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Gazans Suffer Life-Shattering Injuries by Israeli Snipers When Border Protests Turn Violent

Evilroddy said:
Did I ever say Arab politics were easy in this god-forsaken corner of the world? They're not and the dynamics of both Arab on Arab and Arab on Israeli politics made this very difficult for Jordanians (especially the greedy ones), Palestinians, Israelis and the international system to resolve peacefully. The Six Day War further complicated matters and left the Occupied Territories and a future Palestinian State in an even deeper limbo. I am not making excuses for why the Jirdanians did what they did. They, like the modern-day State of Israel, wanted the land and water resources. The only difference was the Jordanians were prepared to let the Palesrinians live there in peace.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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These are very silly excuses to try and hide the fact that Jordan had no intention to create any Palestinian state there.
 
Evilroddy said:
Did I ever say Arab politics were easy in this god-forsaken corner of the world? They're not and the dynamics of both Arab on Arab and Arab on Israeli politics made this very difficult for Jordanians (especially the greedy ones), Palestinians, Israelis and the international system to resolve peacefully. The Six Day War further complicated matters and left the Occupied Territories and a future Palestinian State in an even deeper limbo. I am not making excuses for why the Jirdanians did what they did. They, like the modern-day State of Israel, wanted the land and water resources. The only difference was the Jordanians were prepared to let the Palesrinians live there in peace.Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Errrrrrrrrr

Things were never as rosy as you paint them. Palestinians in Jordanian West Bank were attacking Jordanian cities, they attempted to assassinate the King more than once, attacked Israeli prompting retaliatory attacks on Jordan and generally being pains in the ass.

They continued to be a pain in the ass until being forced out of Jordan and into Lebanon.
 
Evilroddy said:
Apocalypse:

Taken by the Jordanians from the British Administered Mandate of Palestine to prevent its seizure by Jewish militias, territory which Britain and the UN had explicitly set aside for a Palestinian state to be created on.
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Every single thing in this sentence is false.

It was not “taken to prevent its seizure by British militias”, in fact it was used to starve the Jews out. It was not set aside for a Palestinian state. And it was not “taken from the British” because the British mandate was over.

But from whom the land was seized is irrelevant. That the State of Israel seized the land in 1967 during a war which the State of Israel chose to launch, means that the State of Israel cannot ever annex the territory legally by military means.
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The Jordanians attacked Israel. Israel had tried to get Jordan not to but Jordan did anyways. So again, distorted falsehood masquerading as informed policy analysis.




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Evilroddy said:
Apocalypse:



From: East Jerusalem - Wikipedia

In January 1950 the State of Israel formally rejected the UN's free city status for Jerusalem. In reaction and as a protective move Jordan held plebiscites and then annexed the West Bank and East Jerusalem, to hold these territories in trust for a future Palestinian state. The U.K. agreed with the annexation in trust but stipulated that Jordan did not have sovereignty over the annexed territory. The territory was supposed to go to a new Palestinian state. So you're wrong.

This is all irrelevant however as the State of Israel forcefully seized by military means these territories in a war which the State of Israel chose to initiate (a war of aggression) and is thus forbidden from annexing these militarily occupied territories by international laws and conventions which Israel signed on to when it joined the UN. So the historical facts support the Palestinian claims to the occupied territories and not Israel's. However, when Palesrinians try to exercise their legitimate claims, the IDF, the IAF and the Israeli state use military force to prevent them from doing so, resulting in the deaths of many thousands of Palestinians and the injuring of tens of thousands since 1967. That is why the Palestinians continue to suffer under Israeli military occupation and control as per the title of this thread.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Will leave to to Apocalypse to deal with your errors of fact, which he has well under control thus far.

The Palestinians continue to suffer because they are unwilling to make peace with the Jews. No more, no less. You are running obstruction for them.


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Fledermaus said:
Taken by the Jordanians from the British Administered Mandate of Palestine and annexed as Jordanian territory.

Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank and East Jerusalem were granted Jordanian citizenship and half of the Jordanian Parliament seats. Citizenship that remained until 1988. The Jews of the area were not as well treated.

The Jordanian commander is reported to have told his superiors: "For the first time in 1,000 years not a single Jew remains in the Jewish Quarter. Not a single building remains intact. This makes the Jews' return here impossible."
Jewish Quarter (Jerusalem) - Wikipedia
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Ethnic cleansing for me, but not for thee.

And yet the ethnic cleansing canard is only ever used as an inverted accusation against the Jews cleansed from Hebron and Jerusalem who managed to reassert their presence there, even though their presence did not require or involve any population transfer of the Arab population.

In other words, dishonest propaganda built on a web of lies. Pretty much the entire anti-Israel “pro-Palestinian” movement in a nutshell.


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Evilroddy said:
Apocalypse:

No, I admit nothing and I have amply demonstrated why East Jerusalem cannot be legally annexed by the State of Israel. I have provided some evidence, but frankly based on past practices, you don't care a fig about evidence, so I will let others do some homework rather than doing the work for you, when you will very likely just dismiss it out of hand anyway. There is no sustainable rational debate possible with zealots and in my humble opinion you fall into that category. So crow "victory!" if you want to and I will continue to advocate for a peaceful international boycott and sanctions regime to be placed on the State of Israel until it ends and reverses its illegal and ongoing annexations of Palestinian lands and ends its brutal military repression of non-combatant Palestinians.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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I agree with you. We undoubtedly disagree on who the zealot is, though. We can also ignore the ignorance of what the Palestinians are fighting for, since as you say there is no sustainable, rational debate possible with a Zealot.


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Evilroddy said:
Fledermaus:

The U.K. intended the lands to go to a Palestinian state that was all inclusive.
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This is not true.





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Fledermaus said:
The Jordanians and the Palestinian Arabs (AKA former Ottoman subjects then Jordanian citizen) couldn't figure out how to create a Palestinian state in the West Bank for nearly 20 years?

Seems like Jordan wasn't trying very hard. Annexation and conferring Jordanian citizenship is the complete opposite.
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And the termination of citizenship and making of former citizens stateless certainly sounds like something the Jews are accused of a whole lot around here. Wonder what that is...


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Evilroddy said:
Did I ever say Arab politics were easy in this god-forsaken corner of the world? They're not and the dynamics of both Arab on Arab and Arab on Israeli politics made this very difficult for Jordanians (especially the greedy ones), Palestinians, Israelis and the international system to resolve peacefully. The Six Day War further complicated matters and left the Occupied Territories and a future Palestinian State in an even deeper limbo. I am not making excuses for why the Jirdanians did what they did. They, like the modern-day State of Israel, wanted the land and water resources. The only difference was the Jordanians were prepared to let the Palesrinians live there in peace.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Not so godforsaken is it now? Some people there are doing quite well. You know, having fought off waves of genocidal invaders. Processing the absorption of almost a million refugees cleansed from surrounding countries with little else but the clothes on their backs. Fighting for the freedom of their religious compatriots that had been abandoned for millennia by others who would never lift a finger to help them. Turning a backwater mostly desert into a beacon of progress, technological advancement and cultural expression.

The Jordanians were prepared to subjugate the Palestinians, which they did. I’m shocked you can see through your rose-coloured glasses given how deep the tinting is, as far as Arab countries’ and populations’ attitudes, motivations and behaviours go.

And yet, when it comes to Israel, you really are one of those who see nothing than the warped caricature Soviet and Arab propaganda have been pushing for so many years.

I’m actually not even upset. Just a bit sad. For you, for those who have the same perspective as you, and for the Jews who can see in real time yet another completely irrational and implacable enemy movement forming to attack them. Reminds me of a statement in the passover seder book that we always try to ignore.




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Evilroddy said:
The State of Israel is committing war-crimes against Palestinian civillians at these protests and in the West Bank plus it is also abrogating its duty to protect civilians under its military occupation. The political and military decision-makers for these criminal policies should be investigated, indicted and if ever possible arrested and prosecuted by an international court, if the State of Israel won't try them itself promptly. If the US interferes, then it should be sanctioned, boycotted and isolated as a pariah state until it stops protecting these Israeli decision-makers from prosecution.

Cheers?
Evilroddy.
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Just out of curiosity, do you assign any blame at all to the terrorist organisations who attack Israel and then hide behind human shields?
 
stevecanuck said:
Just out of curiosity, do you assign any blame at all to the terrorist organisations who attack Israel and then hide behind human shields?
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He is also not telling the truth. Gaza is not occupied. As for war crimes, the day he pays equal attention to the systematic war crimes committed by the Palestinians, both against Israelis and against their own people, is the day he will be worth engaging on the Israeli side. Until then, it’s just more empty propaganda.


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Old 'N Chill said:
Video in link.

Gazans suffer life-shattering injuries when border protests turn violent | PBS NewsHour
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Let me help you with getting a more wholistic picture from the really ****ty reporting you posted above.

"The Gaza Strip has been under blockade by Israel since June 2007, when Hamas took control of the territory, violently evicting the Palestinian Authority"

You do realize that the Gaza Strip borders more than just Israel, right? Why aren't they protesting at the Egyptian border? Why isn't the reporting mentioning the Egyptian blockade? Why is there no reporting on how Hamas is using the protesters as human shields? Why is there no reporting on Hamas using the protesters in an attempt to break into Israel and carry out mass attacks?

Hmmm...
 
Fishking said:
Let me help you with getting a more wholistic picture from the really ****ty reporting you posted above.

"The Gaza Strip has been under blockade by Israel since June 2007, when Hamas took control of the territory, violently evicting the Palestinian Authority"

You do realize that the Gaza Strip borders more than just Israel, right? Why aren't they protesting at the Egyptian border? Why isn't the reporting mentioning the Egyptian blockade? Why is there no reporting on how Hamas is using the protesters as human shields? Why is there no reporting on Hamas using the protesters in an attempt to break into Israel and carry out mass attacks?
Hmmm...
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1. Egyptians aren't Jews.
2. Egyptians don't take **** from Palestinians. (They gassed more than one tunnel from Gaza to Egyptian territory)
 
Fledermaus said:
1. Egyptians aren't Jews.
2. Egyptians don't take **** from Palestinians. (They gassed more than one tunnel from Gaza to Egyptian territory)
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Oh...I know the answer. I'm just trying to see if certain someones can admit to the realities that exist there.
 
stevecanuck said:
Just out of curiosity, do you assign any blame at all to the terrorist organisations who attack Israel and then hide behind human shields?
Click to expand...

Steve Canuck:

Yes I do. Terrorists must be held accountable for their acts. I have no problem with the IDF stopping or if necessary killing terrorists trying to infiltrate into the State of Israel (based on pre-1967 lines). I have no trouble with the IDF and the IAF using precision strikes in counter battery fire against mortar, rocket or missile positions in the occupied territories so long as the IDF/IAF can prove to the international community that they took all reasonable precautions to avoid hitting, wounding and killing innocent bystanders.

The above is very different from the mass bombing and shelling of 2008/9 and 2024 that left many thousands of innocent Palestinians dead or wounded as part of a deliberate dehousing and anti-infrastructure campaign used for the collective punishment of Gazan Palestinians. The above is very different from IDF sniper teams and vehicles firing live ammunition into crowds of protesters in Gaza and killing/wounding protesting civilians, medics, reporters and bystanders as well as launching air raids at infrastructure targets (as opposed to Hamas command posts) all over Gaza. The above is very different from invading Palestinian homes to search the repeatedly or to set up ersatz command or observation posts in order to remind the Palestinians in the West Bank that they are powerless and unwanted and need to have their spirits crushed and be humiliated frequently.

Read the history of the creation of the State of Israel and you will find that every thing that the Arabs/Palestinians are accused of doing to Israelis, the Irgun, the Lehi, the Stern Gang, the Haganah, the Palmach, the Mossad and many senior leaders of the State of Israel's ruling class did to Arabs, to British authorities and to innocent diplomats. This has never been a black hat-white hat conflict and both sides have done and continue to do dreadful things to the other. Arabs/Palestinians did and do horrible crimes against Israelis and Israelis do horrible crimes against Arabs/Palestinians and those in foreign countries surrounding Israel.

The difference is the Israelis punish the Palestinians collectively for the crimes of their terrorists and resistance fighters killing many thousands of innocents too, but nobody punishes the State of Israel for its crimes and atrocities like shooting protesters or collectively punishing civilian populations under its occupation or land theft in breach of international law which the State of Israel agreed to follow when it joined the UN. That is why the State of Israel must be boycotted and sanctioned until it stops and punishes its own for the crimes the commit.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
He is also not telling the truth. Gaza is not occupied. As for war crimes, the day he pays equal attention to the systematic war crimes committed by the Palestinians, both against Israelis and against their own people, is the day he will be worth engaging on the Israeli side. Until then, it’s just more empty propaganda.


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CJ 2.0:

Gaza is occupied militarily. Gaza is only 8km wide and 40 km long. Israeli OPs, boats and aircraft control its airspace and coastline. The IDF and IAF regularly move into Gaza to use force on Gazans. Physical presence is not necessary in a world where sniper rifles can shoot deep into Gaza, where tank main guns can shoot across its width, where artillery can pound its every square meter under the watchful eyes of human, drone or aircraft spotters. The helicopters and aircraft of The IDF/IAF can be anywhere in Gaza delivering fire in less than two minutes if they are on patrol. Israel has effective military control of Gaza and thus occupies it. The 2005 withdrawal was just a shell game sleight of hand in order to give the a state of Israel an excuse to ignore its obligation as a military occupying power from having to protect the occupied population under its control.

Furthermore Gaza is part of the Palestinian Occupied Territories so as long as any part of those territories is occupied then all of them are occupied. You cannot break away Gaza from the whole of Palestine (of which it is a constituent part) to frame your argument in a more favourable way for your own case.

Oh and I am ignoring your string of earlier posts as my case was already laid out to another poster.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
He is also not telling the truth. Gaza is not occupied. As for war crimes, the day he pays equal attention to the systematic war crimes committed by the Palestinians, both against Israelis and against their own people, is the day he will be worth engaging on the Israeli side. Until then, it’s just more empty propaganda.


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CJ 2.0:

The Palestinians are not committing war crimes against Israelis or themselves. Hamas, Fatah, the Palestinian Authority and the PLO did and do those war crimes, not all Palestinians. But you demonise all Palestinians nonetheless. Likewise Israelis don't commit war crimes against Palestinians. The State of Israel, the IAF, the IDF and other institutions like radical settlers do. I am always careful to name the State of Israel in my allegations and not Israelis. No collective tarring is going on in my arguments. So, as usual, you're wrong again.

Evilroddy.
 
Fishking said:
Let me help you with getting a more wholistic picture from the really ****ty reporting you posted above.

"The Gaza Strip has been under blockade by Israel since June 2007, when Hamas took control of the territory, violently evicting the Palestinian Authority"

You do realize that the Gaza Strip borders more than just Israel, right? Why aren't they protesting at the Egyptian border? Why isn't the reporting mentioning the Egyptian blockade? Why is there no reporting on how Hamas is using the protesters as human shields? Why is there no reporting on Hamas using the protesters in an attempt to break into Israel and carry out mass attacks?

Hmmm...
Click to expand...

Fishking:

The Gazans are having a Right to Return protest and march campaign. They don't want to return to Egypt. They want to return to lands seized from their forefathers and to regain their stolen patrimonies inside The State of Israel. That's why they're not protesting along the Egyptian frontier or along the Mediterranean Sea coast.

The reporting in Canada regularly mentions the closure of the Egyptian-Gazan frontier.

Shoot the armed infiltrators when they breach the frontier, which the ODF has been doing. Don't the unarmed protesters, medics, reporters and bystanders who are still in Gaza. Tyres, wire cutters and sling stones do not rise to the level of arms when Israeli soldiers are hundreds of meters away behind fences and earthen berms, dug in and wearing protective gear.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
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Evilroddy said:
Fishking:

The Gazans are having a Right to Return protest and march campaign. They don't want to return to Egypt. They want to return to lands seized from their forefathers and to regain their stolen patrimonies inside The State of Israel. That's why they're not protesting along the Egyptian frontier or along the Mediterranean Sea coast.

The reporting in Canada regularly mentions the closure of the Egyptian-Gazan frontier.

Shoot the armed infiltrators when they breach the frontier, which the ODF has been doing. Don't the unarmed protesters, medics, reporters and bystanders who are still in Gaza. Tyres, wire cutters and sling stones do not rise to the level of arms when Israeli soldiers are hundreds of meters away behind fences and earthen berms, dug in and wearing protective gear.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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It appears you're no familiar with the tactics of the Palestinians and the reporting surrounding them. They make people up to seem like civilians or reporters and then use them as a prop to prove a false point.

Further, Israel is surrounded by enemies that want them destroyed. You act like they have luxuries to not defend themselves to the maximum degree. Hell, we had a few planes flown into buildings by a small group and have gone on to have multiple wars over it. Israel has actually been very restrained with what they are subjected to. No other country in the world would let pass what they do without completely taking them out.

So far as the right to return....there are a lot of Palestinians in Israel, with full citizenship. They sit in the Knesset and Supreme Court. Those who left, left because they lost a war of attempted genocide. I'm not sorry about that.
 
Fishking said:
It appears you're no familiar with the tactics of the Palestinians and the reporting surrounding them. They make people up to seem like civilians or reporters and then use them as a prop to prove a false point.

Further, Israel is surrounded by enemies that want them destroyed. You act like they have luxuries to not defend themselves to the maximum degree. Hell, we had a few planes flown into buildings by a small group and have gone on to have multiple wars over it. Israel has actually been very restrained with what they are subjected to. No other country in the world would let pass what they do without completely taking them out.

So far as the right to return....there are a lot of Palestinians in Israel, with full citizenship. They sit in the Knesset and Supreme Court. Those who left, left because they lost a war of attempted genocide. I'm not sorry about that.
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Fishking:

The vast majority of the people being wounded and killed during the Right to Return March protests are not Hamas operatives. They are desperate and angry people cooped up in a giant, open-air prison for the crime of voting the wrong way according to a hostile foreign power in 2006. They are also international reporters and medical aid workers. Hamas no doubt has many agents in the mix but the old Dominican idea of, "Kill them all and let God sort them out.", was wrong in the 13th Century and it is wrong in the 21st Century.

Israel is surrounded by enemies because of its behaviour. That excuse may have been legit in 1948 or 1973 but it doesn't float now. Isreal is by far the dominant regional military superpower and is armed with nuclear weapons, ballistic and cruise missiles, submarines to launch some of those cruise missiles, the strongest air force, the strongest land military and a very capable navy. Its neighbours are now at peace with it or are embroiled in either open or covert civil wars, except Iran which is being hamstrung by pro-Israel, US unilateral sanctions regime against Iran. Every country can now have some sort of a 9/11 event happen to it, be it buses and undergrounds, trains, ships or airplanes and yet only the State of Israel and its militaristic patron (the USA) are violating other countries' sovereignty and waging unnecessary wars and military interventions which cause the regional instability in which violent radical terrorism flourishes. The roots of al-Qaeda were grown in the US-sponsered Carter-Brezinski armed resistance which both caused and fought the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979. The roots of ISIL were laid in a war torn Syria and a wrecked Iraq both of which were direct results of US foreign policy. Likewise the Israeli policies of the last 70+ years have radicalised and deepened the divides between the peoples of the Levant as a policy of divide, rule and annex has unfolded over the last 3.5 decades.

Only two of those multiple wars were started by the Arabs. Israel started the rest and all the military interventions it chose to launch too.

So don't throw the "poor little Israel" argument at me because the State of Israel is about as vulnerable as a rabid porcupine in a nudist colony for blind haemophiliacs.

The right to return is an issue which won't go away, so the State of Israel will one day have to deal with it, even if it successfully displaces all non-Israeli Arsbs from the Palestinian Occupied Territories. Delaying just makes the problem worse while more Palestinian, other Arab and Israeli civilians suffer for the denial.

Making war is easy. Making peace is hard.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
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Evilroddy said:
Fishking:

The vast majority of the people being wounded and killed during the Right to Return March protests are not Hamas operatives. They are desperate and angry people cooped up in a giant, open-air prison for the crime of voting the wrong way according to a hostile foreign power in 2006. They are also international reporters and medical aid workers. Hamas no doubt has many agents in the mix but the old Dominican idea of, "Kill them all and let God sort them out.", was wrong in the 13th Century and it is wrong in the 21st Century.
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They aren't "all killed" otherwise you'd have tens of thousands of dead by now and not less than 200.
So first your'e deliberately misleading here, secondly you forget to mention that these are clashes organized by a brutal Islamist terror group and those people answer their calls, that it's always violent (100% of the times it occurs, every friday that is), and you forget to mention that the majority of those killed were indeed related to Hamas and that in the cases where a medic was killed for example (a volunteer, IIRC) she was killed by a ricochet bullet not aimed at her.

Israel is surrounded by enemies because of its behaviour. That excuse may have been legit in 1948 or 1973 but it doesn't float now. Isreal is by far the dominant regional military superpower and is armed with nuclear weapons, ballistic and cruise missiles, submarines to launch some of those cruise missiles, the strongest air force, the strongest land military and a very capable navy. Its neighbours are now at peace with it or are embroiled in either open or covert civil wars, except Iran which is being hamstrung by pro-Israel, US unilateral sanctions regime against Iran. Every country can now have some sort of a 9/11 event happen to it, be it buses and undergrounds, trains, ships or airplanes and yet only the State of Israel and its militaristic patron (the USA) are violating other countries' sovereignty and waging unnecessary wars and military interventions which cause the regional instability in which violent radical terrorism flourishes. The roots of al-Qaeda were grown in the US-sponsered Carter-Brezinski armed resistance which both caused and fought the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979. The roots of ISIL were laid in a war torn Syria and a wrecked Iraq both of which were direct results of US foreign policy. Likewise the Israeli policies of the last 70+ years have radicalised and deepened the divides between the peoples of the Levant as a policy of divide, rule and annex has unfolded over the last 3.5 decades.
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Because of its existence, not behavior. The fact that Israel is stronger wasn't always so, and it isn't relevant to whether or not it has the right to defend itself as you imply - being stronger doesn't make you less just than the opposition or less deserving to defend yourself.

Only two of those multiple wars were started by the Arabs. Israel started the rest and all the military interventions it chose to launch too.
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All of Israel's wars were started by its enemies with the exception of the Suez Crisis. Any other suggestion is clear history revisionism and there's no reason to pay attention to your (usual) deliberate attempts to twist history and reality.
It's just a game of "let's pretend" on your part, like your entire agenda it seems.

The right to return is an issue which won't go away, so the State of Israel will one day have to deal with it, even if it successfully displaces all non-Israeli Arsbs from the Palestinian Occupied Territories. Delaying just makes the problem worse while more Palestinian, other Arab and Israeli civilians suffer for the denial.
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It's something that the Arabs need to give up on since it's not going to happen.
The very fact that it's still mentioned shows how committed to peace their various leaderships are - which is not at all.
 
Apocalypse:

Pay attention, please. I didn't say "kill them all". That was the Medieval monk Arnaud Amalric. His words have become an historical and rhetorical commonplace for indescriminate and discriminate massacres the world over.

As to the rest of your post, the usual lies and historical denial so I won't be bothered to argue with you as you are beyond reason and debate.

Good bye.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
Apocalypse:

Pay attention, please. I didn't say "kill them all". That was the Medieval monk Arnaud Amalric. His words have become an historical and rhetorical commonplace for indescriminate and discriminate massacres the world over.

As to the rest of your post, the usual lies and historical denial so I won't be bothered to argue with you as you are beyond reason and debate.

Good bye.
Evilroddy.
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Fortunately I do not hold an agenda that constantly requires me to lie or to play games of let's pretend to hide reality or at least fail in desperately trying to avoid it.
 
Gazans suffer when they get violent. :lamo

I'm suppose to what? Care?

I don't care.
 
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