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Serious reading matter to help me study the Israeli Palestinian question.

CJ 2.0 said:
lol. whatever you say
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Your lack of intent to actually to back your claim speaks volumes and only indicates that my call on it is probably correct
 
Please excuse me bouncing into this thread but I find myself in a rather confused situation regarding Benny Morris. “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem.” 1947-1949 Benny Morris was one of the first books that was bought to my notice when I started to look at what I refer to as, “The Israel and Palestinian situation. Then today I bumped into the following heading on the Internet.

“Opinion Does the 'Father' of the 1948 Ethnic Cleansing Narrative Really Want to Recant His Words?” “The Benny Morris of 2016 seems to be doing what he once accused the 'old historians' of doing – interpreting history and downplaying Israeli misdeeds in order to defend Israel’s legitimacy.”

I would welcome some guidance on this matter.
 
LMB said:
Please excuse me bouncing into this thread but I find myself in a rather confused situation regarding Benny Morris. “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem.” 1947-1949 Benny Morris was one of the first books that was bought to my notice when I started to look at what I refer to as, “The Israel and Palestinian situation. Then today I bumped into the following heading on the Internet.

“Opinion Does the 'Father' of the 1948 Ethnic Cleansing Narrative Really Want to Recant His Words?” “The Benny Morris of 2016 seems to be doing what he once accused the 'old historians' of doing – interpreting history and downplaying Israeli misdeeds in order to defend Israel’s legitimacy.”

I would welcome some guidance on this matter.
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Benny Morris is imo a decent enough historian but a moral thug. The pressure put on people by the Israel lobby for expressing their views should not be underestimated either
 
LMB said:
I'm in my mid eighties and attractive as your suggestion is I lack the energy to put the necessary hours traveling into my old university, Oxford where I know there are superb facilities when I'm getting an extraordinary amount of suggestions from the Internet. So far I have managed to obtain a fantastic amount of information from the Internet but the Israeli Palestinian question is unlike anything I've ever studied before except perhaps what I will refer to as the, "Irish Question" in that one appears to be obliged to start by attempting to come to terms with what appear to be absolute opposites when looking at the beliefs of the two parties.
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Noam Chomsky; 'Gaza In Crisis' and 'On Palestine', the latter with Ilan Pappe, (also professor at my local University of Exeter).
 
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snakestretcher said:
Noam Chomsky; 'Gaza In Crisis' and 'On Palestine', the latter with Ilan Pappe, (also professor at my local University of Exeter).
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(Also completely open about his function as a propagandist)


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snakestretcher said:
Noam Chomsky; 'Gaza In Crisis' and 'On Palestine', the latter with Ilan Pappe, (also professor at my local University of Exeter).
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I am building quite a collection of Chomsky but don't have 'On Palestine', which I have just ordered. Many thanks.
 
LMB said:
I am building quite a collection of Chomsky but don't have 'On Palestine', which I have just ordered. Many thanks.
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Thought you were looking for objective books. Gather that's not really the case after all, given the "quite the collection of Chomsky".
 
CJ 2.0 said:
Thought you were looking for objective books. Gather that's not really the case after all, given the "quite the collection of Chomsky".
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I am trying desperately to be objective in my attempt to understand the Israeli - Palestinian situation but it’s a difficult task. Having said that I'm obliged to say that this subject is the most depressing field of study I have ever faced in my 83 years of life in that it is infected by the most vicious vindictive and aggressive partisan-ism I have ever met a classic example is the quote above which appears to me to be questioning the objectivity of Chomsky. I have studied a number of subjects in my life but had very little in my study that could answer questions relating to what I refer to as, "the current Israeli - Palestinian situation. As a result the first task that I set myself was to collect some reading material and I started this search by asking for suggestions in this forum and a number of suggestions were offered and from those suggestions and the accompanying Bibliography’s my list of books grew.
If I was studying this subject at university I would have the luxury of a subject description, a syllabus and tutors offering me support but I have had to find my own way. It will not be easy to select what everyone could accept as “Objective” books so my next task was to attempt to determine for myself which of the books I found were objective which will be a difficult task. Having said that I have to believe that “truth” is definable and objectivity is achievable.
I have started looking for reviews of books that I had found and even some of the books that found me which I will explain about later. The result is a collection of reviews easily divided into critical and supportive. So far I have found close to 2000 pages of them that I have got to analyse. From that analysis I hope to create a series of Titles that I will be able to use to explore before I even attempt to look for conclusions. You may wish to offer suggestions as to what titles I should consider.
I said above, “some of the books that found me” and by that I mean the experience I had in an British South Coast Secondhand Book Shop. It is the most untidy secondhand bookshop I have ever seen, so untidy to actually present a danger to anyone who entered it but it was within that secondhand bookshop that I found four books by Chomsky and I am yet to look for reviews on them.
 
LMB said:
You are absolutely correct as I discovered when I ran a search through my notes. Interestingly not only are they both influential writers they also appear to often have differing views.
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One of them tempered his position over time. Not the facts but the inapt of his work.

Mamy of the findings of the new historians have made it into Israeli high school curriculum and some apologies were made for the nakba.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
(Also completely open about his function as a propagandist)


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Whilst I don't doubt you would you be so kind as to point me towards some evidence on your statement?
 
LMB said:
Whilst I don't doubt you would you be so kind as to point me towards some evidence on your statement?
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In his 2004 book A History of Modern Palestine: One Land Two Peoples, Pappe wrote:

"My bias is apparent despite the desire of my peers that I stick to facts and the "truth" when reconstructing past realities. I view any such construction as vain and presumptuous...."

Similarly in 1999 he said in Le Soir:

Some colleague told me I ruined our cause by admitting my ideological platform. Why? Everybody in Israel and Palestine has an ideological platform. Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truth seekers.

So you see, objectively speaking, Pappe is an ideological hack, far more interested in promoting his ideological positions than in objective reality. You should see what Morris wrote about Pappe in "The Liar as Hero"

I have made some suggestions but the best current read on the situation you are facing is called Industry of Lies: Media, Academia, and the Israeli-Arab Conflict by Ben Yemeni. It has a focus on underlying facts, yes, but is actually directly on point for you in that its focus is on the objectivity of different writers you might be looking at for "balance". And written by someone who believes in a two-state solution and doesn't seem like a radical right wing Israeli ideologue (he writes for an Israeli paper critical of Netanyahu, views himself as being from the Israeli peace camp, met with Arafat in Tunis, is a long-time believer in a two-state solution and that Israel should have the same right of self-determination as the Palestinians, and opposes settlements in the WB and Gaza). So yes, Israeli but the sort of middle of the road Israeli that can't really be demonized by normal people (that said, the radical left demonizes everyone who is even slightly less radical, so mileage may vary)

This sort of review is important because when you actually look at some of the pillars of the anti-Israel narrative, they are more partisan ideologues than actual historians and they place little value on objective truth. So the illusion of balance when they are in the mix is really a "balance" between people looking to understand facst and people who don't care about facts and are looking to push an ideological agenda.

There are two books that are sort of meta that you need to read before getting into the actual histories. The first is Industry of Lies (per above). The second is "Catch the Jew", which is written by a gonzo-style journalist who pretends to be at various stages a typical European, a German, an Israeli, an Arab, a left-winger etc to visit and speak with as many people in the area as possible, including regular people, lower level Bureaucrats, politicians, movers and shakers, volunteers and NGOs. It's actually a really fun read, but will give you some insight into the various attitudes and motives of those participating in the space you are trying to understand, while managing to cut through and into pretty much every group participating in the conflict.
 
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CJ 2.0 said:
In his 2004 book A History of Modern Palestine: One Land Two Peoples, Pappe wrote:

"My bias is apparent despite the desire of my peers that I stick to facts and the "truth" when reconstructing past realities. I view any such construction as vain and presumptuous...."

Similarly in 1999 he said in Le Soir:

Some colleague told me I ruined our cause by admitting my ideological platform. Why? Everybody in Israel and Palestine has an ideological platform. Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truth seekers.

So you see, objectively speaking, Pappe is an ideological hack, far more interested in promoting his ideological positions than in objective reality. You should see what Morris wrote about Pappe in "The Liar as Hero"

I have made some suggestions but the best current read on the situation you are facing is called Industry of Lies: Media, Academia, and the Israeli-Arab Conflict by Ben Yemeni. It has a focus on underlying facts, yes, but is actually directly on point for you in that its focus is on the objectivity of different writers you might be looking at for "balance". And written by someone who believes in a two-state solution and doesn't seem like a radical right wing Israeli ideologue (he writes for an Israeli paper critical of Netanyahu, views himself as being from the Israeli peace camp, met with Arafat in Tunis, is a long-time believer in a two-state solution and that Israel should have the same right of self-determination as the Palestinians, and opposes settlements in the WB and Gaza). So yes, Israeli but the sort of middle of the road Israeli that can't really be demonized by normal people (that said, the radical left demonizes everyone who is even slightly less radical, so mileage may vary)

This sort of review is important because when you actually look at some of the pillars of the anti-Israel narrative, they are more partisan ideologues than actual historians and they place little value on objective truth. So the illusion of balance when they are in the mix is really a "balance" between people looking to understand facst and people who don't care about facts and are looking to push an ideological agenda.

There are two books that are sort of meta that you need to read before getting into the actual histories. The first is Industry of Lies (per above). The second is "Catch the Jew", which is written by a gonzo-style journalist who pretends to be at various stages a typical European, a German, an Israeli, an Arab, a left-winger etc to visit and speak with as many people in the area as possible, including regular people, lower level Bureaucrats, politicians, movers and shakers, volunteers and NGOs. It's actually a really fun read, but will give you some insight into the various attitudes and motives of those participating in the space you are trying to understand.
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Its rather late in England so I may be mistaken but I thought we were discussing Chomsky.
 
LMB said:
Its rather late in England so I may be mistaken but I thought we were discussing Chomsky.
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Sorry the bracketed comment was about Pappe and I had responded (also in brackets) talking about Pappe. That was then picked up and off we went. Pappe os the open propagandist. Chomsky is more of a pretend I’m being objective kind of guy.


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LMB said:
I am trying desperately to be objective in my attempt to understand the Israeli - Palestinian situation but it’s a difficult task.
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good luck! I tried that once, too. It made me normally avoiding to write in the Israel / Palestine Subforum. Very quickly you become a Nazi (very easy for a german ;o) ) - or a left leaning asshole (sometimes in the same sentence) if you hav another stance.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
Sorry the bracketed comment was about Pappe and I had responded (also in brackets) talking about Pappe. That was then picked up and off we went. Pappe os the open propagandist. Chomsky is more of a pretend I’m being objective kind of guy. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I had a suspicion that something like that had happened in that I was given the hint from a book sitting on the top of a small pile of books next to me, "Gaza in Crisis" Noam Chomsky & Ilan Pappe. I find you comments interesting in that they may well be true but its simply not something one finds generally being said in reviews of English History to the extent that one finds in Jewish history. Having said that such comments are helpful to anyone new to the subject.
 
LMB said:
I had a suspicion that something like that had happened in that I was given the hint from a book sitting on the top of a small pile of books next to me, "Gaza in Crisis" Noam Chomsky & Ilan Pappe. I find you comments interesting in that they may well be true but its simply not something one finds generally being said in reviews of English History to the extent that one finds in Jewish history. Having said that such comments are helpful to anyone new to the subject.
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There are lots of reasons why Israel gets way more attention than other far worse conflicts.

In addition to the fact that one side are Jews, we have attraction from the western left, which is generally anti-american, anti “imperial”, anti “colonial” and anti western in general (all of those are just variants of the same thing, since the only imperialism and colonialism they oppose is conduct that they can attribute to the west ).

The Europeans have a moral fixation on Israel both because of the holocaust and because their top down leadership threw their hat in with the Arabs after the oil embargo and sought to be eaten last by trying to ingratiate themselves with Arab world despots by feeding hostility to Israel to their population.

And the Soviets viewed anti-Israel hostility as a key to buttressing their influence over the “non-aligned” countries during the cold war and their propaganda was extremely effective at infiltrating into European and leftist discourse and thought.

Honestly, if you are going to read anything, you should read Catch the Jew. I actually started reading it again yesterday cause it’s a great read and I think it will give you more insight into all of this - both historical and the noise around the issue - than any other book. It os one guy visiting everyone he can, talking to them, laughing with them, eating their food, and noting where what we hear and read doesn’t align with what is actually happening.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
There are lots of reasons why Israel gets way more attention than other far worse conflicts.

In addition to the fact that one side are Jews, we have attraction from the western left, which is generally anti-american, anti “imperial”, anti “colonial” and anti western in general (all of those are just variants of the same thing, since the only imperialism and colonialism they oppose is conduct that they can attribute to the west ).

The Europeans have a moral fixation on Israel both because of the holocaust and because their top down leadership threw their hat in with the Arabs after the oil embargo and sought to be eaten last by trying to ingratiate themselves with Arab world despots by feeding hostility to Israel to their population.

And the Soviets viewed anti-Israel hostility as a key to buttressing their influence over the “non-aligned” countries during the cold war and their propaganda was extremely effective at infiltrating into European and leftist discourse and thought.

Honestly, if you are going to read anything, you should read Catch the Jew. I actually started reading it again yesterday cause it’s a great read and I think it will give you more insight into all of this - both historical and the noise around the issue - than any other book. It os one guy visiting everyone he can, talking to them, laughing with them, eating their food, and noting where what we hear and read doesn’t align with what is actually happening.
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and it is tht way because you say so?

I read it on your proposal and for me it sounds like propaganda at it´s best.....
 
CJ 2.0 said:
There are lots of reasons why Israel gets way more attention than other far worse conflicts.

In addition to the fact that one side are Jews, we have attraction from the western left, which is generally anti-american, anti “imperial”, anti “colonial” and anti western in general (all of those are just variants of the same thing, since the only imperialism and colonialism they oppose is conduct that they can attribute to the west ).

The Europeans have a moral fixation on Israel both because of the holocaust and because their top down leadership threw their hat in with the Arabs after the oil embargo and sought to be eaten last by trying to ingratiate themselves with Arab world despots by feeding hostility to Israel to their population.

And the Soviets viewed anti-Israel hostility as a key to buttressing their influence over the “non-aligned” countries during the cold war and their propaganda was extremely effective at infiltrating into European and leftist discourse and thought.

Honestly, if you are going to read anything, you should read Catch the Jew. I actually started reading it again yesterday cause it’s a great read and I think it will give you more insight into all of this - both historical and the noise around the issue - than any other book. It os one guy visiting everyone he can, talking to them, laughing with them, eating their food, and noting where what we hear and read doesn’t align with what is actually happening.
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I would suggest that there is one simple reason why Israel gets way more attention than other far worse conflicts. Because of the way Palestinians have been deposed and then treated with such open arrogance in full view of the media.
I did have a look at, “Catch the Jew” but I had difficulty in finding any serious reviews and those that I did find appeared to be embarrassed by it. Then I came to the “Tablet” Book Reviews headed, “Tuvia Tenenbom Is a Weak, Insecure, Blustery Jew.” But I even found that confusing.
All in all the book reviews I found created a feeling of unpleasantness in me and I would have to spend a week or more reading the book to gain a fuller understanding of it and I have better books to read such as, “The Story of the Jews” Simon Schama.
 
german hick said:
and it is tht way because you say so?

I read it on your proposal and for me it sounds like propaganda at it´s best.....
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Wut?


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LMB said:
I would suggest that there is one simple reason why Israel gets way more attention than other far worse conflicts. Because of the way Palestinians have been deposed and then treated with such open arrogance in full view of the media.
I did have a look at, “Catch the Jew” but I had difficulty in finding any serious reviews and those that I did find appeared to be embarrassed by it. Then I came to the “Tablet” Book Reviews headed, “Tuvia Tenenbom Is a Weak, Insecure, Blustery Jew.” But I even found that confusing.
All in all the book reviews I found created a feeling of unpleasantness in me and I would have to spend a week or more reading the book to gain a fuller understanding of it and I have better books to read such as, “The Story of the Jews” Simon Schama.
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Trust me. It is cheap on kindle and really entertaining. Then you can get all serious in trying to balance various biased sources. It is the most serious unserious book you could read if you actually want a bit of a sense of what is going on.

As for your “one reason”, that’s exactly my point on Industry of Lies. Your entire perception is biased by the lens made available to you. As one tiny little point the Palestinians have a majority population in territories very close to those they lost in 1948 and many other population groups in the 20th century had more significant displacements to different territories, let alone different parts of the same territory.

So maybe make Industry of Lies your number 2?

But seriously, Catch the Jew as #1. Don’t worry about various reviewers getting their panties all in a bunch since he goes after all of their sacred cows (which he does, left and right, arab and jew and christian and athiest alike). In a conflict where everyone has a side, someone who comes in and calls everyone as he sees them makes a whole bunch of enemies and not a lot of friends. And in this conflict enemies don’t write good reviews...


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CJ 2.0 said:
Trust me. It is cheap on kindle and really entertaining. Then you can get all serious in trying to balance various biased sources. It is the most serious unserious book you could read if you actually want a bit of a sense of what is going on.

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CJ 2.0 said:
Trust me. It is cheap on kindle and really entertaining. Then you can get all serious in trying to balance various biased sources. It is the most serious unserious book you could read if you actually want a bit of a sense of what is going on.

As for your “one reason”, that’s exactly my point on Industry of Lies. Your entire perception is biased by the lens made available to you. As one tiny little point the Palestinians have a majority population in territories very close to those they lost in 1948 and many other population groups in the 20th century had more significant displacements to different territories, let alone different parts of the same territory.

So maybe make Industry of Lies your number 2?

But seriously, Catch the Jew as #1. Don’t worry about various reviewers getting their panties all in a bunch since he goes after all of their sacred cows (which he does, left and right, arab and jew and christian and athiest alike). In a conflict where everyone has a side, someone who comes in and calls everyone as he sees them makes a whole bunch of enemies and not a lot of friends. And in this conflict enemies don’t write good reviews...


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This the first review I found said, "The Industry of Lies, he exposes the deliberate fakery of the anti-Israel propaganda industry." The quote reminded of the saying, “Pot calling the kettle black.”
 
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