A different two-state solution

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict might be resolved by the creation of two states: Israel, incorporating the Golan Heights and the West Bank, and a separate Palestinian Gaza.

Palestinians within the West Bank would become full citizens of Israel. Minus Gaza, Jews would still be a majority in the enlarged nation. However, to avoid the “right of return” being used as a demographic weapon, new immigrants to Israel would have to be divided equally between Jews and Palestinians, perhaps with a limit of 5,000 each per year. The admission of other foreign workers would be discouraged or banned to enable Palestinians to more fully integrate into the Israeli economy. The walls and checkpoints in the West Bank would be gradually dismantled.

Gaza would be occupied, governed and demilitarized by forces and administrators from the United Nations and/or a moderate Arab nation such as Jordan for a period of ten years, after which the Gaza residents would be granted full, independent statehood.

I wish both sides would forgive the past and start out with a clean slate. There'd be one Israel with Palestinians and Jews.

But where there's that much hatred, I guess two countries is the best we can do.

Maybe with time, a hundred years or so.

RobertU said:

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict might be resolved by the creation of two states: Israel, incorporating the Golan Heights and the West Bank, and a separate Palestinian Gaza.

Palestinians within the West Bank would become full citizens of Israel. Minus Gaza, Jews would still be a majority in the enlarged nation. However, to avoid the “right of return” being used as a demographic weapon, new immigrants to Israel would have to be divided equally between Jews and Palestinians, perhaps with a limit of 5,000 each per year. The admission of other foreign workers would be discouraged or banned to enable Palestinians to more fully integrate into the Israeli economy. The walls and checkpoints in the West Bank would be gradually dismantled.

Gaza would be occupied, governed and demilitarized by forces and administrators from the United Nations and/or a moderate Arab nation such as Jordan for a period of ten years, after which the Gaza residents would be granted full, independent statehood.

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I don't see it happening without some pretty big cultural and political shifts. Israel has always been a state for Jews first. Palestinians in the west bank would not accept Israeli citizenship or sovereignty.

Israel would have no coastline, no ports, no territorial waters. There's not a county in the world that would agree to become landlocked.

RobertU said:

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict might be resolved by the creation of two states: Israel, incorporating the Golan Heights and the West Bank, and a separate Palestinian Gaza.

Palestinians within the West Bank would become full citizens of Israel. Minus Gaza, Jews would still be a majority in the enlarged nation. However, to avoid the “right of return” being used as a demographic weapon, new immigrants to Israel would have to be divided equally between Jews and Palestinians, perhaps with a limit of 5,000 each per year. The admission of other foreign workers would be discouraged or banned to enable Palestinians to more fully integrate into the Israeli economy. The walls and checkpoints in the West Bank would be gradually dismantled.

Gaza would be occupied, governed and demilitarized by forces and administrators from the United Nations and/or a moderate Arab nation such as Jordan for a period of ten years, after which the Gaza residents would be granted full, independent statehood.

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Hmm. I don't see it that way. I don't believe it would work now.

Aside from the fact a division has already been tried? IMO too many years of strife, too many harms caused to both sides, not enough land to handle the population growth all combine to make this an unfeasible option.

IMO it's come to an either/or.

Either the Israelis expel the entire Palestinian population (who can then legally claim refugee status per UN rules), or the Israelis give up on the idea of Israel entirely.

IMO? Either way the Jews will continue to have a troubled existence in the Middle East.

As I've pointed out elsewhere, Islam is not the "Religion of Peace." It is the "Religion of Submission."

It remains the only major religion that still adheres to conversion by the sword.

IMO the surrounding states would only allow the existence of Israel if it was controlled by an Islamic government with the Jews submissive to Islamic law.

IMO if that ever came to pass, then the two divisions, Sunni and Shiite would continue the struggle for dominance while also seeking to spread Islam far and wide.

I feel bad for the Palestinians, and if they could cooperate to live under a Jewish government as was once hoped for by Jews who "returned" after WW II, well and good.

But as I said, IMO it is much too late for that. Too much blood has been spilled, and both groups are now so entrenched I don't think any compromise is capable at this time.

ecofarm said:

Israel would have no coastline, no ports, no territorial waters. There's not a county in the world that would agree to become landlocked.

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Ethiopia did as did South Sudan.

Fledermaus said:

Ethiopia did as did South Sudan.

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South Sudan split from North Sudan in civil war, the North being terrorist controlled. To separate oneself from terrorists in absolute desperation is not "a two state solution". That's a terrorist win. Now that Bashir is going to the Hague, we'll see what happens.

Who decided Ethiopia's demarcation and when?

ecofarm said:

Israel would have no coastline, no ports, no territorial waters. There's not a county in the world that would agree to become landlocked.

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What are you talking about? My proposal does nothing to encroach on Israel's coastline. Maybe you are confused. My proposal for the new Israel includes the existing Israel plus the Golan Heights and the West Bank.

RobertU said:

What are you talking about? My proposal does nothing to encroach on Israel's coastline. Maybe you are confused. My proposal for the new Israel includes the existing Israel plus the Golan Heights and the West Bank.

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Gaza.

ecofarm said:

Gaza.

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Israel has plenty of coastline apart from the Gaza Strip. Have you even looked at a map?

RobertU said:

Israel has plenty of coastline apart from the Gaza Strip. Have you even looked at a map?

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My mistake. You're land-locking Palestine unless it has control of Gaza.

ecofarm said:

My mistake. You're land-locking Palestine unless it has control of Gaza.

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Again, you seem to misunderstand my thread. I would accept Israel's annexation of the West Bank. West Bank Palestinians would become citizens of Israel. The only Palestinian state would be Gaza.

RobertU said:

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict might be resolved by the creation of two states: Israel, incorporating the Golan Heights and the West Bank, and a separate Palestinian Gaza.

Palestinians within the West Bank would become full citizens of Israel. Minus Gaza, Jews would still be a majority in the enlarged nation. However, to avoid the “right of return” being used as a demographic weapon, new immigrants to Israel would have to be divided equally between Jews and Palestinians, perhaps with a limit of 5,000 each per year. The admission of other foreign workers would be discouraged or banned to enable Palestinians to more fully integrate into the Israeli economy. The walls and checkpoints in the West Bank would be gradually dismantled.

Gaza would be occupied, governed and demilitarized by forces and administrators from the United Nations and/or a moderate Arab nation such as Jordan for a period of ten years, after which the Gaza residents would be granted full, independent statehood.

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Caroline Glick proposed basically the same thing from the right wing of the Israeli political spectrum, other than the nonsense about Israeli Jews giving up sovereignty and Israel shutting its doors to Jews to avoid hurting Arab sensibilities.

Her thesis is basically that the numbers in the Palestinian census are fraudulent and there are not nearly as many Palestinians in the WB as they say there are, such that Israel can annex the territory, give citizenship rights to all of the Arabs there, and still have a sizeable Jewish majority allowing Israel to continue to fulfil its foundational purpose of being a Jewish and democratic state and the only state in which Jews exercise sovereignty as a people.

Not sure if you would have less sympathy for her formulation, even though it is much the same and more democratic, but maybe take a read through it? It’s called “The Israeli Solution: A One-state Plan for Peace in the Middle East”.

RobertU said:

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict might be resolved by the creation of two states: Israel, incorporating the Golan Heights and the West Bank, and a separate Palestinian Gaza.

Palestinians within the West Bank would become full citizens of Israel. Minus Gaza, Jews would still be a majority in the enlarged nation. However, to avoid the “right of return” being used as a demographic weapon, new immigrants to Israel would have to be divided equally between Jews and Palestinians, perhaps with a limit of 5,000 each per year. The admission of other foreign workers would be discouraged or banned to enable Palestinians to more fully integrate into the Israeli economy. The walls and checkpoints in the West Bank would be gradually dismantled.

Gaza would be occupied, governed and demilitarized by forces and administrators from the United Nations and/or a moderate Arab nation such as Jordan for a period of ten years, after which the Gaza residents would be granted full, independent statehood.

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Nice that you give away part of Syria without any hint that you have even considered what THEY might think of it.

Likewise you have given away the entire WB presumeably with the same scant consideration to what the Palestinians living there might think of it.

You have also taken away the tiny bit of self rule the long suffering people of Gaza have had since the Israeli disengagement, also presumeably without any consideration about how they might feel being ruled by the UN. This leading to a "state" for Palestinains that only has land borders with hostile states

You also appear to not understand either the general wishes of the Israeli govts from the onset of the Israeli total occupation and control of the Palestinians since 1967. They don't want the mass of Arabs living in the WB, they wnt the most valuable parts FREE from Arabs. You need only look at the annexation wall to KNOW what they want

In short what you have done is to ignore ALL of the rights ( and opinions ) of the Arabs so as to endorse illegal Isreali expansionism without realizing that Israel only wants the valuable parts of the WB so it can dump the Palestinians on what's left.( thus ignoring this Israeli long standing aim )

The plan you put forward , I guarantee you , will enjoy no support at the UN because there is already a two state solution on the table which is much fairer and doesn't reward flagrant violations of international law. This plan already enjoys massive international support, including all of the Arab states themselves , and is founded on international law using conventions Israel has already agreed to be bound by.

Good luck pushing for this nonsense plan.

As an incentive for Hamas leaders in Gaza to cooperate, many would be granted non-security related administrative posts under the supervision of the occupying forces. In addition, Israel would hold in trust an area of land extending one kilometer into Israel along the entire Israel-Gaza border, which would be ceded to Gaza if the 10-year transition is completed peacefully.

My proposal recognizes “facts on the ground” in terms of Israeli settlements, eliminates the apartheid-like treatment of Palestinians and addresses Israeli concerns about Hamas threats from Gaza.

Syria is largely a failed state led by a war criminal. It brings no moral weight to the table.

RobertU said:

As an incentive for Hamas leaders in Gaza to cooperate, many would be granted non-security related administrative posts under the supervision of the occupying forces. In addition, Israel would hold in trust an area of land extending one kilometer into Israel along the entire Israel-Gaza border, which would be ceded to Gaza if the 10-year transition is completed peacefully.

My proposal recognizes “facts on the ground” in terms of Israeli settlements, eliminates the apartheid-like treatment of Palestinians and addresses Israeli concerns about Hamas threats from Gaza.

Syria is largely a failed state led by a war criminal. It brings no moral weight to the table.

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If people want " leaders in Gaza to cooperate " all's they have to do is push for what the Israelis fear most which is a united Palestinian National Council made up of all factions of the Palestinian people. This can be acheived just by election with no need for deference to the UN or anyone else.

Israelis holding land in trust ? Your view of Arabs is a little disturbing imo and can be seen throughout this wholly one sided Arab opinion free pronouncement.

So you think the best way to stop the ill treatment of WB Palestinians is to deny them their legal rights and force them into being members of a state that has oppressed them for nearly 53 years with the additional humiliation of it being called a nation state of their oppressors ? Seriously, is that the best you can come up with ?

Israel can largely negate the threat from Gaza in an instant by agreing to a long term truce with Hamas and the other factions in return for lifting the seige and thus creating a better climate altogether for a united PNC election with a view to ending the conflict in a just way using international law in line with the overwhelming international support that option enjoys.

Your dismissal of the illegal Israeli acquisition of sovereign Syrian territory fits in with the rest of your proposals that basically give everything to Israel and offers scraps to the Arabs without even any pretence of caring for what their actual opinions are.

BTW the irony of someone from the USA disqualifying other nations from any imput into the giving away of their territory on the grounds that their leader is a " war criminal " isn't lost on me at least. He seemed okay to the US when they were sending people they had as prisoners there to be tortured and the impact of the US and it's allies in ensuring that Syria has been destroyed over the last few years also makes your final comment worthy of derision imo.

Given the prospect of the Gaza Strip no longer being governed by Hamas, I think my proposal is worth a second look.

RobertU said:

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict might be resolved by the creation of two states: Israel, incorporating the Golan Heights and the West Bank, and a separate Palestinian Gaza.

Palestinians within the West Bank would become full citizens of Israel. Minus Gaza, Jews would still be a majority in the enlarged nation. However, to avoid the “right of return” being used as a demographic weapon, new immigrants to Israel would have to be divided equally between Jews and Palestinians, perhaps with a limit of 5,000 each per year. The admission of other foreign workers would be discouraged or banned to enable Palestinians to more fully integrate into the Israeli economy. The walls and checkpoints in the West Bank would be gradually dismantled.

Gaza would be occupied, governed and demilitarized by forces and administrators from the United Nations and/or a moderate Arab nation such as Jordan for a period of ten years, after which the Gaza residents would be granted full, independent statehood.

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is that possible now?