A Perceived Injustice ?

oneworld2 · Oct 17, 2019

In the course of a recent discussion someone came up with the idea that the Zionist takeover of Palestine and the dispossession and displacement of its people was a " perceived injustice ". I appreciate we all have different perceptions but I just wondered how prevelant this view was here. I wanted to understand how people can see it as anything but an injustice against the people of Palestine. So I created this thread in which to discuss it.

My view is that the Jewish people have suffered terribly throughout history and that the creation of a safe haven for them in a state of their own would be a great idea. That said, I don't think that it was just to somehow show up in Palestine with a rifle and a religious book stating you had the right to take the land from the people living there.

Especially when those that were racking up with this idea were actually being abused by another group of people altogether, namely and predominantly Europeans. With European antisemitism being the most rabid throughout history imo

So reader, was it an injustice served upon the Palestinians to create the Jewish state at their expense and to the complete detriment of the Palestinians themselves ? I say yes it was and it should be acknowledged that it was.

Just like the dispossession and displacement of the indigenous peoples of North America is largely now accepted as not being a just endeavour nor the transAtlantic slave trade etc etc

What is your own take and why ?

Fledermaus · Oct 17, 2019

oneworld2 said:
In the course of a recent discussion someone came up with the idea that the Zionist takeover of Palestine and the dispossession and displacement of its people was a " perceived injustice ". I appreciate we all have different perceptions but I just wondered how prevelant this view was here. I wanted to understand how people can see it as anything but an injustice against the people of Palestine. So I created this thread in which to discuss it.

My view is that the Jewish people have suffered terribly throughout history and that the creation of a safe haven for them in a state of their own would be a great idea. That said, I don't think that it was just to somehow show up in Palestine with a rifle and a religious book stating you had the right to take the land from the people living there.

Especially when those that were racking up with this idea were actually being abused by another group of people altogether, namely and predominantly Europeans. With European antisemitism being the most rabid throughout history imo

So reader, was it an injustice served upon the Palestinians to create the Jewish state at their expense and to the complete detriment of the Palestinians themselves ? I say yes it was and it should be acknowledged that it was.

Just like the dispossession and displacement of the indigenous peoples of North America is largely now accepted as not being a just endeavour nor the transAtlantic slave trade etc etc

What is your own take and why ?

Once upon a time there was a patch of land.

Some people decided to immigrate and build improve the land.

Others took umbrage at this because the "new" people prayed to a version of the Spirit in the Sky.

Later, after many decades, it was decided the land be split between the new comers and the people who lived there prior.

The new people chose peace and partition. The older folks said no to peace and partition.

War came. The old folks lost.

oneworld2 · Oct 17, 2019

Fledermaus said:
Once upon a time there was a patch of land.

Some people decided to immigrate and build improve the land.

Others took umbrage at this because the "new" people prayed to a version of the Spirit in the Sky.

Later, after many decades, it was decided the land be split between the new comers and the people who lived there prior.

The new people chose peace and partition. The older folks said no to peace and partition.

War came. The old folks lost.

Something of a predictable slalom through the facts there imo. I take it you think there was no injustice ? I take it then that you would apply the same thinking to justify to yourself and others every act of conquest that vanquished the indigenous peoples across the globe to include the Americas and Australia to give just two more examples ?

Some counterpoints to your, imo, highly subjective commentary.

The land these " immigrants " decided to create their state in was already the homeland of the people you ratherly oddly describe as " others ".

People that " prayed to a version of the Spirit in the Sky " had lived there since time immemorial and had enjoyed better treatment generally than those in the countries/region the new immigrants were escaping from . So to claim , as you have , that the indigenous people ( " others " ? ) " took umbrage " because these newly arriving immigrants held different religious beliefs is clearly flawed and melts under the least scrutiny imo

If people were to say that the First Nation Americans " took umbrage " to the European settlers that were displacing and dispossessing them because they were white or Christain people would laugh, and rightly so. The explanation is much simpler and logical. They "took umbrage " because they were objecting to/resisting their own displacement and dispossession from the land they considered ,rightly , to be their homeland.

Later, outsiders , many of whom as nations had been responsible for historical horrific abuses of those new immigrants , decided to seek to absolve themselves from their own crimes by forcing the indigenous people to accept a partition of their homeland. The new people accepted on the grounds that something was better than nothing and that something could be expanded , as has proven to be the case. The indigenous people did reject partition but to expect a turkey to vote for Christmas is unreasonable imo

So I get it , you think it was not an injustice. I wouldn't have expected anything less tbh thx for the opinion

Fledermaus · Oct 18, 2019

oneworld2 said:
Something of a predictable slalom through the facts there imo. I take it you think there was no injustice ? I take it then that you would apply the same thinking to justify to yourself and others every act of conquest that vanquished the indigenous peoples across the globe to include the Americas and Australia to give just two more examples ?

Some counterpoints to your, imo, highly subjective commentary.

The land these " immigrants " decided to create their state in was already the homeland of the people you ratherly oddly describe as " others ".

People that " prayed to a version of the Spirit in the Sky " had lived there since time immemorial and had enjoyed better treatment generally than those in the countries/region the new immigrants were escaping from . So to claim , as you have , that the indigenous people ( " others " ? ) " took umbrage " because these newly arriving immigrants held different religious beliefs is clearly flawed and melts under the least scrutiny imo

If people were to say that the First Nation Americans " took umbrage " to the European settlers that were displacing and dispossessing them because they were white or Christain people would laugh, and rightly so. The explanation is much simpler and logical. They "took umbrage " because they were objecting to/resisting their own displacement and dispossession from the land they considered ,rightly , to be their homeland.

Later, outsiders , many of whom as nations had been responsible for historical horrific abuses of those new immigrants , decided to seek to absolve themselves from their own crimes by forcing the indigenous people to accept a partition of their homeland. The new people accepted on the grounds that something was better than nothing and that something could be expanded , as has proven to be the case. The indigenous people did reject partition but to expect a turkey to vote for Christmas is unreasonable imo

So I get it , you think it was not an injustice. I wouldn't have expected anything less tbh thx for the opinion

There is injustice everywhere.

You simply are focus on the plight of the Palestinians to the point of wishing to arm known terrorists.

oneworld2 · Oct 18, 2019

Fledermaus said:
There is injustice everywhere.

You simply are focus on the plight of the Palestinians to the point of wishing to arm known terrorists.

So you see the dispossession and displacement of the Palestinians as unjust but can't actually bring yourself to say it/write it ?

There is child suffering and abuse all over the world too, so does that mean we should do nothing to try to stop it ?

The question remains............ is the Palestinian sense on injustice valid ? I say it absolutely is and that those that say it isn't either have no sense of justice to begin with or cannot stray from their own subjective bias for one second.

Like with all injustices it is a huge step forward when that injustice is actually acknowledged as such and here we are with people still denying it because of their own extremely biased opinions/positions

Fledermaus · Oct 18, 2019

oneworld2 said:
So you see the dispossession and displacement of the Palestinians as unjust but can't actually bring yourself to say it/write it ?

There is child suffering and abuse all over the world too, so does that mean we should do nothing to try to stop it ?

The question remains............ is the Palestinian sense on injustice valid ? I say it absolutely is and that those that say it isn't either have no sense of justice to begin with or cannot stray from their own subjective bias for one second.

Like with all injustices it is a huge step forward when that injustice is actually acknowledged as such and here we are with people still denying it because of their own extremely biased opinions/positions

Is or is not Palestine a subset of everywhere?

oneworld2 · Oct 18, 2019

Fledermaus said:
Is or is not Palestine a subset of everywhere?

Can you bring yourself to say it though ?

Fledermaus · Oct 18, 2019

oneworld2 said:
Can you bring yourself to say it though ?

Why is that so important to you?

Yes, there is injustice in how the Palestinians were treated.

The question is are they going to whine about it forever or improve their situation?

It has been half a century since they lost the first war against Israel and the later 1967 war.

Gaza has been theirs over decade. Right?

oneworld2 · Oct 18, 2019

Fledermaus said:
Why is that so important to you?

Yes, there is injustice in how the Palestinians were treated.

The question is are they going to whine about it forever or improve their situation?

It has been half a century since they lost the first war against Israel and the later 1967 war.

Gaza has been theirs over decade. Right?

It's important to acknowledge that what was done to the Palestinians was a grave injustice because an acknowlegement is one of the foundation stones for a resolution of whatever it is that is troubling that party.

You say they are still " whining " about it without thinking that the lack of an acknowlegement is a big part of why that continues to be the case.

Look how many posters that regularly post here have avoided commenting on the subjectof this thread. They must know themselves that it was an injustice but they ,like you truth be told , struggle to actually openly admit it , prefering instead to avoid it imo

We will disagree on Gaza so no point going on about it here again and it's not crucial to the discussion either.

I live by a very simple standards, one of which is. ...... "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"........... and if anyone here has the ability to put themselves into the position of the Palestinians over the last 100 or so years and has any ability to empathize then they will surely see the treatment of the Palestinians as a grave injustice.

The admission of this by the state of Israel and it's people would make a big difference to the chances of a just resolution of the conflict going forward imo and that's why I think it is important. I can totally see why Jewish people sought a safe haven and wanted a state of their own in which to offer that safe haven precisely because I can see the gross injustices done unto them throughout history.

To see one injustice but deny the other is not only not conducive to hopes of a peaceful resolution but shows a complete and obvious bias when viewing the conflict itself imo

Fledermaus · Oct 18, 2019

oneworld2 said:
It's important to acknowledge that what was done to the Palestinians was a grave injustice because an acknowlegement is one of the foundation stones for a resolution of whatever it is that is troubling that party.

You say they are still " whining " about it without thinking that the lack of an acknowlegement is a big part of why that continues to be the case.

Look how many posters that regularly post here have avoided commenting on the subjectof this thread. They must know themselves that it was an injustice but they ,like you truth be told , struggle to actually openly admit it , prefering instead to avoid it imo

We will disagree on Gaza so no point going on about it here again and it's not crucial to the discussion either.

I live by a very simple standards, one of which is. ...... "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"........... and if anyone here has the ability to put themselves into the position of the Palestinians over the last 100 or so years and has any ability to empathize then they will surely see the treatment of the Palestinians as a grave injustice.

The admission of this by the state of Israel and it's people would make a big difference to the chances of a just resolution of the conflict going forward imo and that's why I think it is important. I can totally see why Jewish people sought a safe haven and wanted a state of their own in which to offer that safe haven precisely because I can see the gross injustices done unto them throughout history.

To see one injustice but deny the other is not only not conducive to hopes of a peaceful resolution but shows a complete and obvious bias when viewing the conflict itself imo

The truth is others world wide have survived what the Palestinians went through, and far worse, and have elevated themselves out of their morass.

Risen from the ashes is a good phrase.

But the Palestinians?

No. They have taken the mantel of perpetual victim.

It is telling how you try to derail threads about the Palestinians in general and Hamas in particular. How you ignore the difference between collateral damage and intentional targeting.

Gaza stands as one of the reasons the West Bank likely won't see coming out from under the Israeli thumb. Gaza was a decent place to live at one time. Hamas turned it into an armed camp. Construction hindered by the desire to build tunnels to lash out ineffectively at the IDF. Foodstuffs, fertilizer and other materials diverted for terror weapons.

Gaza COULD be much more than a **** hole. If the Palestinians cared about nation building more than when the next strike against Israel can be launched.........

oneworld2 · Oct 18, 2019

Fledermaus said:
The truth is others world wide have survived what the Palestinians went through, and far worse, and have elevated themselves out of their morass.

Risen from the ashes is a good phrase.

But the Palestinians?

No. They have taken the mantel of perpetual victim.

It is telling how you try to derail threads about the Palestinians in general and Hamas in particular. How you ignore the difference between collateral damage and intentional targeting.

Gaza stands as one of the reasons the West Bank likely won't see coming out from under the Israeli thumb. Gaza was a decent place to live at one time. Hamas turned it into an armed camp. Construction hindered by the desire to build tunnels to lash out ineffectively at the IDF. Foodstuffs, fertilizer and other materials diverted for terror weapons.

Gaza COULD be much more than a **** hole. If the Palestinians cared about nation building more than when the next strike against Israel can be launched.........

The argument is not what has happened to others , it is whether or not the displacement and dispossession of the Palestinians was an injustice and whether or not that injustice has been acknowledged.

It's not about Gaza and it's not about Hamas. Nor is it about my objections to your threads about the Palestinians aimed at demonization of them.

It seems to have killed you to have to admit that it was an injustice which tells its own tale imo everything else was irrelevant imo

Fledermaus · Oct 18, 2019

oneworld2 said:
The argument is not what has happened to others , it is whether or not the displacement and dispossession of the Palestinians was an injustice and whether or not that injustice has been acknowledged.

It's not about Gaza and it's not about Hamas. Nor is it about my objections to your threads about the Palestinians aimed at demonization of them.

It seems to have killed you to have to admit that it was an injustice which tells its own tale imo everything else was irrelevant imo

It was an injustice.

Yep.

Agreed.

Be the professional victim or move on?

It mattered not one whit to me.

I just like seeing you rant.

oneworld2 · Oct 18, 2019

Fledermaus said:
It was an injustice.

Yep.

Agreed.

Be the professional victim or move on?

It mattered not one whit to me.

I just like seeing you rant.

My posts are not rants but it's nice to see you showing people just why you reply to them.

Fledermaus · Oct 18, 2019

oneworld2 said:
My posts are not rants but it's nice to see you showing people just why you reply to them.

I post to your threads to counter the one-trick-pony diatribes against the state of Israel and for Palestine.

Guess what. If I didn't respond your threads would die off like plants bereft of fertilizer, light and water...

You are welcome.

Fishking · Oct 18, 2019

oneworld2 said:
In the course of a recent discussion someone came up with the idea that the Zionist takeover of Palestine and the dispossession and displacement of its people was a " perceived injustice ". I appreciate we all have different perceptions but I just wondered how prevelant this view was here. I wanted to understand how people can see it as anything but an injustice against the people of Palestine. So I created this thread in which to discuss it.

My view is that the Jewish people have suffered terribly throughout history and that the creation of a safe haven for them in a state of their own would be a great idea. That said, I don't think that it was just to somehow show up in Palestine with a rifle and a religious book stating you had the right to take the land from the people living there.

Especially when those that were racking up with this idea were actually being abused by another group of people altogether, namely and predominantly Europeans. With European antisemitism being the most rabid throughout history imo

So reader, was it an injustice served upon the Palestinians to create the Jewish state at their expense and to the complete detriment of the Palestinians themselves ? I say yes it was and it should be acknowledged that it was.

Just like the dispossession and displacement of the indigenous peoples of North America is largely now accepted as not being a just endeavour nor the transAtlantic slave trade etc etc

What is your own take and why ?

Well...your accounting of the events is pretty far off, and that's probably what's causing some of your problems:

1. There were Jews living there at the time. Not all of them came from outside so it's not like there wasn't Jewish presence there.
2. They didn't just go in there and kick out all the Palestinians. They had their own property but did declare a state.
3. The very day they declared a state the Palestinians and the surrounding countries tried to kill all the Jews, a much more egregious offense than people coming in an living on land and declaring a state.
4. Those that tried to kill every single Jew lost but were not returned the favor of having all of them killed in the same manner. This is mercy.
5. The Palestinians and surrounding countries tried to conduct a war of genocide again and again. They lost and still weren't returned the favor. More mercy.
6. The Palestinians then conducted decades of terror attacks against civilians and still do to this day. No other country in the world would show as much restraint as Israel if hundreds of rockets were launched at them a year.
7. Despite all that, 20% of the population of Israel is Palestinian. They hold office in the Knesset and Supreme court.
8. If the Jews were to ever lay down their arms they would be killed.
9. All of the countries in the Middle East are made up. Why are you solely taking issue with Israel? Where is your bias coming from? Why are you not talking about occupied Kurdistan? Why are you not taking issue that the King of Jordan is Saudi and was awarded Jordan because their tribe helped the Brits in WWI? How does that make sense?

Israel is no perfect, to be sure, but no one else in the world would be even close to them if they were subjected to the same history.

oneworld2 · Oct 19, 2019

Fledermaus said:
I post to your threads to counter the one-trick-pony diatribes against the state of Israel and for Palestine.

Guess what. If I didn't respond your threads would die off like plants bereft of fertilizer, light and water...

You are welcome.

We are subjected to more than enough threads spouting Israeli perspectives and even outright propaganda so it appears you seem to dislike any kind of balance.

I think the usual subjects have stayed absent from this thread for good reason and. contrary to your claim , seem happy enough to engage in other threads they feel they can make some headway in. The ones they feel are a bridge too far they stay away from , same as it ever was imo

Fledermaus · Oct 19, 2019

oneworld2 said:
We are subjected to more than enough threads spouting Israeli perspectives and even outright propaganda so it appears you seem to dislike any kind of balance.

I think the usual subjects have stayed absent from this thread for good reason and. contrary to your claim , seem happy enough to engage in other threads they feel they can make some headway in. The ones they feel are a bridge too far they stay away from , same as it ever was imo

The Palestinians in general and Hamas in particular just give me so much material to work with. From slaughtering their own in Gaza under the cover of Israeli assault. To theft of supposedly needed supplies. The diversion of aid monies. The destruction of their own cooking oil plant. Their use of imported aid materials to make terror weapons. Their use of building materials for terror tunnels rather than rebuilding. Their intentional attacks upon innocent civilians...

The list goes on and on and on....

oneworld2 · Oct 19, 2019

Fishking said:
Well...your accounting of the events is pretty far off, and that's probably what's causing some of your problems:

1. There were Jews living there at the time. Not all of them came from outside so it's not like there wasn't Jewish presence there.
2. They didn't just go in there and kick out all the Palestinians. They had their own property but did declare a state.
3. The very day they declared a state the Palestinians and the surrounding countries tried to kill all the Jews, a much more egregious offense than people coming in an living on land and declaring a state.
4. Those that tried to kill every single Jew lost but were not returned the favor of having all of them killed in the same manner. This is mercy.
5. The Palestinians and surrounding countries tried to conduct a war of genocide again and again. They lost and still weren't returned the favor. More mercy.
6. The Palestinians then conducted decades of terror attacks against civilians and still do to this day. No other country in the world would show as much restraint as Israel if hundreds of rockets were launched at them a year.
7. Despite all that, 20% of the population of Israel is Palestinian. They hold office in the Knesset and Supreme court.
8. If the Jews were to ever lay down their arms they would be killed.
9. All of the countries in the Middle East are made up. Why are you solely taking issue with Israel? Where is your bias coming from? Why are you not talking about occupied Kurdistan? Why are you not taking issue that the King of Jordan is Saudi and was awarded Jordan because their tribe helped the Brits in WWI? How does that make sense?

Israel is no perfect, to be sure, but no one else in the world would be even close to them if they were subjected to the same history.

No the problem is your jumping in having not read the previous posts and accusing others of having a probem. That is also compounded by your introduction of stuff that is completely out of the spectrum of what is being discussed here. Maybe you think you can derail it by introducing stuff with no relevance ?

Your first point has been addressed by me already in this very thread and is thus moot

You second point appears all over the place and the rest are irelevant to the question posed in the OP of this thread

If you think that the dispossession and displacement of the Palestinians so as to create the Jewish state in Palestine was just then you can easily just say that

oneworld2 · Oct 19, 2019

Fledermaus said:
The Palestinians in general and Hamas in particular just give me so much material to work with. From slaughtering their own in Gaza under the cover of Israeli assault. To theft of supposedly needed supplies. The diversion of aid monies. The destruction of their own cooking oil plant. Their use of imported aid materials to make terror weapons. Their use of building materials for terror tunnels rather than rebuilding. Their intentional attacks upon innocent civilians...

The list goes on and on and on....

I already know what your motives are , what drives them and where they derive from and have told you so. I have no interest in your posts other than to expose them for what they are

Fledermaus · Oct 19, 2019

oneworld2 said:
I already know what your motives are , what drives them and where they derive from and have told you so. I have no interest in your posts other than to expose them for what they are

You ASSume.

You do not know.

And I notice you didn't respond to the HUGE laundry list of things the Palestinians do in general to screw themselves out of a peaceful existence.

Fledermaus · Oct 19, 2019

oneworld2 said:
No the problem is your jumping in having not read the previous posts and accusing others of having a probem. That is also compounded by your introduction of stuff that is completely out of the spectrum of what is being discussed here. Maybe you think you can derail it by introducing stuff with no relevance ?

Your first point has been addressed by me already in this very thread and is thus moot

You second point appears all over the place and the rest are irelevant to the question posed in the OP of this thread

If you think that the dispossession and displacement of the Palestinians so as to create the Jewish state in Palestine was just then you can easily just say that

Crying about derailing from the Derailer in Chief?

There was never a need for the dispossession and displacement of the Palestinians so as to create the Jewish state.

It was a choice taken by the Palestinians and their partners.

oneworld2 · Oct 19, 2019

Fledermaus said:
You ASSume.

You do not know.

And I notice you didn't respond to the HUGE laundry list of things the Palestinians do in general to screw themselves out of a peaceful existence.

Whatever SOME Palestinians do that are wrong and/or criminal they don't happen in a vacuum and the Israeli side is also guilty of wrongs and crimes , you just don't want them to be mentioned/discussed

oneworld2 · Oct 19, 2019

Fledermaus said:
Crying about derailing from the Derailer in Chief?

There was never a need for the dispossession and displacement of the Palestinians so as to create the Jewish state.

It was a choice taken by the Palestinians and their partners.

As ever you are out of touch with what the leaders of the Zionist movement were talking about wrt what to do in order to create a Jewish state in a land full of Arabs and then predominantly Arab after decades of Jewish immigration

Fledermaus · Oct 19, 2019

oneworld2 said:
Whatever SOME Palestinians do that are wrong and/or criminal they don't happen in a vacuum and the Israeli side is also guilty of wrongs and crimes , you just don't want them to be mentioned/discussed

Discuss away. Just not in threads devote to the things Palestinians do to screw themselves.

Fledermaus · Oct 19, 2019

oneworld2 said:
As ever you are out of touch with what the leaders of the Zionist movement were talking about wrt what to do in order to create a Jewish state in a land full of Arabs and then predominantly Arab after decades of Jewish immigration

What happened to the Arabs who decided to stay?

A Perceived Injustice ?

oneworld2

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