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Palestinian shot in back says Israelis abused him for hours

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Drawdown said:
The settlements are a huge issue. I also personally think air attacks on civilians is completely indefensible. It is indefensible when they do it and it is indefensible when we do it with signature strikes using drones.
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No they aren't a huge issue. The huge issue is the opposition to peace.
The US and Israel also don't "air strike on civilians". They target terrorists who are in the middle of trying to murder actual human beings.
They aren't going to allow terrorists to murder people just because such intervention angers you. Your opinion is your own and doesn't carry much meaning outside the realm of your mind.
 
rjay said:
It is because the American people are fine with the Israeli form of apartheid.
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Hell we ignored the original apartheid atrocities until we couldnt.
 
Drawdown said:
America has always ignored Israel's human rights violations. They will again. And again. And again.
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Of course they will, because the US has veto power at the UN where any infractions imposed would immediately be nullified. There's one faint glimmer of hope though; Palestine has achieved 'non-member observer state' status at the UN and it won't be long until full statehood is recognised. At that point they will have full access to the ICJ and will be able to call Israel to account without interference from the US.
 
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Drawdown said:
The settlements are a huge issue. I also personally think air attacks on civilians is completely indefensible. It is indefensible when they do it and it is indefensible when we do it with signature strikes using drones.
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Both the return ( to Israel ) of millions of refugee Palestinians and the remaining of the hundreds of thousands of illegal Israeli settlers present extremely large problems to the two state solution. People tend to see it quite easily from a " we can't expect Israeli society to be forced to allow millions of Palestinians to return " but struggle with the settlers impact on the Palestinian side. Maybe it's just easier for people in the West to relate to white Jewish people living in the ME than it is for them wrt Arabs.

I am not an American so I am something of an observer from the outside where drone strikes are concerned . It's not a bid to paint my own country , the UK , in any better light just that we are not as actively prosecuting drone strike programmes on a comparable level.

What I find to be additionally sickening is/was the practice of firing secondary missiles after a few minutes at the same targeted area so as to deter/kill any first responders. So calculated and cold and surely illegal considering the circumstances.
 
Apocalypse said:
No they aren't a huge issue. The huge issue is the opposition to peace.
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To deny that the illegal settlers are a huge obstacle to a just resolution of the conflict is a ridculous statement to make and is on a par with those seeking to force Israel to allow the return of millions of Palestinian refugees in from the diaspora.
The US and Israel also don't "air strike on civilians".
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The stats don't lie and it is obvious there is a disregard for civilian casualties. You cannot fire a bazooka round at a bee hive claiming to have only wanted to have killed the queen bee. That action ensures the deaths of many other bees and is thus indiscriminate

They target terrorists who are in the middle of trying to murder actual human beings.
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See above and it is sad that you have to be prompted to understand that Palestinians are human beings too.

They aren't going to allow terrorists to murder people
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That's a two way street and they have other options . They could engage with the Palestinians to secure a long term ceasefire so as to set up the conditions for a just resolution of the conflict using international law. They choose ongoing conflict instead and you support that, so you are actively encouraging the cycle of violence to continue whilst only condemning one side for engaging in it .
 
Drawdown said:
Undoubtedly, but from my perspective, there really isn't that much Israel would have to do to really bring themselves in line with modern ethics. They just choose not to and will continue to abuse people with impunity as long as the US stands on their side. It is also why the US can never be an honest mediator for change in the region.
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Modern ethics as practiced in other middle eastern countries? Or we shooting for something else? If we are, would that other standard apply to other middle east countries and peoples, in particular the ones who are fighting against Israel, or would it apply only to Israel?




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oneworld2 said:
I don't think the American people are fine with it. I think it is more of a case that they have been fed such a pro Israel narrative for so long they just don't understand the reality of what is going on there and don't see it nor understand it even when they look. Plus 9/11 has also interfered with that understanding and is used to the max by Israeli propagandists furthering the manipulation of a pro Israel/anti Arab bias.
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No, just anti-Israel folks are so tied up in their narrative they don’t see that the position they are pushing in support of those seeking to destroy Israel is utterly immoral.


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Apocalypse said:
No they aren't a huge issue. The huge issue is the opposition to peace.
The US and Israel also don't "air strike on civilians". They target terrorists who are in the middle of trying to murder actual human beings.
They aren't going to allow terrorists to murder people just because such intervention angers you. Your opinion is your own and doesn't carry much meaning outside the realm of your mind.
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Funnily enough, PIJ just launched hundreds of air attacks against civilians.

And from the anti-Israel side, crickets.


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oneworld2 said:
To deny that the illegal settlers are a huge obstacle to a just resolution of the conflict is a ridculous statement to make and is on a par with those seeking to force Israel to allow the return of millions of Palestinian refugees in from the diaspora.


The stats don't lie and it is obvious there is a disregard for civilian casualties. You cannot fire a bazooka round at a bee hive claiming to have only wanted to have killed the queen bee. That action ensures the deaths of many other bees and is thus indiscriminate



See above and it is sad that you have to be prompted to understand that Palestinians are human beings too.



That's a two way street and they have other options . They could engage with the Palestinians to secure a long term ceasefire so as to set up the conditions for a just resolution of the conflict using international law. They choose ongoing conflict instead and you support that, so you are actively encouraging the cycle of violence to continue whilst only condemning one side for engaging in it .
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Except Israel is actually quite good at it, and certainly tries to avoid civilian casualties more than any other country in armed conflict. Does a better job at it too.


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CJ 2.0 said:
Modern ethics as practiced in other middle eastern countries? Or we shooting for something else? If we are, would that other standard apply to other middle east countries and peoples, in particular the ones who are fighting against Israel, or would it apply only to Israel?




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Seeing as many places in the ME are to greater or lesser extents Western client states I don't think you are able to ride that horse for long before you fall off it.

It is a historical truism that the West have traditionally sided with conservative radical Arabs than the progressives who opposed them. Then people like you , a champion of Western surpremacism , has no problem ignoring all of that in a bid to deride the peoples of the ME for their views on all kinds of diverse subjects.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
Except Israel is actually quite good at it, and certainly tries to avoid civilian casualties more than any other country in armed conflict. Does a better job at it too.


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What Israel " tries to avoid " is a groundswell of world opinion that would put so much pressure on their enablers the game would be up for it. If you are trying to make a case that the Israeli leaderships give a damn about Palestinian civilians then be prepared for a mass of evidence to say they don't and any inferences of it are purely for PR value.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
Modern ethics as practiced in other middle eastern countries? Or we shooting for something else? If we are, would that other standard apply to other middle east countries and peoples, in particular the ones who are fighting against Israel, or would it apply only to Israel?




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Do you make excuses for other countries' human rights violations or just Israel's?
 
JacksinPA said:
Palestinian shot in back says Israelis abused him for hours

HEBRON, West Bank (AP) — A young Palestinian man who was shot in the back by Israeli forces in an incident caught on video last year says the footage shows just a small part of what was a horrifying day for him.

Speaking to The Associated Press after the video emerged last week, Karam Qawasmi said he was run over by a military jeep, then beaten for several hours before troops released him, only to shoot him in the back with a painful sponge-tipped bullet as he walked away. He said Israeli investigators have never contacted him.
============================================================
In 1947 the Jews told the Palestinians 'Not to worry.' See how that worked out. See Arab–Israeli conflict - Wikipedia

The whip rested easy in the hands of the Nazis. Now it rests easy in the hands of the Israelis. What goes around comes around.
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There are no ethnic Palestinians. There are only Islamic Arabs that, for a very short period of human history, have been flocking to lands once called Judea today called Israel, to take advantage of a Jewish created prosperity, that their own culture could not create.

“Palestine” derives from “Philistine,” mostly from how the Ancient Romans pronounced it.

The Philistines were a tribe of Ancient Greeks who had no relation to the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians today. They were rivals of the Ancient Jews and the tribe disappeared centuries before there was a Roman Empire.

After Rome conquered Judea they renamed that area “Palestine” as an insult to the Jews.

After the fall of Rome and the rise of Islam. Arabs started pouring into Judea, in a failed effort to prosper from and usurp the Jews.

The Ottoman Empire and other Anti-Semites maintained the term Palestine to describe Judea, up until Israel was created.
 
Drawdown said:
Do you make excuses for other countries' human rights violations or just Israel's?
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Doesn't seem like he's making excuses for anyone, just confronting you for your words.
Do you attack other people's right to exist or just Israelis?
 
oneworld2 said:
What Israel " tries to avoid " is a groundswell of world opinion that would put so much pressure on their enablers the game would be up for it. If you are trying to make a case that the Israeli leaderships give a damn about Palestinian civilians then be prepared for a mass of evidence to say they don't and any inferences of it are purely for PR value.
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It doesn't really matter what you (choose to) think regarding the reason.
The fact is that Israel makes more efforts to avoid civilian casualties than any other military in present time and in the entire history of mankind.
Whether you choose to claim it's because of public opinion or because the moon is made of cheese isn't really interesting.
 
Apocalypse said:
Doesn't seem like he's making excuses for anyone, just confronting you for your words.
Do you attack other people's right to exist or just Israelis?
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No he and you are making excuses and what is being discussed is human rights violations not "right to exist" and yes I have criticized my own country even in this thread on the subject of its human rights violations.
 
Drawdown said:
No he and you are making excuses and what is being discussed is human rights violations not "right to exist" and yes I have criticized my own country even in this thread on the subject of its human rights violations.
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You don't do me any favors by "criticizing your own country".
I don't think it's a human right violation to target terrorists and it doesn't matter if it's the US or Israel or anyone else that does that.

I think it's a human right violation for those terrorists to target human beings and obviously deliberately violate their right to life, and I think that by attacking the side defending against them for targeting those terrorists and stopping their human right violations you're on the side that promotes such human right violations, not the other way around.
 
Apocalypse said:
You don't do me any favors by "criticizing your own country".
I don't think it's a human right violation to target terrorists and it doesn't matter if it's the US or Israel or anyone else that does that.

I think it's a human right violation for those terrorists to target human beings and obviously deliberately violate their right to life, and I think that by attacking the side defending against them for targeting those terrorists and stopping their human right violations you're on the side that promotes such human right violations, not the other way around.
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Why would I do "favors" for someone who tries to justify their human rights violations?
 
Drawdown said:
Why would I do "favors" for someone who tries to justify their human rights violations?
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The only one seen here justifying human right violations is you.
Lest we forget where the moral high ground lies, it's with those who oppose you and don't believe that terrorists should murder people with impunity.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
No, just anti-Israel folks are so tied up in their narrative they don’t see that the position they are pushing in support of those seeking to destroy Israel is utterly immoral.


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Nobody wants to destroy Israel. This is emotive nonsense. Those who are averse to Israel's foreign policy vis-a-vis Palestine want the current far-right regime gone and replaced with more moderate and reasonable people who actually want a lasting peace, unlike Netanyahu and his cabal who have done everything in their power to ensure conflict continues until all remaining Arab enclaves have been removed.
 
Apocalypse said:
It doesn't really matter what you (choose to) think regarding the reason.
The fact is that Israel makes more efforts to avoid civilian casualties than any other military in present time and in the entire history of mankind.
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evidence? Or is your opinion named "fact"?
 
snakestretcher said:
Nobody wants to destroy Israel. This is emotive nonsense. Those who are averse to Israel's foreign policy vis-a-vis Palestine want the current far-right regime gone and replaced with more moderate and reasonable people who actually want a lasting peace, unlike Netanyahu and his cabal who have done everything in their power to ensure conflict continues until all remaining Arab enclaves have been removed.
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Incorrect. Please refer to either charter of Hamas for example.
 
german hick said:
evidence? Or is your opinion named "fact"?
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You're far more than welcome to refer us to any military in the history of humanity that sent alarms to citizens & enemy combatants alike before striking, that sent leaflets warning of incoming attacks and that spent 40 minutes with a single person on the phone just to convince him to evacuate a building before an incoming strike.
 
Apocalypse said:
Doesn't seem like he's making excuses for anyone, just confronting you for your words.
Do you attack other people's right to exist or just Israelis?
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Sure he doesn't. :roll:

Where did this poster attack Israels right to exist ? If they did I must have missed it.

And do the Palestinians have a right to " exist " in their own state or is it just the Israelis?
 
Apocalypse said:
It doesn't really matter what you (choose to) think regarding the reason.
The fact is that Israel makes more efforts to avoid civilian casualties than any other military in present time and in the entire history of mankind.
Whether you choose to claim it's because of public opinion or because the moon is made of cheese isn't really interesting.
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That famous Jewish supremacism is on display again for the millionth time here.

The stats say otherwise.

You drop leaflets that say people should leave this or that area and it looks good but the reality is they don't say where they should go that would be safe and move to other areas only to get killed there because they too are under fire . It's not like this has never been done before either and I have seen examples of their use from WW2.

To another PR dupe.

They fire small missiles at homes of people alleged to play some part , evidence for it doesn't appear necessary , with a view to striking it with a massive bomb to level it minutes later. We are supposed to ignore thee fact that these are peoples homes that are being destroyed btw. Then ,in such densely populated areas as Gaza urban centres , with the sound of conflict all around investigations confirm that people inside don't even know if it is their roof that has been hit or not , or that the sound was from a more distant explosion altogether.

If they think it might be their building they might run outside and down the street only to find that they are running towards the very buiding that is targeted at the very time the flattening missile is on its way. The UN did and investigation and found , along with many HR groups investigations that the policy wasn't an efficient/effective warning mechanism and actually only served to confuse and terrorize Palestinian civilians.

The fact that the IDF has often fired a secondary missile at those attempting to respond to a first strike makes a complete mockery of your claim too. Along with a one time official policy of using Palestinian civilians to perform risky tasks , often at gun point , that endangered their lives.

Thinking around how many calories should be allowed in for the Palestinians of Gaza to keep them alive , just , rather than have the PR debacle of mass starvations there.he lists go no and your claim is farcical to any that have spent any time actually studying the conflict.

Warning Leaflets | Atomic Heritage Foundation


U.N.: Israeli ‘Roof-Knocks’ Did Not Provide Effective Warning to Gaza Civilians – Foreign Policy

Israel/Palestine: Unlawful Israeli Airstrikes Kill Civilians | Human Rights Watch
 
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