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Islamic Jihad Ceasefire : Rockets edition.

oneworld2 said:
If Isreal is justified in trying to kill Palestinians that they deem potential future killers of Israelis then , applying the same standards , are not Palestinians justified in trying to kill a population , the vast majority of whom will at some point in the future pose a potential life threatening danger to them in the form of IDF membership ?

Have a stab at answering the above
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No.

That was easy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Evilroddy said:
Fledermaus:

Does this thread have a point which can be debated? If so, what is that point?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Sure.

1. Does anyone think it is a bad thing a terrorist leader is taken out of the gene pool?

2. Does anyone think it is a good the PIL decided to launch hundreds of rockets in memorium resulting in IDF response and dead Palestinians?

3. Why hasn't Hamas invested in shelters thereby decreasing Palestinian casualties? (Plenty of construction materials for tunnels, none for Palestinians)

4. The obvious point. Cease Fire = Reloading.
 
Fledermaus said:
Sure.

1. Does anyone think it is a bad thing a terrorist leader is taken out of the gene pool?

2. Does anyone think it is a good the PIL decided to launch hundreds of rockets in memorium resulting in IDF response and dead Palestinians?

3. Why hasn't Hamas invested in shelters thereby decreasing Palestinian casualties? (Plenty of construction materials for tunnels, none for Palestinians)

4. The obvious point. Cease Fire = Reloading.
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Fledermaus:

1) Along with Baha Abu al Ata was killed his wife. Also injured were two of his children. In the ensuing Israeli raids there have been 34 deaths and hundreds of injuries. About half of those deaths have been civilians. Eight women and children died to get one rocket engineer. When you target homes, you target civilians.

2) People consumed by despair and rage do not necessarily do the right thing or the good thing. Was it good? No, not from my perspective or yours. But from a despairing Palestinian perspective, I can see a measure of satisfaction at striking back at the enemy, even if the strike is largely futile. Perspectives change when you're trapped in a dead-end, open air prison by the military of a regional superpower bent on taking your lands and fully displacing your people, and are powerless to stop them.

3) Because priorities are different for Hamas and the PIJ. Killing Israelis trumps protecting Palestinians in the inverted world of the rabid underdog. There are so many people crammed into Gaza that there is no place to hide, especially since the USA has supplied the IAF with so many deep penetrating bombs which Israel would use on such shelters.

4) A better answer might be that Hamas is standing aside in order to protect its long term cease fire with Israel and the PIJ does not have the means to control all Palestinians capable of launching rockets into Israel. No one is in control in other words.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
Fledermaus:

1) Along with Baha Abu al Ata was killed his wife. Also injured were two of his children. In the ensuing Israeli raids there have been 34 deaths and hundreds of injuries. About half of those deaths have been civilians. Eight women and children died to get one rocket engineer. When you target homes, you target civilians.

2) People consumed by despair and rage do not necessarily do the right thing or the good thing. Was it good? No, not from my perspective or yours. But from a despairing Palestinian perspective, I can see a measure of satisfaction at striking back at the enemy, even if the strike is largely futile. Perspectives change when you're trapped in a dead-end, open air prison by the military of a regional superpower bent on taking your lands and fully displacing your people, and are powerless to stop them.

3) Because priorities are different for Hamas and the PIJ. Killing Israelis trumps protecting Palestinians in the inverted world of the rabid underdog. There are so many people crammed into Gaza that there is no place to hide, especially since the USA has supplied the IAF with so many deep penetrating bombs which Israel would use on such shelters.

4) A better answer might be that Hamas is standing aside in order to protect its long term cease fire with Israel and the PIJ does not have the means to control all Palestinians capable of launching rockets into Israel. No one is in control in other words.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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I can see the wisdom in much of what you say.

As to #4 . It is hard to remember all the actors at this point. It reminds me of the pseudo factions in the Life of Brian.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
No.

That was easy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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It's always " easy " to dodge the question. How about saying why ?
 
oneworld2 said:
It's always " easy " to dodge the question. How about saying why ?
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Because the argument that terrorists should be allowed to terrorize populations because those populations will grow up to produce people who will protect the population from terrorists is stupid.

But digging the hot take talking point you’ve “come up with” (which is showing up on twitter too) that targeting ticking bomb terrorists is not allowed but at the same tome those terrorists can attack whoever they want since Israel forces its population to serve in the army to protect itself.

The logic of asserting that forced conscription means that you can target any and every person in the country at all times and for any reason is a wonderful one for illustrating the utter depravity of the pro-Palestinian side, so thank you for that.
 
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CJ 2.0 said:
Because the argument that terrorists should be allowed to terrorize populations because those populations will grow up to produce people who will protect the population from terrorists is stupid.
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The IDF are the enablers/prosecutors of the Israeli state terrorism being visited on the Palestinians , year in year out , the ones killing them in droves , enforcing a seige , violating their human rights, engaging in war crimes............. they are the state terrorist opposng the none state terrorists on the Palestinian side and as such should be treated the same when it comes to their conduct.

But digging the hot take talking point you’ve “come up with” (which is showing up on twitter too) that targeting ticking bomb terrorists is not allowed but at the same tome those terrorists can attack whoever they want since Israel forces its population to serve in the army to protect itself.
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I never said it wasn't allowed. Why are you compelled to be dishonest about what people have said ? You claim that Arabs are dishonest and yet constantly show dishonest characteristics yourself.

Read back and you will find I don't tend to support extrajudicial killings as a point of principle but my objection here is that violent Israeli actions clearly ignited the recent conflict with PIJ but there are those here and elsewhere trying to rewrite/obscure the sequence of events so as to make out that Israel is the party that is responding to violence when it is clear they are the initiators of it in this instance. PIJ rockets are a response to the IDF extrajudicial killing of one otheir members , his wife , and the injuries caused to other including his children.

It is obvious that Israel is defending itself in the same way all occupiers and subjugators have to defend themselves........... from the people they are violating every day of their lives. Your bid to put the cart before the horse so as to blame the Palestinians on every occasion is both false and dishonest
The logic of asserting that forced conscription means that you can target any and every person in the country at all times and for any reason is a wonderful one for illustrating the utter depravity of the pro-Palestinian side, so thank you for that.
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I never said you can target them legally. Why are you being so dishonest again ?

I posited a question.

If it is deemed ok for the IDF to kill people they claim pose a future threat to the people of Israel, then why is it not ok for Palestinains to kill people from Israel who will be compelled to join the IDF and thus will inevitably play their part in the lethal threat that organisation poses to their people ? In short just how " innocent " are these " innocent Israelis " in that context ?

I speak for myself only and not the " pro Palestinians side " generally. Applying the same standards to both sides is what separates the " pro Palestinian " folk from the " pro Israel " folk in the vast majority of debates here imo and that is what makes their platform the more robust and fair.

You have decided for yourself that it is just and OK for the IDF state terrorists of Israel to kill Palestinian terrorists and their family members ( and anyone else who just happens to be in the wrong place at the time ) on the grounds that they pose a threat to Israelis but fail to see the hypocrisy in denying the Palestinians the same wrt the state terrorism the IDF , made up of the citizens of Israel , and the lethal threat that organisation poses to their lives and livelihoods.

That you find evenhandedness to be " depraved " is illustrative of your own wayward moral standards only , so thank you for showing it once more along with that infamous dishonesty you always ascribe to Arabs
 
Fledermaus said:
If you have to ask....
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I was going to respond to one of your earlier posts but it was a mess and thus wasn't worth the effort needed to sort it out into something understandable.

Have any luck finding definitions of terrorism ?:roll:

My guess is you haven't even looked because you know already that the actions of the state of Israel wrt it's treatment of/crimes against the Palestinians also fit the bill for definitions of terrorism and thus you would be dead in the water for presenting anything.

Much better for people like yourself to cast the brown people as terrorists and the white people as those fighting against it.......... it just ticks the boxes you wish to see ticked and reinforces long held beleifs enshrined in racial discrimination.
 
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oneworld2 said:
I was going to respond to one of your earlier posts but it was a mess and thus wasn't worth the effort needed to sort it out into something understandable.

Have any luck finding definitions of terrorism ?:roll:

My guess is you haven't even looked because you know already that the actions of the state of Israel wrt it's treatment of/crimes against the Palestinians also fit the bill for definitions of terrorism and thus you would be dead in the water for presenting anything.

Much better for people like yourself to cast the brown people as terrorists and the white people as those fighting against it.......... it just ticks the boxes you wish to see ticked and reinforces long held beleifs enshrined in racial discrimiation.
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Ummm

Yeah.

The definition of terrorism has been presented time and again. And you have been asked about the definition of terrorism time and again.

And it was you running from the question.

Again.... What defines terrorism is both the intent and the targets.

And both know this.

Why play stupid games.

If HAMAS/PIL launches hundreds of rockets targeting civilians that is the act of terrorists.

If the IDF strikes at the perpetrators of these terrorist attacks that is not the act of terrorists.

The final paragraph of your is yet another pathetic attempt at using the race card.

What race is Palestinian?
 
Evilroddy said:
Fledermaus:

Does this thread have a point which can be debated? If so, what is that point?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

His point is that even when Israel initiates the violence they are responding to it. Palestinians can't respond by definition because they are just violent automatons who just love the violence and the chance to attack Jews.

The wholesale violations of their rights , the state terrorism used to deny them those rights and subjugate them as a people don't count as valid reasons for their desperate and/or illegal acts. In short they have no right to respond , no reason to either , they are the initiators NEVER the responders.

That's the point and it's the same point in virtually every one of their threads. Thread after thread , violent and criminal Palestinians and peacenik law abiding Israelis who are forced into action only because of the psychopathic make up of the people of Palestine who should just endure the deprivations visited on them by the state of Israel.
 
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oneworld2 said:
His point is that even when Israel initiates the violence they are responding to it. Palestinians can't respond by definition because they are just violent automatons who just love the violence and the chance to attack Jews.

The wholesale violations of their rights , the state terrorism used to deny them those rights and subjugate them as a people don't count as valid reasons for their desperate and/or illegal acts. In short they have no right to respond , no reason to either , they are the initiators NEVER the responders.

That's the point and it's the same point in virtually every one of their threads. Thread after thread , violent and criminal Palestinians and peacenik law abiding Israelis who are forced into action only because of the psychopathic make up of the people of Palestine who should just endure the deprivations visited on them by the state of Israel.
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If the Palestinian leaders (AKA Terrorists in Gaza) were so peace loving there would not be so many stories to present.

In which one of my threads did the events noted not occur?

Hmmmmm?
 
Fledermaus said:
Ummm

Yeah.

The definition of terrorism has been presented time and again. And you have been asked about the definition of terrorism time and again.

And it was you running from the question.

Again.... What defines terrorism is both the intent and the targets.

And both know this.

Why play stupid games.

If HAMAS/PIL launches hundreds of rockets targeting civilians that is the act of terrorists.

If the IDF strikes at the perpetrators of these terrorist attacks that is not the act of terrorists.

The final paragraph of your is yet another pathetic attempt at using the race card.

What race is Palestinian?
Click to expand...

The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives"
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What's unlawful?

It is unlawful to engage in hostilities without exhausting all peaceable means. The state of Israel blocks those peaceable means every year at the UN with crucial help from the US SC veto

Most of the Israeli occupation practices have dubious legal and/or outright illegal foundations. Occupiers have legal duties to the people they occupy and the wholesale rights violations, collective punishments , army killings , illegal settlements , dodgy military courts system of " justice ", electoral interference, restriction of movements and goods etc etc all undermine those duties/responsibilites

There is no doubt that the IDF is the means to force , by legal means and none legal means , or "coerce " " intimidate " a people ( the Palestinians ) into abandoning their fight for their right to self determination in a state of their own made up of the OPT's................
 
oneworld2 said:
What's unlawful?

It is unlawful to engage in hostilities without exhausting all peaceable means. The state of Israel blocks those peaceable means every year at the UN with crucial help from the US SC veto

Most of the Israeli occupation practices have dubious legal and/or outright illegal foundations. Occupiers have legal duties to the people they occupy and the wholesale rights violations, collective punishments , army killings , illegal settlements , dodgy military courts system of " justice ", electoral interference, restriction of movements and goods etc etc all undermine those duties/responsibilites

There is no doubt that the IDF is the means to force , by legal means and none legal means , or "coerce " " intimidate " a people ( the Palestinians ) into abandoning their fight for their right to self determination in a state of their own made up of the OPT's................
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The US Code fits Palestinian attacks upon Israel to a tee.

As to exhausting peaceable means.... What "peaceable means" work with terrorists?

Please share.

In the latest dust up a Terrorist Commander got his bag smashed as he planned an attack on Israel.

What "peaceable means" should have been used to prevent the attack?

What "peaceable means" did the PIL exhaust before launching hundreds of rockets in response to a terrorist death?
 
Fledermaus said:
1. Does anyone think it is a bad thing a terrorist leader is taken out of the gene pool?
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"Gene pool " ?? seriously !!

There is no link to terrorism via genetics and the fact that you can infer that there is shows as an extremist bigotry as I have had the misfortune to witness here.

Be sure if you see a huge disparity of military capability between two protagonists there is a very high likelihood that the weaker party might have some of their people resort to terrorism. It has NOTHING to do with genetics. Unbelievable!!
 
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Fledermaus said:
2. Does anyone think it is a good the PIL decided to launch hundreds of rockets in memorium resulting in IDF response and dead Palestinians? .
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" In memorium " ?? Seriously!!

They are not firing them in memorium but in RESPONSE to the killing of one of their own , his wife and ther injuries to his kids.

So you misrepresent that response by referring to it as a memorium and class Israeli actions as a response. Wow!!

The last two points I have raised should inform everybody who frequents this subforum just how bizarre/biased and bigoted you views are.

Trying to infer a link between terrorism and genetics ( but only on the Palestinian side obviously ) and folowing it up with a wholly ridiculous commentary on the events themselves , hiding the PIJ RESPONSE to an attack on their members by the IDF as a " memorium " action so as to obscure the FACT that it was a reaction.

That others seem to tolerate your rampant bigotry and the wholesale misrepresentations and lies that make up your posts here is to their detriment imho

A genetic link to the likelihood of someone becoming terrorist ( there is no other way to see that comment ) just about sums up just how irrational and obscene your views really are.
 
Fledermaus said:
The US Code fits Palestinian attacks upon Israel to a tee.

As to exhausting peaceable means.... What "peaceable means" work with terrorists?

Please share.

In the latest dust up a Terrorist Commander got his bag smashed as he planned an attack on Israel.

What "peaceable means" should have been used to prevent the attack?

What "peaceable means" did the PIL exhaust before launching hundreds of rockets in response to a terrorist death?
Click to expand...

It also fits the Israeli side too , which is precisely the point you have failed to even comment on
 
Fledermaus said:
Intent and targets.

What is the intent of the IDF and what are the targets?
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It was explained in the post you ignored :roll:

The intent is to suppress the realisation of Palestinian self determination and facilitate illegal acquisition of Palestinian territory.

The target are those Palestinains not willing to be suppressed/subjugated or victims of displacement and dispossession to accomodate illegal Israeli land acquisition
 
oneworld2 said:
" In memorium " ?? Seriously!!

They are not firing them in memorium but in RESPONSE to the killing of one of their own , his wife and ther injuries to his kids.

So you misrepresent that response by referring to it as a memorium and class Israeli actions as a response. Wow!!

The last two points I have raised should inform everybody who frequents this subforum just how bizarre/biased and bigoted you views are.

Trying to infer a link between terrorism and genetics ( but only on the Palestinian side obviously ) and folowing it up with a wholly ridiculous commentary on the events themselves , hiding the PIJ RESPONSE to an attack on their members by the IDF as a " memorium " action so as to obscure the FACT that it was a reaction.

That others seem to tolerate your rampant bigotry and the wholesale misrepresentations and lies that make up your posts here is to their detriment imho

A genetic link to the likelihood of someone becoming terrorist ( there is no other way to see that comment ) just about sums up just how irrational and obscene your views really are.
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A long rant where you pinball between hyperbole and nonsense.

Cry more about my choice of word but that is effectively what they did.

And "one of their own"?

He was a COMMANDER IN A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION.

A point you keep.avoiding.

And who said anything about genetics?

The rest of your rant is more nonsense where you attempt to attribute to me things I have naver said, inferred or implied.
 
Fledermaus said:
A long rant where you pinball between hyperbole and nonsense.

Cry more about my choice of word but that is effectively what they did.

And "one of their own"?

He was a COMMANDER IN A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION.

A point you keep.avoiding.

And who said anything about genetics?

The rest of your rant is more nonsense where you attempt to attribute to me things I have naver said, inferred or implied.
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Stop lying Fledermaus

You stated that it was " good " that the PIJ commander was " taken out of the gene pool " thus implying there is a link to a resort to terrorism and genetics

Your choice of words was only designed to obscure the fact that the PIJ rockets were a RESPONSE to the IDF attack on their members ............ nobody but a complete idiot would suggest that they were fired " in memorium "
 
oneworld2 said:
It was explained in the post you ignored :roll:

The intent is to suppress the realisation of Palestinian self determination and facilitate illegal acquisition of Palestinian territory.

The target are those Palestinains not willing to be suppressed/subjugated or victims of displacement and dispossession to accomodate illegal Israeli land acquisition
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What is the intent of the IDF and what are the targets?

On the main the intent is to stop the rampant terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens by striking HAMAS, PIL, etc. targets, strongholds,. HQs, storage areas.

The targets are as mentioned above.

The Palestinians in turn on the main tend to attacks civilians with intent to murder to further their goals of the eradication of the Jewish state. At least that is what their charters and statements say.
 
oneworld2 said:
Stop lying Fledermaus

You stated that it was " good " that the PIJ commander was " taken out of the gene pool " thus implying there is a link to a resort to terrorism and genetics

Your choice of words was only designed to obscure the fact that the PIJ rockets were a RESPONSE to the IDF attack on their members ............ nobody but a complete idiot would suggest that they were fired " in memorium "
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Any terrorist taken out of the gene pool is good.

It is a common statement. At least in the US. Similar to ART, approaching room temperature. Pushing up daisies. He has ceased to be. He's kicked the bucket. Shuffled off this mortal coil. Run down the curtain and joined the bleeding choir eternal.

Only you would make a mountain out of that molehill.

Please fail again.
 
Fledermaus said:
Any terrorist taken out of the gene pool is good.

It is a common statement. At least in the US.
.
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Which infers there is a genetic link to the likelihood of becoming a terrorist. Thx for confirming it and showing while you are at it how many dumb Americans there are that repeat junk like that
 
Fledermaus said:
What is the intent of the IDF and what are the targets?

On the main the intent is to stop the rampant terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens by striking HAMAS, PIL, etc. targets, strongholds,. HQs, storage areas.

The targets are as mentioned above.

The Palestinians in turn on the main tend to attacks civilians with intent to murder to further their goals of the eradication of the Jewish state. At least that is what their charters and statements say.
Click to expand...

It was explained to you and you have rejected it as expected because you are compelled to see terrorism as coming from only the one side.
 
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