world wars should serve as a reminder of why that is a good idea but apparently people seem to have forgotten the lessons already.

If you want to go back to a time without any chance of break on outright wholesale plundering of nations and people maybe you have more with global jihadists than you would ever dare to admit to yourself.
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None of that made any sense.

No , I live in the UK , like that has any relevance ?
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The Americas were stolen. Every inch of them. I am living on stolen land. What do I do about that? I can't "go back to where I came from" because I was born here. Ownership has NEVER been static. We have to deal with reality, and Israel is as real as every country in the Americas. If its neighbors were to acknowledge that, things would start to improve for EVERYBODY immediately.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
And we see exactly that doubled down on in his response.
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Hogwash

They don’t hate Jews they just hate Jews who believe in Jewish self determination. Which it totally “justified” and “understandable”.
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Nope, they hate Jews whose self determination is at the expence of their own self determination and Jews that have committed crimes against them and continue to commit crimes against them whilst violating all of their rights which IS toatlly understandable and justified
Sure they murder Jews in the most horrible ways and celebrate their deaths by dancing in the streets, but that’s totally understandable and justified and yada yada native Americans.
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And some Jews murder them in the most horrible ways and also most cowardly ways like firing DIME weapons into urban centres whilst geing out of range themselves. Or flying F16 jets to drop bombs into town centres etc etc. The violence is a two way street

And at its core he’s got more obstruction for a terrorist organization whose fundamental goal is the destruction of Israel, which he also totally understands.
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The IDF is the "terrorist organisatiion" that is responsible for the state terrorism/war crimes carried out by the state of Israel against the Palestinians which you fully understand. The only difference between us is that I recognize that both sides engage in it but you can only manage one , the Arab one shock horror, who knew ?
And oblivious to the reality of it all the whole time.
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Nope , just a whole lot more objective about it than yourself and thus prepared to acknowledge and denounce the crimes committed by both sides.
 
stevecanuck said:
None of that made any sense.
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You don't understand that the decent people of the world see the old " might is right " justification for war and plunderering of people with all of the atrocities that go with that as abhorrent ? That they don't support it and think that the laws states have signed up to should be used to try to stop the outdated concepts that defined the age of empire/colonial rule ?

Wow.


The Americas were stolen. Every inch of them. I am living on stolen land. What do I do about that? I can't "go back to where I came from" because I was born here. Ownership has NEVER been static. We have to deal with reality, and Israel is as real as every country in the Americas. If its neighbors were to acknowledge that, things would start to improve for EVERYBODY immediately.
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Correct wrt the Americas, so you appear to be against land acquisition through warfare in the above but then support it when it is Jews taking land off Arabs and denying them their right to self determination.

The age you speak of is precisely why decent people are opposed to might being right and work to stop what was accepted in the age of empires and colonial rule. The time you are referring to btw. And yet here you are in the modern age supporting settler colonialism that is illegal under international law. Have you any idea how ridiculous a position that is to hold ?
 
stevecanuck said:
This in a nutshell is how you represent Israel, and you always will. Bye now.
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Nope , that's how Israel represents itself and worse still that reflects badly on world Jewry imo , many of whom are against it's actions/policies themselves but are wrongly associated with the crimes it commits.

Israel isn't on it's own though, there are also many other state terrorists committing barbarous acts of violence

BTW..... "And yet here you are in the modern age supporting settler colonialism that is illegal under international law. Have you any idea how ridiculous a position that is to hold ? ".... was just too difficult for you to respond to ?
 
oneworld2 said:
Nope , that's how Israel represents itself and worse still that reflects badly on world Jewry imo , many of whom are against it's actions/policies themselves but are wrongly associated with the crimes it commits.

Israel isn't on it's own though, there are also many other state terrorists committing barbarous acts of violence

BTW..... "And yet here you are in the modern age supporting settler colonialism that is illegal under international law. Have you any idea how ridiculous a position that is to hold ? ".... was just too difficult for you to respond to ?
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Reflects badly on world jewry?.... care to rephrase that one? Mayhaps a freudian slip?
 
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bomberfox said:
Reflects badly on world jewry?.... care to rephrase that one? Mayhaps a freudian slip?
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No problem, what Israel does wrt crimes/terrorism/HRs abuses , atrocities reflects badly on the entire Jewish population of the world . It is the reason why more and more US progressive Jews are trying to distance themselves from the gross actions committed by the Jewish state in their name. If some political movement in Latin America took power somewhere and announced they represented the Catholic people of the world, a nation state of Catholicism their actions would be used to judge Catholics everywhere , rightly or wrongly that's how these things play out.
 
oneworld2 said:
No problem, what Israel does wrt crimes/terrorism/HRs abuses , atrocities reflects badly on the entire Jewish population of the world . It is the reason why more and more US progressive Jews are trying to distance themselves from the gross actions committed by the Jewish state in their name. If some political movement in Latin America took power somewhere and announced they represented the Catholic people of the world, a nation state of Catholicism their actions would be used to judge Catholics everywhere , rightly or wrongly that's how these things play out.
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No no. World jewry doesnt exist, that is specifically a nazi term.
 
bomberfox said:
No no. World jewry doesnt exist, that is specifically a nazi term.
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I don't accept that it is and used the term to refer to the global Jewish population. If you want to think I am typing this in a SS uniform that's your choice
 
oneworld2 said:
I don't accept that it is and used the term to refer to the global Jewish population. If you want to think I am typing this in a SS uniform that's your choice
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Hey if ya want to double down not my problem but thats what it is.
 
bomberfox said:
Hey if ya want to double down not my problem but thats what it is.
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So to you there is no such thing as a world Jewish population and/or to refer to one as world Jewry makes you a Nazi ?

As I said, you can think or believe what you want to but if what you are inferring is true you will have thousands of posts of mine here to refer to with which to make the case or not.
 
oneworld2 said:
I don't see anyone here advocating an arms embargo on the state terrorist on the Israeli side.

You seem to think that a virtually defenceless people should be slaughtered and abused , year in year out , by the state terrorists of a vastly superior hitech military machine that is replenished and updated every year so as to be able to inflict more and more death and destruction on that defencless and trapped population around half of which are kids.

So don't have the temerity to try to lecture me on who should and who shouldn't be armed as though you have some kind of moral argument backing you up because you haven't.
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You just proved my point :).
As I said no one else here came anywhere close to your radical view about arming terror organization.
 
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