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Hamas being Hamas - Corruption edition

NO1 said:
Don't be naive now, it's not the first time you doing this and of course it won't be the last, your radical stance on Hamas is known.
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That telling the truth about things is a " radical stance " in your opinion is more revealing of you tham me , so thanks for the unintended gift

I have criticized Hamas on many occasions and call their crimes out as crimes , as I have throughout this thread by calling the acts described in the OP horrific and/or dispicable etc etc.............. it will be a cold day in Hell imo before we see anything remotely like that level of objectivity entering into your commentary.
 
oneworld2 said:
Semantics from another person who decided to study the Koran in the wake of 9/11 with all of the objectivity that will engender.

I said " Religion isn't the only mechanism available for elites of whatever stripe to convince people to kill for them/their benefit." and I stand by it.

You could have added that Christians have a history soaked in blood claiming they had God on their side/were completing Gods work. That's not such a great crowd puller these days so we see the " humanitarian intervention " or the war for " democracy promotion " both of which are made to confirm to us the greatness of are caring leaders.

We don't have to ask people to kill for God anymore because are nations are so morally virtuous so as to be Gods in and of themselves in essence with our brave fighters projecting that devine moral compass to all corners of a barbaric world................but hey, it's the Muslims for you. It can only be the Muslims because you have , imo , submitted to the religion of state , your own state and states like it.

Just as Islam asks Muslims to submit to it, the state propaganda system that targets you asked you to submit to it and you dutifully obeyed that order imo
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You have a nice day.
 
stevecanuck said:
I'm still plowing through the Qur'an and summarizing it in chronological order. When you combine historical context with the Qur'an, it paints a much clearer picture.

So, once I'm done with that (I have a few months to go probably), then I'll be able to show you in no uncertain terms how Islam became a warrior religion. The thought of going through the sunna as well is daunting, but I do intend to incorporate that as well.
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When you have studied what and how religion played/plays its part in wars involving Muslims maybe you could then , in the name of objectivity , study how the West has used religion and a whole host of other mechanisms to prosecute wars that are supported by large parts of the populations in their country. I gave you some pointers in the last post I made to your own
 
Yasureoktoo said:
Actually you can add anything you want, but if we keep it real and honest there are only a few ways.

Sure, Christians have a bloody past, however the crimes laid at their door are not from the orders written in the religion.
They come from people in charge.

In Islam, however, the orders are written into the religion.
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There are many ways and I have no issues with " keeping it real "

I gave you two already, are you claiming they are somehow not legitimate ?
 
oneworld2 said:
When you have studied what and how religion played/plays its part in wars involving Muslims maybe you could then , in the name of objectivity , study how the West has used religion and a whole host of other mechanisms to prosecute wars that are supported by large parts of the populations in their country. I gave you some pointers in the last post I made to your own
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This has been pointed out to you, but somehow you can't seem to understand it.

If the west uses religion, they probably use Christianity, and have to bend the religion to claim it supports wars and other BS.
As I said before, people in charge bending the religion to suit their means,
making claims that simply are not in the religion.

In Islam however, the orders are written very plainly in the religious texts themselves.
Nobody has to make up anything.
 
oneworld2 said:
There are many ways and I have no issues with " keeping it real "

I gave you two already, are you claiming they are somehow not legitimate ?
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Gave me two what.
 
oneworld2 said:
Nope, there you go again using the suffering of people you don't care about to ride the Hamas horse whilst sticking your head in the sand/trying for censorship about the crimes/terrorism of other actors that include your own country and Israel.
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This thread isn't about "other actors".

But you know that.

It's what you do. An automated Hamas defense shield.
 
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oneworld2 said:
When you have studied what and how religion played/plays its part in wars involving Muslims maybe you could then , in the name of objectivity , study how the West has used religion and a whole host of other mechanisms to prosecute wars that are supported by large parts of the populations in their country. I gave you some pointers in the last post I made to your own
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Very bottom line:

- Mohamed taught war and made war. Muslims who make war do so because of his example.
- Jesus taught peace and forgiveness. Christians who make war do so in spite of his example.

It couldn't be more obvious.
 
Yasureoktoo said:
This has been pointed out to you, but somehow you can't seem to understand it.

If the west uses religion, they probably use Christianity, and have to bend the religion to claim it supports wars and other BS.
As I said before, people in charge bending the religion to suit their means,
making claims that simply are not in the religion.

In Islam however, the orders are written very plainly in the religious texts themselves.
Nobody has to make up anything.
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Whole continents and many millions of people were conquered under the guise of the cannon and the cross/"white mans burden" by Western conquerers so it matters not if it is written into the religious texts of a religion or not.

As I have said already , it might work on some Muslims or even many Muslims if push comes to shove because they haven't lost their faith whereas many people within the western societies have, so you need to use different mechanisms to get them to support the wars against other people.

If you want to look at the world framed by the events of 9/11 and want to convince yourself that Islam is the issue rather than western global hegemony feel free to do so but I think it is a very narrow approach to understanding events in which Muslims are involved in conflicts with the West or its allies/client state managers
 
Yasureoktoo said:
Gave me two what.
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Mechanisms currently being used to get people to kill other people, mechanisms that are very real and openly stated as the reasons for the violence
 
Fledermaus said:
This thread isn't about "other actors".

But you know that.

It's what you do. An automated Hamas defense shield.
Click to expand...

Your threads here are HARDLY EVER about other actors and that only onfirms what I say about you and them.

You used, and I mean used , the torture of a Palestinians at the hands of Hamas as a means to attack them for being torturing scumbags, I have no issue with that

But

You then remain silent on the widespread Israeli torture of children or defend the murder of journalists at the hands of Israeli snipers

Your own country tortured people at a military base in Cuba and sent others to be tortured by Assads thugs but will defend their acts of torture and/or murder.

Your attempts to air brush out of the debate the PA's involvement in the crimes against these people you are using as nothing more than useful tools is hideous and obvious and shows that you really don't care about their suffering.

How am I defending Hamas if I have consistantly termed their behaviour as despicable or horrfiic and consistantly refer to many of their actions as crimes? Your post and claim is nothing more than the usual projection I have come to expect from you
 
stevecanuck said:
Very bottom line:

- Mohamed taught war and made war. Muslims who make war do so because of his example.
- Jesus taught peace and forgiveness. Christians who make war do so in spite of his example.

It couldn't be more obvious.
Click to expand...

Having no interest in reading religious texts I won't argue about the above ( and certainly won't add other things, you will take as an easy out, into the mix) but it is still only one of the mechanisms to be used to get one group of people fighting/killing another. Christians have used their religion as a justification for wars/violence/cruelty too in the past. Seeing that a lot of people in the nations of a predominantly Christian West have lost their faith it is ridiculous to try to appeal to it in a bid to manufacture consent for wars and attacks on others.

You decided to read into Islam after the 9/11 attacks and as such are starting from a point of departure that is coloured by that event. Of course you are going to try to fit everything into that narrow perspective and obviously only look at the crimes some Muslims committed on that day as being representative of all Muslims when that is clearly a ridiculous broad stroke.

The reason 9/11 happened is because of the century long stuffing of Muslims and their nation states by the West since it overthrew the Ottoman rule there. It is the support for backward religious nutcases and/or despotic feudal monarchies and the likes that the West has given , along with the intermittent massacres/"interventions" and fuelling of Muslim on Muslim violence that is the cause of that act and other acts of terrorism............ but you can only see it as only being down to their religion. That's waaay too narrow and biased a view to be entertained by people with more objective outlooks than your own
 
oneworld2 said:
Having no interest in reading religious texts I won't argue about the above ( and certainly won't add other things, you will take as an easy out, into the mix) but it is still only one of the mechanisms to be used to get one group of people fighting/killing another. Christians have used their religion as a justification for wars/violence/cruelty too in the past. Seeing that a lot of people in the nations of a predominantly Christian West have lost their faith it is ridiculous to try to appeal to it in a bid to manufacture consent for wars and attacks on others.

You decided to read into Islam after the 9/11 attacks and as such are starting from a point of departure that is coloured by that event. Of course you are going to try to fit everything into that narrow perspective and obviously only look at the crimes some Muslims committed on that day as being representative of all Muslims when that is clearly a ridiculous broad stroke.

The reason 9/11 happened is because of the century long stuffing of Muslims and their nation states by the West since it overthrew the Ottoman rule there. It is the support for backward religious nutcases and/or despotic feudal monarchies and the likes that the West has given , along with the intermittent massacres/"interventions" and fuelling of Muslim on Muslim violence that is the cause of that act and other acts of terrorism............ but you can only see it as only being down to their religion. That's waaay too narrow and biased a view to be entertained by people with more objective outlooks than your own
Click to expand...

I think if you are going to make comments like this, I would suggest reading the religious text.
 
oneworld2 said:
Your threads here are HARDLY EVER about other actors and that only onfirms what I say about you and them.

You used, and I mean used , the torture of a Palestinians at the hands of Hamas as a means to attack them for being torturing scumbags, I have no issue with that

But

You then remain silent on the widespread Israeli torture of children or defend the murder of journalists at the hands of Israeli snipers

Your own country tortured people at a military base in Cuba and sent others to be tortured by Assads thugs but will defend their acts of torture and/or murder.

Your attempts to air brush out of the debate the PA's involvement in the crimes against these people you are using as nothing more than useful tools is hideous and obvious and shows that you really don't care about their suffering.

How am I defending Hamas if I have consistantly termed their behaviour as despicable or horrfiic and consistantly refer to many of their actions as crimes? Your post and claim is nothing more than the usual projection I have come to expect from you
Click to expand...

When it is HAMAS I want to talk about I am very clear in both title and content that HAMAS is the subject.

When it is the PIL I want to talk about I am very clear in both title and content that the PIL is the subject.

When it is the Palestinians in general I want to talk about I am very clear in both title and content that the Palestinians in general are the subject.

When it is HAMAS I want to talk about you have been very clear that you will steer the conversation away from HAMAS.

You are free to start any thread you wish about Israeli torture of children, the murder of journalists, Israeli snipers, Guantanamo, Assad thugs, PA's involvement in crimes, etc.

But you don't.

You would rather derail this discussion onto a dozen side tracks.

How are you defending HAMAS?

Because you constantly derail threads dedicated to them.
 
oneworld2 said:
Having no interest in reading religious texts I won't argue about the above ( and certainly won't add other things, you will take as an easy out, into the mix) but it is still only one of the mechanisms to be used to get one group of people fighting/killing another. Christians have used their religion as a justification for wars/violence/cruelty too in the past. Seeing that a lot of people in the nations of a predominantly Christian West have lost their faith it is ridiculous to try to appeal to it in a bid to manufacture consent for wars and attacks on others.

You decided to read into Islam after the 9/11 attacks and as such are starting from a point of departure that is coloured by that event. Of course you are going to try to fit everything into that narrow perspective and obviously only look at the crimes some Muslims committed on that day as being representative of all Muslims when that is clearly a ridiculous broad stroke.

The reason 9/11 happened is because of the century long stuffing of Muslims and their nation states by the West since it overthrew the Ottoman rule there. It is the support for backward religious nutcases and/or despotic feudal monarchies and the likes that the West has given , along with the intermittent massacres/"interventions" and fuelling of Muslim on Muslim violence that is the cause of that act and other acts of terrorism............ but you can only see it as only being down to their religion. That's waaay too narrow and biased a view to be entertained by people with more objective outlooks than your own
Click to expand...

9/11 happened primarily (According to the man who blessed this attack) because it dares to have bases on holy dirt in Saudi Arabia after being invited by the Saudi Arabians. After that you have the drubbing we gave Iraq and our support of Israel.
 
oneworld2 said:
That telling the truth about things is a " radical stance " in your opinion is more revealing of you tham me , so thanks for the unintended gift

I have criticized Hamas on many occasions and call their crimes out as crimes , as I have throughout this thread by calling the acts described in the OP horrific and/or dispicable etc etc.............. it will be a cold day in Hell imo before we see anything remotely like that level of objectivity entering into your commentary.
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You are mixing things up, your radical stance is you want to arm a terror organization, that is a radical stance, it has nothing to do with my opinion, there is no way around it, and I didn't see anyone else support this beside of you of course. As result, you constantly attempt to sanitize Hamas terror attacks.
 
Yasureoktoo said:
I think if you are going to make comments like this, I would suggest reading the religious text.
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I am anti-religious due to its usefullness in either keeping people backward or justifying heinous acts and/or crimes, so I am not disagreeing with your point. So no ,there is no reason for me to read religious texts in order for me to recognize it as one of the mechanisms I referred to earlier.

Which thus brings us to you and your commentary. Fancy responding to the content in the post itself ? Have the West been guilty of sticking it to Muslims ( and others ) since the fall of the Ottomans ? Do they and have they supported ridiculously backward/repressive/despotic regimes in the Muslim world ?

I suggest if you are going to talk about this subject it would serve you well to spend some time away from Islam to study those types of questions
 
NO1 said:
You are mixing things up,
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Nope , not at all , I am just calling you out for lying about my commentary here whilst projecting your own partisan bias in an obvious act of hypocrisy


your radical stance is you want to arm a terror organization, that is a radical stance, it has nothing to do with my opinion, there is no way around it, and I didn't see anyone else support this beside of you of course. As result, you constantly attempt to sanitize Hamas terror attacks.
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The state of Israel is a state that engages in state terrorism and yet nobody here is calling for an arms embargo on it/disarmament of it. The US likewise. The UK likewise. Seeing as this board is full of people from those states is it surprising they only see " terror " as coming from others ? And to paraphrase Orwell , in a time of deceit telling the truth is a radical/revolutionary act.

While we are at it , seeing as you have that quote of mine as a sig ( no problem ), the context of my support for arming the Palestinians with better weapons was to try to prevent the likelihood of increases in violence that kill and threaten people on both sides. One side has a high tech military killing machine it uses against a virtually defenceless population it is seeking to crush. The otherside has to resort to asymetrical warfare that all too often results in either war crimes or acts of outright terrorism. Maybe if they were better able to defend themselves your own state would be forced to scale in its own state terrorism/war crimes.

Quoting out of context is what people like you do all the time. You follow that with misrepresentations of the views/commentary of others who hold a different view and wish to frame things in their proper contexts.

I regularly refer to Hamas actions as crimes but I have NEVER read a post of your that has acknowledged the crimes of your own faction thus your phoney claims based on misrepresentations and out of context quoting are rejected and the counter charge that you engage in outright projection further sustained.
 
Fledermaus said:
9/11 happened primarily (According to the man who blessed this attack) because it dares to have bases on holy dirt in Saudi Arabia after being invited by the Saudi Arabians. After that you have the drubbing we gave Iraq and our support of Israel.
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Every part of which supports my argument...............not your intended goal but hey
 
Fledermaus said:
When it is HAMAS I want to talk about I am very clear in both title and content that HAMAS is the subject.

When it is the PIL I want to talk about I am very clear in both title and content that the PIL is the subject.

When it is the Palestinians in general I want to talk about I am very clear in both title and content that the Palestinians in general are the subject.

When it is HAMAS I want to talk about you have been very clear that you will steer the conversation away from HAMAS.

You are free to start any thread you wish about Israeli torture of children, the murder of journalists, Israeli snipers, Guantanamo, Assad thugs, PA's involvement in crimes, etc.

But you don't.

You would rather derail this discussion onto a dozen side tracks.

How are you defending HAMAS?

Because you constantly derail threads dedicated to them.
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Virtually all of your threads here are Hamas this or Hamas that threads and it is only when it serves your purposes that others are brought in as they have as a result of this thread. Newsflash........... the conflict predates the advent of Hamas by many many decades and would carry on if all of its members were to disappear tomorrow. You are stuck in a loop that focuses on one part of the conflict and constantly demand that I should thus restrict my commentary to that narrow focus too............... ain't gonna happen because people should look at the broader perspectives and most accurate descriptions of events if they are ever to understand the reality of the situation in anywhere near a more objective way.

I say me because it is just me . You are okay and engage in tangent conversations both in your own threads where you demand others to stay on topic and threads started by other posters with no regard for any derailment it might cause to that thread.

It's just grade A hypocrisy on display
 
Fledermaus said:
What do you IMAGINE was my "intended goal"?
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Justification for the crimes committed by the states you wish to support and to try to undermine my argument about the Wests century long sticking it to the Arabs/Muslims after the fall of the Ottomans
 
oneworld2 said:
Virtually all of your threads here are Hamas this or Hamas that threads and it is only when it serves your purposes that others are brought in as they have as a result of this thread. Newsflash........... the conflict predates the advent of Hamas by many many decades and would carry on if all of its members were to disappear tomorrow. You are stuck in a loop that focuses on one part of the conflict and constantly demand that I should thus restrict my commentary to that narrow focus too............... ain't gonna happen because people should look at the broader perspectives and most accurate descriptions of events if they are ever to understand the reality of the situation in anywhere near a more objective way.

I say me because it is just me . You are okay and engage in tangent conversations both in your own threads where you demand others to stay on topic and threads started by other posters with no regard for any derailment it might cause to that thread.

It's just grade A hypocrisy on display
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Hamas gives me so much to work with. Building terror tunnels. Thousands of terrorist attacks. Ripping of the Palestinians of Gaza. Murdering their own. Firebombing. Ripping off the sick. Prosecuting journalist who expose ripping off the sick. Importing terror weapons instead of spending needed money on Palestinian needs....

The list goes on and on...

And as I have always said... If you wish to discuss other entities you can do so... In any thread you create.
 
Fledermaus said:
Hamas gives me so much to work with. Building terror tunnels. Thousands of terrorist attacks. Ripping of the Palestinians of Gaza. Murdering their own. Firebombing. Ripping off the sick. Prosecuting journalist who expose ripping off the sick. Importing terror weapons instead of spending needed money on Palestinian needs....

The list goes on and on...

And as I have always said... If you wish to discuss other entities you can do so... In any thread you create.
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They all give so much for others to work off but you fail to understand that because you prefer to view things from very narrow perspectives and haven't the stomach to apply that standard to states whose crimes you will doggedly defend.

The above is on display in every thread you create or take part in
 
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