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Hamas being Hamas.... Drones, Stones and IEDs..... Peacefully attacking the fence once again.

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Apocalypse said:
And? The UN can say the world is flat and Israel had flattened it. Would it be true? Would it be relevant? Would anyone care?
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You claimed my view of the Palestinian territories/state was not based in reality and I have shown otherwise. I have shown that....

The UN considers to be Gaza occupied Palestinan territory , so too the ICJ , even the USA , along with a host of other organisations that deal with such matters.

That many countries also recognize the state of Palestine, around 70 % of them according to wiki as per July this year

That the UNGA recognized it as OPT as far back as 1988. How many recognize the illegal annexation of East Jerusalem ? lol

Obviously you have your ow personal version of reality perculiarly shaped by rabid ethno nationalism
 
oneworld2 said:
And there we have it,

" East Jerusalem is Israeli " because Israel was able to conquer it using violence against the Palestinians in 1967. Where is the reciprocal support for the right of Palestinians to defend themselves from Israeli state terrorism or the denouncement of the violence used to gain the territory of another people ?

See , when it comes down to it you actually support terror and violence if it is carried out by your own people against another people but condemn it when it is the other way around , in a truly and obvious hypocritical fashion. When Jews do it you consider it legitimate when Arabs do it or attempt to do it this is deemed illegitimate. That view is just blatant racism so the charge I made is the correct one and is supported by your stance on the Israeli violent takeover of Palestinian East Jerusalem. Slam dunk!
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East Jerusalem is Israeli because Israel controls it and is the only country that has any legitimate claim to it based on international law (see the League of Nations mandate and the war lost by Jordan following its illegal occupation of Mandate territory and war of aggression against Israel). Thwe Palestinians have no actual claim to Jerusalem and Arabs who live in Jerusalem are either Israeli citizens or can become Israeli citizens as of right.

And no matter what you think about Israel's claim, any future Palestinian political entity has no valid claim on East Jerusalem under international law. Like none.

See, when it comes down to it, you want to pretend Israel doesn't have a legitimate claim to Jerusalem because you don't like that Jews control Jerusalem and don't like that Israel exists and successfully defended itself against Arab aggression. You also support terror and violence to take control of Jerusalem from the Jews, in a truly and obvious hypocritical fashion.
 
oneworld2 said:
Only if you are a hypocrite imo
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Not really. I also concede that Istanbul is Turkish.

Under both reality as it exists and international law, no nation, no people, have a more legitimate claim to Jerusalem than Israel.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
East Jerusalem is Israeli territory. It has never been Palestinian territory. No international organization has even deemed to allocate East Jerusalem to the Palestinians.
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The international consensus is based on East Jerusalem being and remaining Occupied Palestinian Territory and virtually nobody endorses the illegal Israeli annexation of it , correct ?
They just want it. But that's fine, they can't have it.
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Might is right and thus when you try to use the laws ( which this clearly breaks ) to your own ends it just looks and is completely hypocritical not to mention racist
So how many of them are you willing to sacrifice over the next 100 years to keep fighting for it?

Let's just get down to brass tacks on this one.
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That's their decision not mine , nor yours. If they were to concede it for peace I would support it and respect THEIR decision.
The only racist thing here is the obsession about Israel from people who wouldn't care less if the Palestinians were facing the same or worse conditions from non-Jews (which they are).
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Not at all. Many recognize that it is a case of the oppressed becoming the oppressors themselves. And if a viable Palestinian state were to exist then those being abused by other Arab leaderships could leave for a homeland of their own where they wouldn't be in that position.

The people who truly don't care are the people like yourself who see Palestinians as inferior to Jews.
The days of Arabs using Jewish holy and historical sites in Jerusalem as latrines and building materials are over. I know that hurts folks like you and the Palestinians certainly hate it, but tough beans. The Europeans can go kick around the Jews that are still in Europe for a while like you guys always do when unhappy, but the Jews in Israel are done asking your permission to protect themselves or their civilization.
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Doesn't hurt me at all. I want to see both peoples living in their own states and enjoying authentic autonomy. You just want Jews to have it and stuff the Palestinians , they can live in whatever state lite you can bestow on them because you are not a fair person imo

And seeing as the Goyim are so despicable why do you still want to live amongst them in Canada AND claim to be an Israeli civilian ? Two countries for you and you couldn't care less if the Palestinians had none. Why am I not surprised ? lol
 
oneworld2 said:
The international consensus is based on East Jerusalem being and remaining Occupied Palestinian Territory and virtually nobody endorses the illegal Israeli annexation of it , correct ?
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Sorry, the what? Under international consensus 5 years ago there were only 2 genders.

My observation is as relevant as yours to an actual assessment of "international law".

No international organization had deemed to allocate East Jerusalem to the Palestinians and it is now sovereign Israeli territory so they can't do it retroactively.

Might is right and thus when you try to use the laws ( which this clearly breaks ) to your own ends it just looks and is completely hypocritical not to mention racist
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can it be sexist too? Maybe colonialist? What else, what else.... maybe homophobic? And maybe my words are violence?

Silly leftist nonsense.

That's their decision not mine , nor yours. If they were to concede it for peace I would support it and respect THEIR decision.
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ok, so go tell them it is in their best interest to concede it. In the meantime your advocacy is making things worse for them, not better.

Or, alternatively, you can get more involved in causes that can actually make a difference for people who want help and whose goals don't involve the destruction of other countries.

Not at all. Many recognize that it is a case of the oppressed becoming the oppressors themselves. And if a viable Palestinian state were to exist then those being abused by other Arab leaderships could leave for a homeland of their own where they wouldn't be in that position.

The people who truly don't care are the people like yourself who see Palestinians as inferior to Jews.
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lol.

Doesn't hurt me at all. I want to see both peoples living in their own states and enjoying authentic autonomy. You just want Jews to have it and stuff the Palestinians , they can live in whatever state lite you can bestow on them because you are not a fair person imo
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:( ... :cry: ...:boohoo:

And seeing as the Goyim are so despicable why do you still want to live amongst them in Canada AND claim to be an Israeli civilian ? Two countries for you and you couldn't care less if the Palestinians had none. Why am I not surprised ? lol
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I'm not an Israeli civilian. Who says I am? But next time the world decides to get all genocidy, I at least have somewhere to go.
 
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Hamas is just a pawn of Iran in their cold war with Saudi Arabia. I'm willing to put money on Hamas being involved in the current instability regarding the Israeli executive branch. Provocatuers are trying to sow discord in Israel domestically, and it looks like its been there for awhile - discredit Israel as a legitimate democracy by supporting right-wing extremists, Hamas and Hizbullah get publicity as the mainstream media focuses on them and the left and right-wings polarize the West by backing increasingly divergent and hostile narratives revolving around antisemitism and Islamophobia respectively, while Iran and/or Saudi Arabia grow stronger being boosted by their respective propaganda outlets...

(and, honestly, I think Turkish neo-imperialism in the middle-east may be the puppet-master behind IT ALL)
 
oneworld2 said:
There was no dismissing of IEDs just a contemptuous deriding of the racist bias that colours so many peoples views here.

There were , by the IDFs own admission, no injuries to their forces BUT a truck was slightly damaged ( wow ) from all of those mass ordnance being slung at them. Stinks of hyperbole and the usual IDF BS.

On the other side however ?

As Mr Evilroddy has pointed out, 80 odd Palestinians injured with those injuries in all likelihood being life changing injuries and a couple of others killed outright. And you cry over flat tyres. That's the real " wow " people should have picked up on along with those that actually thanked that position themselves with their " like "

The racism is just astonishing here
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What is racist / biased about factually reporting the weapons used by Palestinians against Israelis?



Oh, and NEDJ
 
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oneworld2 said:
There are many that do believe Israel has kept enough control over Gaza for it to count as an effective control and thus is still occupied. But that doesn't even have to be the case because both the West Bank and Gaza are indivisible wrt their making up of the state of Palestine.If someone occupied Alaska it would still count as an occupation of American territory even though Canada seperates the two.

The only "twisting" going on is your whitewashing of Israeli crimes in both of those threads.

Nations that occupy other peoples territories have to defend themselves from the people they are attempting to crush , that is the correct context even if you fail to see it
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There are many who believe Elvis is alive and homeopathic meds work....

So what?
 
oneworld2 said:
Conclude a long term ceasefire agreement with Hamas in Gaza
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Not something someone on the front line can do....

Your job is stopping the assault on the fence line....

You also don't want to suffer casualties...

Less than lethal projectile weapons easily put you in effective range of Palestinian snipers.

Gas provides a smoke screen so that explosives can be brought to bear.

Your options?


(I left in the part you edited out)
 
oneworld2 said:
Let's actually apply the correct context and see how it looks

Did the British have the right to defend themselves against the Zulus at Isandlwana ?

Did the British have the right to defend themselves against the US forces during the Amerian revolution ?

Did European settlers have the right to defend themselves against the First Nation Americans?

I would say yes to all but let's at least be serious about what the situation is before we start talking about what is just and what is not

The state of Israel has the right to defend itself from the people it aims to crush with its own violence..........look any different to you now ?
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False analogy, there weren’t any Jewish colonialism.
Also, many Arabs immigrate to Israel at the 40’s, this is why the definition of “Palestinian refugee” apply to Arabs who settled in the land since 1946. Let alone the Jews in Hebron which basically living there for centuries, or the rich history of the Jews in Israel unlike the palestinians which basically starting from 67’.
 
oneworld2 said:
See , when it comes down to it you actually support terror and violence if it is carried out by your own people against another people but condemn it when it is the other way around , in a truly and obvious hypocritical fashion.
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(my emphasis)

Do I need to remind that you wanted to give guns and rockets to, the terror organization, Hamas?
 
oneworld2 said:
And there we have it,

" East Jerusalem is Israeli " because Israel was able to conquer it using violence against the Palestinians in 1967. Where is the reciprocal support for the right of Palestinians to defend themselves from Israeli state terrorism or the denouncement of the violence used to gain the territory of another people ?

See , when it comes down to it you actually support terror and violence if it is carried out by your own people against another people but condemn it when it is the other way around , in a truly and obvious hypocritical fashion. When Jews do it you consider it legitimate when Arabs do it or attempt to do it this is deemed illegitimate. That view is just blatant racism so the charge I made is the correct one and is supported by your stance on the Israeli violent takeover of Palestinian East Jerusalem. Slam dunk!
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Of course it's Israeli, it was liberated from the Jordanians.
Why are you trying to deflect discussion? Because you lost the argument.
 
Apocalypse said:
Of course it's Israeli, it was liberated from the Jordanians.
Why are you trying to deflect discussion? Because you lost the argument.
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Nope, the ICJ gave an advisory opinion in 2004 wrt the annexation wall Israel is constructing in the West Bank. They held that East Jerusalem is Occupied Palestinian territory and that all of the settlements built after the 67 war are illegal.

So we are faced with a choice, we can choose to believe you and a few other partisan hacks here or we can go with the decision made by 15 experts in international law that gave the matter their full attention.

Obviously , to anyone not blinded by a hopeless partisan bias , sensible/reasonable people will defer to the experts and the decisions they made which means.......... you lose.
 
NO1 said:
(my emphasis)

Do I need to remind that you wanted to give guns and rockets to, the terror organization, Hamas?
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Not at all, I know what I stated and , crucially , I also know the context it was made in which you leave out, thus there are no regrets here for making those comments.

Both sides engage in terrorism, so if people were consistent they would support an arms ban against both sides. Seeing as that is not happening nor likely to happen in the future the disparity in military capabilities should be evened up so as to actually deter more violence . It is a truism that only states that have an overwhelming and pretty safe recourse to resort to extreme violence tend to engage in it at the drop of a hat. Israel is such a state and it's sickening state terrorist attacks upon, illegal occupations and seige of the Palestinians are only the result of that disparity. It's the regional mafia don and as such will not be brought into its senses by weaker parties.
 
oneworld2 said:
Nope, the ICJ gave an advisory opinion in 2004 wrt the annexation wall Israel is constructing in the West Bank. They held that East Jerusalem is Occupied Palestinian territory and that all of the settlements built after the 67 war are illegal.

So we are faced with a choice, we can choose to believe you and a few other partisan hacks here or we can go with the decision made by 15 experts in international law that gave the matter their full attention.

Obviously , to anyone not blinded by a hopeless partisan bias , sensible/reasonable people will defer to the experts and the decisions they made which means.......... you lose.
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I don't really care what you believe. I also don't really mind the words of a politicized body being used in a battle of propaganda.

Jerusalem is Israeli territory. It's de facto and de jure Israeli. I've been there last week, looked just as Israeli as it's been in the last 52 years.
I'll update you if anything changes.
 
oneworld2 said:
Not at all, I know what I stated and , crucially , I also know the context it was made in which you leave out, thus there are no regrets here for making those comments.

Both sides engage in terrorism, so if people were consistent they would support an arms ban against both sides. Seeing as that is not happening nor likely to happen in the future the disparity in military capabilities should be evened up so as to actually deter more violence . It is a truism that only states that have an overwhelming and pretty safe recourse to resort to extreme violence tend to engage in it at the drop of a hat. Israel is such a state and it's sickening state terrorist attacks upon, illegal occupations and seige of the Palestinians are only the result of that disparity. It's the regional mafia don and as such will not be brought into its senses by weaker parties.
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Don't try to sugar coat it, you've been calling for murderers to be armed better so they can murder their victims better because this is your desired result and this is what your ideology is all about.
Repeating your lies about Israel's targeting of terrorists to be a form of terrorism or how Israel would not act to defend its citizens if it is deterred by the terrorists doesn't change your pro-murder position.
 
Apocalypse said:
Don't try to sugar coat it, you've been calling for murderers to be armed better so they can murder their victims better because this is your desired result and this is what your ideology is all about.
Repeating your lies about Israel's targeting of terrorists to be a form of terrorism or how Israel would not act to defend its citizens if it is deterred by the terrorists doesn't change your pro-murder position.
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Actually you are wrong again

My view is that if Hamas were better armed they would be LESS likely to engage in terrorism and MORE likely to engage the IDF as per their legitimate struggle for autonomy. You don't want them better armed precisely so they will carry on with the terrorism because it actually suits your agenda of demonizing any and every action carried out by Palestinians in their struggle for self determination.

Add to that your panic that there might be a ceasefire at some point and it becomes even more obvious who is wanting the cycle of violence that claims the lives of people on both sides to continue whilst sickeningly using the deaths of the people on one side only for the justification for it to carry on. The moral backwardness of that position is self evident and makes a mockery of your fake laims of moral superiority ( usually cemented in racial superiority )
 
Apocalypse said:
I don't really care what you believe. I also don't really mind the words of a politicized body being used in a battle of propaganda.

Jerusalem is Israeli territory. It's de facto and de jure Israeli. I've been there last week, looked just as Israeli as it's been in the last 52 years.
I'll update you if anything changes.
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The judges got it right and virtually nobody accepts the legality of your attempted annexation. They are just the facts of the matter.

People have choices , they can choose to believe what a panel of experts on international law state or people can believe a partisan hack on an anonymous debate forum like yourself

My guess is reasonable people will undoubtedly pick the former
 
NO1 said:
False analogy, there weren’t any Jewish colonialism.
Also, many Arabs immigrate to Israel at the 40’s, this is why the definition of “Palestinian refugee” apply to Arabs who settled in the land since 1946. Let alone the Jews in Hebron which basically living there for centuries, or the rich history of the Jews in Israel unlike the palestinians which basically starting from 67’.
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No it's not a false analogy.

The early Zionists were almost exclusively of European origin and were the immigrants to the land of Palestine. Settler colonialism is the most egregious form of it imo. You only have to look at the illegal Jewish settlers in the OPT's

The Joan Peters line of ........nearly all of the Palestinians aren't Palestinian was debunked by Finkelstein and Porath so it's pointless trying to reinvent it now
 
Fledermaus said:
Who owns East Jerusalem then?

And Gaza?
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The ICJ gave their verdict in 2004. A panel of expert judges considered the Occupied Palestinian Territories to consist of Gaza and the West Bank including East Jerusalem.

So , we can choose to believe their verdict which is based on the 4th Geneva Convention and its charge that it is inadmissible to acquire territory through warfare . A conventio Israel agreed to abide by prior to the events of 67 or we can choose to believe some anonymous internet partisan hacks

I'm going with the judges you can please yourself
 
Fledermaus said:
Not something someone on the front line can do....
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I never claimed it was their decision. I said the country's leadership , who are also responsible for the actions carried out by their military , can and should be forced to seek a just and lasting resolution. In fact they are contractually obliged to do so
 
oneworld2 said:
Actually you are wrong again

My view is that if Hamas were better armed they would be LESS likely to engage in terrorism and MORE likely to engage the IDF as per their legitimate struggle for autonomy. You don't want them better armed precisely so they will carry on with the terrorism because it actually suits your agenda of demonizing any and every action carried out by Palestinians in their struggle for self determination.

Add to that your panic that there might be a ceasefire at some point and it becomes even more obvious who is wanting the cycle of violence that claims the lives of people on both sides to continue whilst sickeningly using the deaths of the people on one side only for the justification for it to carry on. The moral backwardness of that position is self evident and makes a mockery of your fake laims of moral superiority ( usually cemented in racial superiority )
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Yeah and if the Nazis had a better military than perhaps they wouldn't exterminate Jews?
A genocidal organization becomes one due to its ideology and beliefs, not because of how well armed it is. This isn't a small group, it's some dozens of thousands of people creating one of the most brutal terror groups on the planet, you want the murderers armed from the same reason that someone who likes to rape little girls would want less police officers in school, and like in the example I'm using you're not really fooling anyone.

oneworld2 said:
The judges got it right and virtually nobody accepts the legality of your attempted annexation. They are just the facts of the matter.

People have choices , they can choose to believe what a panel of experts on international law state or people can believe a partisan hack on an anonymous debate forum like yourself

My guess is reasonable people will undoubtedly pick the former
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People who keep referring to what "reasonable people" would think in every single comment of theirs are obviously aware of not belonging to that group.
East Jerusalem is a part of Jerusalem. It's Israeli, liberated from the Jordanian occupiers.
 
oneworld2 said:
Nope, the ICJ gave an advisory opinion in 2004 wrt the annexation wall Israel is constructing in the West Bank. They held that East Jerusalem is Occupied Palestinian territory and that all of the settlements built after the 67 war are illegal.

So we are faced with a choice, we can choose to believe you and a few other partisan hacks here or we can go with the decision made by 15 experts in international law that gave the matter their full attention.

Obviously , to anyone not blinded by a hopeless partisan bias , sensible/reasonable people will defer to the experts and the decisions they made which means.......... you lose.
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Except Jerusalem IS Israeli.

So someone may lose, but it’s not them...


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