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Abbas: I know that its not a Jewish state

NO1 said:
Abbas: Palestinians will cut all ties with Israel, US - The Jerusalem Post

Since 1948 the Arabs refuse to accept the Jewish state, that's the core of the conflict.
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This particular forum reminds me of when I got got kicked out of the Topix website forum for criticizing Yasser Arafat for "never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity".
Speculating on what the Palestinians are going to do relative to seeking peace with Israel is a fool's errand.
Their entire existence is based on opposing Israel in any form it can imagine.
What a sorry existence for those young people growing up in Gaza or on the West Bank.
 
jaypatriot said:
This particular forum reminds me of when I got got kicked out of the Topix website forum for criticizing Yasser Arafat for "never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity".
Speculating on what the Palestinians are going to do relative to seeking peace with Israel is a fool's errand.
Their entire existence is based on opposing Israel in any form it can imagine.
What a sorry existence for those young people growing up in Gaza or on the West Bank.
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A shame.
They are only being fueled (and fooled) by the never ending indoctrination machine.
Instead of seeking for a better future for themselves even now nearly 72 years after Israel came to be they still prefer fantasizing about its destruction.
 
Apocalypse said:
You're being embarrassing with this childish attempt to save some grace. CJ provides arguments that easily dismantle your illogical nonsense and this seems to be the best you can offer.
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Nothing should be more embarrassing than falling flat on your face and pretending you meant to do it. Keep on doing it, though. It's entertaining.
 
digitusmedius said:
Nothing should be more embarrassing than falling flat on your face and pretending you meant to do it. Keep on doing it, though. It's entertaining.
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Talk about "I know you are but what am I".

You're all about the irony. Almost as hysterical as it is pathetic.
 
Apocalypse said:
A shame.
They are only being fueled (and fooled) by the never ending indoctrination machine.
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Sez another indoctrination machine. This is what I meant about falling on your face.
 
digitusmedius said:
Christians still have a 400 year lead.
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But the Muslims still have an overwhelming lead in Murder... 270 million is a conservative number

and where none of the BS is documented in Christian text,
It is all over Islamic text.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
Oh so it’s ok because you don’t believe it should be called ethnic cleansing.

Even though it is the forcible removal of a population from a territory in order to allow settlement of a different population.

That’s fresh.
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Is that really the best reply you can muster to the points and suggestions in that post ? Seriously ?

What was the removal of the illegal Jewish settlers from Gaza in 2005 called/referred to ?

An "ethnic cleansing" involves the forced removal of one ethnic group by another ethnic group .

You have supported that on two occasions and still support their ongoing displacement to this very day. Fact

The removal of illegal settlers from a territory by their own government isn't an ethnic cleansing, it's actually that government righting its own wrong and if you have an issue with it you can ONLY blame the successive Israeli governments responsible for that situation.

As I said in the last post when it is an authentic ethnic cleansing you support it but when it is the removal of people by their own government illegally residing outside of their own territory you object.

I also said earlier that it is this gross misrepresentations by pro Israeli folk that is an odious side show of this conflict and your misrepresentation of a disengagement as an ethnic cleansing is just yet another example

I also gave the option that they be allowed to stay and renounce their Israeli citizenship for a Palestinian one providing they agree to live in peace with their Palestinian neighbours. If they don't want that they can leave for Israeli territory were they would not be living illegally. But under no circumstances should

A The acquisition of territory by warfare be supported. At least if people want to live in a more just and peaceful world

B The future Palestinian state be constructed as a dead letter to placate the crimes committed by the state of Israel
 
NO1 said:
Abbas is against it because he knows that recognize Israel as Jewish state going to effect his demend to "the right to return", he want to change the nature of israel as Jewish state. Abbas don't care about the rights of the Israeli Arabs, he just want to ensure their national rights for the future so they can challenge Israel nature (after the peace agreement) as Jewish state. In order to end this conflict, it's time the palestinians will accept the idea that Jewish state and stop trying to undermine and fight it, they should realize there won't be any return of plastinians to Israel, they can stop dreaming about Haifa and Acre. But of course it ain't going to happen, so why would Israel agree to palestinian country when the palestinians can't do the same?
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So Palestinians who still have the legal ownership documents from homes rheir were forced out of should not be able to have their property returned to them?
 
NO1 said:
Abbas is against it because he knows that recognize Israel as Jewish state going to effect his demend to "the right to return", he want to change the nature of israel as Jewish state. Abbas don't care about the rights of the Israeli Arabs, he just want to ensure their national rights for the future so they can challenge Israel nature (after the peace agreement) as Jewish state. In order to end this conflict, it's time the palestinians will accept the idea that Jewish state and stop trying to undermine and fight it, they should realize there won't be any return of plastinians to Israel, they can stop dreaming about Haifa and Acre. But of course it ain't going to happen, so why would Israel agree to palestinian country when the palestinians can't do the same?
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Abbas and the PA have not got a history of demanding the right of return for the millions strong Palestinian diaspora in negotiations.I think the last talks, those that allegedly came closest at Taba , mentioned the return of a few thousand because there is an option that also incudes a financial compensation be made. Most times it's been left in the air as a " we will talk about that later " side show in negotiations

Imo it is a demand that is based on stalling so as to change the facts of the ground in Israels favour.
 
oneworld2 said:
Is that really the best reply you can muster to the points and suggestions in that post ? Seriously ?

What was the removal of the illegal Jewish settlers from Gaza in 2005 called/referred to ?

An "ethnic cleansing" involves the forced removal of one ethnic group by another ethnic group .

You have supported that on two occasions and still support their ongoing displacement to this very day. Fact

The removal of illegal settlers from a territory by their own government isn't an ethnic cleansing, it's actually that government righting its own wrong and if you have an issue with it you can ONLY blame the successive Israeli governments responsible for that situation.

As I said in the last post when it is an authentic ethnic cleansing you support it but when it is the removal of people by their own government illegally residing outside of their own territory you object.

I also said earlier that it is this gross misrepresentations by pro Israeli folk that is an odious side show of this conflict and your misrepresentation of a disengagement as an ethnic cleansing is just yet another example

I also gave the option that they be allowed to stay and renounce their Israeli citizenship for a Palestinian one providing they agree to live in peace with their Palestinian neighbours. If they don't want that they can leave for Israeli territory were they would not be living illegally. But under no circumstances should

A The acquisition of territory by warfare be supported. At least if people want to live in a more just and peaceful world

B The future Palestinian state be constructed as a dead letter to placate the crimes committed by the state of Israel
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Yes, the forced removal of the Jews to replace them with Arab Palestinians. Ethnic cleansing.

I'm always confused where people put things out there that they think makes their point but actually makes precisely the opposite point. Nicely done.

And no, getting someone of the same ethnic group to do the cleansing on behalf of the other group doesn't make it any better. It just makes all parties complicit.
 
Aristaeus said:
So Palestinians who still have the legal ownership documents from homes rheir were forced out of should not be able to have their property returned to them?
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Nope.
 
oneworld2 said:
Abbas and the PA have not got a history of demanding the right of return for the millions strong Palestinian diaspora in negotiations.I think the last talks, those that allegedly came closest at Taba , mentioned the return of a few thousand because there is an option that also incudes a financial compensation be made. Most times it's been left in the air as a " we will talk about that later " side show in negotiations

Imo it is a demand that is based on stalling so as to change the facts of the ground in Israels favour.
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So let him declare that publicly and acknowledge that Israel is a state in which Jews have sovereign rights.

A costless concession where he wouldn't even be giving up the "right of return".

For normal people without ulterior motives, it takes very little benefit to be willing to give up things that cost them nothing.

And your IMO is wrong and demonstrates your fundamental misunderstanding of the Jews' concerns or Palestinian objectives. They understand that the Palestinians in 1949, like the Palestinians in 1967, 1987, 2000 and 2020, were not prepared to accept an end of conflict that involves abandoning their claims on Israel. So to at least start showing that they have changed their objectives and are now actually interested in peace, and therefore the Israelis would be justified in taking risks (which blew up spectacularly in the Palestinians' terror war), we need to see the Palestinians renounce their claims on Israel, which includes giving up on the BS right of return and recognizing Jewish sovereign claims over Israel.

The fact the Palestinians refuse to bend on this shows that I'm right and you're wrong, unless the Palestinians are blindingly irrational and frankly incapable of rational thought. Which I doubt is your position.
 
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CJ 2.0 said:
Yes, the forced removal of the Jews to replace them with Arab Palestinians. Ethnic cleansing.

I'm always confused where people put things out there that they think makes their point but actually makes precisely the opposite point. Nicely done.

And no, getting someone of the same ethnic group to do the cleansing on behalf of the other group doesn't make it any better. It just makes all parties complicit.
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You keep doing the same dance but don't move off the spot.

Why wasn't the disengagement from Gaza and the subsequent removal of illegal Jewish settlers considered to be an ethnic cleansing ?

People who live illegally in the territory of another state, protected by an occupying army but retaining the civilian status of their own state shouldn't be considered to be the same as people residing legally in their own state who are forced from that territory by the outside forces of another state wishing to remove them so as to use the space for its own people

It is this sort of perversion of the concept of ethnic cleansing that shows how disgusting many of the Israeli misrepresentations/underminings of solid HRs laws/inernational norms really are. Consider the sheer arrogance of the above. Recall that you have supported two authentic ethnic cleansings and still demand those people not be allowed to return just because they are Arabs. But with Jews you ignore their illegal status and their impact on the Palestinian state in as breathtaking an example of double standards as it is possible to witness.

Then we get to the other alternative that you have completely ignored

They could renounce their Israeli citizenship agree to live in peace with their neighbours and opt to become Palestinian citizens living in the Palestinian state. You won't say but it's obvious the thought makes you balk because it is yet another double standard based on ethnicity.

Ethnic cleansing are fine if it's Arabs being cleansed but Jews , heaven forbid.

Arab citizens of Israel can be used as a banner for the sanctitiy of the Jewish state but Jews being forced into returning to their own state or renouncing it to live in the Palestinian one , heaven forbid, that's something to be foisted on the Arabs only, not Jews

There is no confusion here in my view just a very obvious difference between two people , one who thinks Arabs are inferior to Jews and one who applies the same standards to both peoples.

Two direct questions you have simply tried to avoid answering.

If what you say is true , how come nobody refers to the disengagement from Gaza and the removal of illegal Jewisg settlers living there an ethnic cleansing ?

Why can't the illegal settlers left in the West Bank and Golan be given the option to either move to their own state or stay put and become citizens of the state whose land they illegal live in ?
 
CJ 2.0 said:
So let him declare that publicly and acknowledge that Israel is a state in which Jews have sovereign rights.

A costless concession where he wouldn't even be giving up the "right of return".

For normal people without ulterior motives, it takes very little benefit to be willing to give up things that cost them nothing.

And your IMO is wrong and demonstrates your fundamental misunderstanding of the Jews' concerns or Palestinian objectives. They understand that the Palestinians in 1949, like the Palestinians in 1967, 1987, 2000 and 2020, were not prepared to accept an end of conflict that involves abandoning their claims on Israel. So to at least start showing that they have changed their objectives and are now actually interested in peace, and therefore the Israelis would be justified in taking risks (which blew up spectacularly in the Palestinians' terror war), we need to see the Palestinians renounce their claims on Israel, which includes giving up on the BS right of return and recognizing Jewish sovereign claims over Israel.

The fact the Palestinians refuse to bend on this shows that I'm right and you're wrong, unless the Palestinians are blindingly irrational and frankly incapable of rational thought. Which I doubt is your position.
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As to your first point , the reognition of Israel itself IS the recognition that Jews have sovereign rights in the country. Asking them to specifically state that it is the sovereign state of the Jewish people is thus an unnecessary demand. It is also a request for the forced and authentic ethnic cleansing of Palestinians be deemed legitimate. An acknowledgement that it was somehow legitimate. Nobody should be forced to consider their own dispossession and displacement from their homelands at the hands of more powerful forces to be a legitimate event

What you want to see happen is for the Palestinians be forced to give up their rights so as to get a place at the negotiating table, so let's break it down a little more

The " BS right of return " is their legitimate right it's not " BS ". Israels entry into the UN itself was dependent on it. People have the right to leave and return to their country of origin at anytime. In fact the real " BS right of return " is the Jewish one which gives people the right to return to a place they might never have had any physical connection to and are claiming it off of the back of a ancient document where people live into their double hundreds etc etc

They have the right to East Jerusalem as their capital because it was occupied in 1967 and thus qualifies as OPT under res UNSC 242

They have a right to authentic self determination and not whatever self determination Israel and/or its allies decide they can have

For a just resolution both sides should be forced by outside actors into good faith negotiations based on international law and nobody should be forced to give up their rights as a precondition to engage in the process
 
CJ 2.0 said:
So to at least start showing that they have changed their objectives and are now actually interested in peace, and therefore the Israelis would be justified in taking risks (which blew up spectacularly in the Palestinians' terror war), ...............
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The " palestinan terror war"................. was a response the IDF terrorist war that preceded it by months as was set out in reply 105 in this thread and has been put to you on numerous occasions in numerous threads . Your willingness to offer ,time after time after time , without ever having responded to the above charge made against the state terrorism of Israel that stands before it in chronological order is glaringly obvious and in light of your complete refusal to even mention it I will rmind you of it everytime you play that particular propaganda card
 
Aristaeus said:
So Palestinians who still have the legal ownership documents from homes rheir were forced out of should not be able to have their property returned to them?
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I didn't hear you say a word about the 850.000 Jews who were explled from Arab countries in the 50's, what about their property?
Many of those 750.000 Arabs who ran in 48' did this due to their Arab leaders orders, while all the Jews from Arab countries were expelled, and still not a word from you...
 
oneworld2 said:
Abbas and the PA have not got a history of demanding the right of return for the millions strong Palestinian diaspora in negotiations.I think the last talks, those that allegedly came closest at Taba , mentioned the return of a few thousand because there is an option that also incudes a financial compensation be made. Most times it's been left in the air as a " we will talk about that later " side show in negotiations
Imo it is a demand that is based on stalling so as to change the facts of the ground in Israels favour.
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Abbas and the PA have got a history of rejectionism, they refused to every peace deal, and Abbas never gave up on nothing, it is his way or no way. He never gave up the false right to return, and he will never do that. Trump plan is a step in the right direction, when Abbas realize that his rejectionism will cost him, we will see a different Abbas. I just heard him poorly trying to revive Olmert plan, the same plan he rejected. Also, now Abbas want to talk, what happened to his pre conditions to even sit and talk?

Imo those who reject this demend don't want to end the conflict.
 
NO1 said:
Abbas and the PA have got a history of rejectionism, they refused to every peace deal, and Abbas never gave up on nothing, it is his way or no way. He never gave up the false right to return, and he will never do that. Trump plan is a step in the right direction, when Abbas realize that his rejectionism will cost him, we will see a different Abbas. I just heard him poorly trying to revive Olmert plan, the same plan he rejected. Also, now Abbas want to talk, what happened to his pre conditions to even sit and talk?

Imo those who reject this demend don't want to end the conflict.
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If I keep offering you a poor deal knowing you will reject it and you keep rejecting it I would be as guilty of scuppering a deal as you are.

There are rejectionists on both sides and I think you know this to be true yourself

Politicians being politicians none more obvious then Olmerts offer. The devil is always in the detail. Percentages don't tell the proper tale. I can offer you 80% of Algeria and it would be completely made up of desert
 
NO1 said:
I didn't hear you say a word about the 850.000 Jews who were explled from Arab countries in the 50's, what about their property?
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They should have the right to return or be compensated imo

Many of those 750.000 Arabs who ran in 48' did this due to their Arab leaders orders, while all the Jews from Arab countries were expelled, and still not a word from you...
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The"they left because of Arab orders" isn't a credible argument anymore. It has been completely debunked and is just a legacy of the Israeli state propaganda that has endured well past its sell by date.

IT is accepted that many fled and many were forced to leave
 
oneworld2 said:
Moves have already been made to make it so with Arabic being relegated to a second class language.

Etho nationalism is vile imo and having to explain why to Jewish people seems like I entered the "twilight zone" somewhere along the way here
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Nations cannot have national languages?

150+ nations have a national language in their constitution with other nations having de facto or de jure National languages...

Why is it evil when Israel does it?
 
NO1 said:
I didn't hear you say a word about the 850.000 Jews who were explled from Arab countries in the 50's, what about their property?
Many of those 750.000 Arabs who ran in 48' did this due to their Arab leaders orders, while all the Jews from Arab countries were expelled, and still not a word from you...
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Of course Israelis who legally own property should be able to return and rightfully claim their property, as should Arabs who expelled by Israelis. Ethnic cleansing is wrong regardless of who does it and to whom.
 
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