Hamas being Hamas - Sending School children into harms way

Fledermaus said:

Hamas cancels classes in Gaza to send children to 'riot' against Israel, IDF says

Israel Defense Forces said Tuesday the militant group Hamas is canceling classes in the Gaza Strip on Wednesday to send children to “riot” violently against Israel.

“IDF intelligence can confirm that Hamas has cancelled schools in Gaza tomorrow in order to send the children to participate in violent riots against Israel,” the military tweeted, adding that Hamas distributed the message on social media, television and the radio.

Recent videos linked to Gaza television have urged children to "martyr" themselves against the Jewish state, according to the Middle East Media Research Institute. The press monitoring and analysis organization included a Gaza TV Media YouTube account which posted a video last month of a small Jordanian boy volunteering to go to Jerusalem and die as a martyr.

Hamas cancels classes in Gaza to send children to '''riot''' against Israel, IDF says | Fox News



Yay.... Martyrdom for children. The Hamas way!

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snakestretcher said:

The IDF and Fox say? Are you serious? Do you have anything slightly less partisan to regale us with? This is the same IDF who complained about being censured for committing war crimes, and petitioned the courts to be allowed to commit them!
MEMRI, whom you cite, is an Israeli propaganda organisation, run by Israeli ex-military intelligence staff. They have one purpose: to attack Muslim countries via the media at every opportunity, just like Goebbels did with Jews. They were responsible for the mistranslated and debunked Ahmadinejad speech. You want to take the word of these people as gospel?

Lost in Translation | FAIR

Selective Memri | World news | The Guardian

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Fledermaus said:

The messenger has survived the assassination attempt.

Have you anything to add about Hamas once again using Palestinian children as cannon fodder? As martyrs?

Yes or no?

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snakestretcher said:

No, I don't rely on propaganda organisations for facts. Why do you?

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Fledermaus said:

Facts are facts.

If you can't or won't discuss the martyrdom of children by Hamas then why post in this thread?

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snakestretcher said:

MEMRI doesn't deal in facts so there's nothing to discuss. Was Josef Goebbels' propaganda ministry dealing in facts about Jews? No, and MEMRI doesn't deal in facts about Palestine either. They deal in propaganda. Propaganda is not factual but designed with only one purpose-to pour scorn on a political opponent using lies, distortion, mistranslation and anything else they can think of. You know this.

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Fledermaus said:

You are free to leave the thread if you cannot handle the facts in this case.

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snakestretcher said:

Yes, and you are free to keep your head buried, ostrich-like, in the face of real facts which you deny, as always. According to you Israel is the eternal victim, and the IDF are flawless, squeaky clean, never committed war crimes, never acted in any way other than with saint-like purity. You, sir, need a dose of reality-not what some military intelligence propaganda organisation feeds you.
I note that your only response, so far, is to avoid discussion while insisting that propaganda is factual. That, sir, is fundamentally disingenuous and you'll never win an argument if that 'source' is what you rely on for your 'facts'.

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Fledermaus said:

When have I stated the IDF is flawless? Or that the IDF has never committed crimes/war crimes? Or that they are "saintly"?

You are lying. Blatantly.

If you cannot handle the facts LEAVE THE THREAD.

THIS thread is about Hamas martyring children. A very real thing.

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snakestretcher said:

No, what you call a 'very real thing' is blatant propaganda. I, however, have on numerous occasions presented genuine facts from the Israeli High Court regarding the IDF using Palestinian children as human shields. No doubt you will also deny that was happening, and dismiss the practise as not being a war crime, as defined by the Geneva Conventions.
Have a great day; I can't have an adult discussion with someone with a closed mind.

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Fledermaus said:

The IDF did use children. Did. Past tense. Back then. Not now. Then. It is ILLEGAL now.

Do you not understand past tense?

Hamas is placing children in harms way. Intentionally. Now. Not then. Now.

Why won't you discuss what is happening now?

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Evilroddy said:

Fledermaus:

What or who is endangering these children? Is it the Hamas organisation which sends them home from school hoping they will protest or the State of Israel's snipers and urban assault vehicles which will wound or kill them? The blame lies squarely in both camps. Picking just one side out for admonition is not a balanced analysis of the complete dynamic at work in Palestine today.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

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Fledermaus said:

I don't think the IDF let Palestinian children out of school to protest.

Yeah, this one can be assigned to one entity.

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Evilroddy said:

Fledermaus:

I agree. The IDF don't let the kiddies out of school to protest. That's on the Palestinian parents heads if they cooperate with Hamas and of course on Hamas as well. But the IDF as agents of the State of Israel do shoot at the kids, do wound them and do kill them when they see them at the protest. Therefore there is shared culpability here.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

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Apocalypse said:

The IDF has orders to prevent attacks on the fence, invasions into Israel, throwing firebombs and explosives and committing attacks on Israeli citizens. Not to "shoot at children when they see them at a protest". It isn't even a protest, it's terrorist organized clashes.

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Evilroddy said:

Apocalypse:

And yet the Palestinian children are dying and being maimed by Israeli bullets and shells, while many such shot children were not near the fence nor armed when shot. The Israeli spotters, snipers and gunners are shooting into Gaza at people who are protesting in their own land against the continuing injustice of having their lands stolen out from under them and their lives made miserable by a protracted seige of Gaza and the systematic theft of their land in the West Bank by a foreign occupying power's military. So I think both sides bear responsibility for what is happening along the Gaza fence. Your attempts in this and other threads to dehumanise the Palestinians by calling them for example "scum" or as your former justice minister called them "snakes" does not make their killing and maiming legitimate. There is no doubt that Hamas are the bad guys in this situation but so is the State of Israel, and it's agents the IDF and the IAF. The killing of children at protests is not an easy position to defend and is morally wrong. You are not the good guys in this instance.

Evilroddy.

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Apocalypse said:

I take care not to dehumanize anyone and I never did, otherwise it'll make my positions no different morally to yours and this is something I'm trying to avoid.
What you refer to as me using the word 'scum' is in reference to terrorists and jihadists of course and no one else. So clearly you're not being honest here.

The violence on the border is not a protest, when people want to protest something they don't try to invade another country and don't throw firebombs and both are happening in every single time they show up at the border.
It's clashes orchestrated by the Islamist terrorist group of Hamas. They're the ones who send people there and they're the ones who control the violence.

The IDF targets violent attackers. The overwhelming majority of those who were killed in the border clashes were actual members of terror groups, so this is obvious.
If any innocent civilian who showed up to the Hamas event but did not take part in the violence was hurt as a result of Israeli shooting targeting terrorists and violent attackers, that's tragic, but there is clearly no intention and the blame is with those who brought innocent civilians to where terrorists are clashing with soldiers who protect the citizens of their country.

I don't like terms such as "good guys" and "bad guys" but it's obvious where the moral high ground is.

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Evilroddy said:

Apocalypse:

So you decide that someone is a terrorist and then it's okay to dehumanise them. No, sorry. That does not fly. See your comments in posts #72 and #77 in the following thread.

Israeli soldiers shoot blindfolded, handcuffed Palestinian as he tried to flee

When asked to back up your claim that persons are terrorists or jihadists you didn't. You just declared them so and then proceeded to dehumanise them.

As to your twisted rationalisation for shooting young protesters who are protesting outside of Israel, that is a sham and you know it. The IDF is shooting these protesters including children. They (the IDF officers and spotters/snipers) are making the choice/decision to shoot, not anyone else and so bear the responsibility and the culpability for those decisions and actions. I was just following orders is not an excuse and hasn't been since 1945. The IDF are killing people outside of Israel who are protesting, sometimes riotously, and that is the cold, hard facts of the matter. Does the US systematically shoot illegal immigrants trying to break fences or climb them? No. Those fences are in US territory. Much of the fencing and the exclusion zones in Gaza are on Gazan territory where IDF forces shoot people for protesting on their own territory. So as I said, you are not the good guys here and nor is Hamas. Both the State of Israel and Hamas are locked in a wicked and murderous symbiosis that feeds on the lives of Palestinians for greed, for faith and for nationalism. A pox on both your leadership's until you both stop the killing and take responsibility for the killing which has already occurred.

Evilroddy.

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Apocalypse said:

The IDF however targets violent attackers. It has no orders to target civilians, so there's no "I was just following orders" here and no such orders at all. On the contrary, the IDF spends a lot of efforts minimizing the civilian casualties there, otherwise we'd have a hell lot more casualties in general and the overwhelming majority of them would not be terrorist as is the case. The moral high ground is clear here.
And again these are not protests. People are answering calls from Islamic terrorists to come to violent border clashes.

We both know what really happens. I don't know why you willingly stick to lies so much. Demonizing the IDF soldiers who are there defending millions of innocents by fending off attackers wave after wave, pretending that the situation is of peaceful protests and that the attackers are victims and that soldiers are deliberately targeting innocents (For what reason exactly? This part is always missing from your dehumanization campaigns) isn't going to change reality.

Thank you however for showing that the "scum" was in reference to an arrested jihadist and not to any innocent civilian, you were being dishonest.
Terrorists and jihadists who throw rocks at people are scum. Innocent people on either side are not. Feel free to continue these empty accusations in the appropriate thread.

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Evilroddy said:

Apocalypse:

You are beyond reason and beyond morality in the "logic bubble" you have created to justify what the State of Israel is doing on the Gaza frontier with respect to these protests. No one deserves to be killed for throwing rocks or tearing down fences erected by a foreign power on their own land. And one day I look forward to seeing Israeli civilian and military leaders sanding beside Hamas terrorist leaders in the docket to answer for their crimes, if not in Israel then before an international tribunal. Then the world will see your logic bubble pop, the hasbara evaporate and the monstrosity of this policy will be shown and discredited before the whole world. Israel is behaving like a Serbia of the Middle East and a legal day of reckoning will come.

Evilroddy.

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Apocalypse said:

I take care not to dehumanize anyone and I never did, otherwise it'll make my positions no different morally to yours and this is something I'm trying to avoid.
What you refer to as me using the word 'scum' is in reference to terrorists and jihadists of course and no one else. So clearly you're not being honest here.

The violence on the border is not a protest, when people want to protest something they don't try to invade another country and don't throw firebombs and both are happening in every single time they show up at the border.
It's clashes orchestrated by the Islamist terrorist group of Hamas. They're the ones who send people there and they're the ones who control the violence.

The IDF targets violent attackers. The overwhelming majority of those who were killed in the border clashes were actual members of terror groups, so this is obvious.
If any innocent civilian who showed up to the Hamas event but did not take part in the violence was hurt as a result of Israeli shooting targeting terrorists and violent attackers, that's tragic, but there is clearly no intention and the blame is with those who brought innocent civilians to where terrorists are clashing with soldiers who protect the citizens of their country.

I don't like terms such as "good guys" and "bad guys" but it's obvious where the moral high ground is.

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snakestretcher said:

How else is an occupied people supposed to protest; write a polite letter to Netanyahu perhaps? I know exactly where the moral high ground lies, and it is not with a belligerent occupying force or the 'one shot, two kills' war crime-committing IDF. If you treat people like cattle don't expect anything different in return.
By the way, your 'justification' excuse is depressingly predictable. Nobody believes Israel or the IDF any longer, so 'justify' all you like; you'll be met with deaf ears.

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Apocalypse said:

No one is treated like cattle, there are terrorists there and civilians deserve to be protected.
The moral high ground lies with those who protect civilians and who do not target civilians, not with those who do the opposite by both endangering their own civilians on purpose and targeting the other side's civilians on purpose.

I honestly don't know why you think your ears being deaf or not matters to me so much, your radical position against the moral values of the civilized world was made crystal clear.

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snakestretcher said:

Where's your 'moral high ground' here? Who is civilized?

YouTube

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