Should the Isreali justification be applied to other nations

spud_meister said:

Israel is a nation predicated on maintaining power in the hands of a particular ethnic people. the justification for this is a dispossessed people have a right to rule their own nation on their historical territory, after having faced genocide. My question is, should this be applied to other nations where an ethnic group has faced genocide and had their lands taken?

In the US, Native Americans faced persecution and dispossession, so should the US implement policies to ensure the non-Native American population can't rise above 20%, and that most positions of power are held by Native Americans? What policies would people who think Israeli ethno-nationalism is justified like to see in nations where the indigenous inhabitants have faced dispossession and genocide, such as the US, Australia or Canada, in order to restore the indigenous population in a way that is justified by Israel?

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LeoVlaming said:

I guess your blatant anti-semitism doesn't count as racism to you then.

Seriously, "rabid" seems to be a very appropriately chosen part of your name.

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Wow, Spud, it took until post #18 until someone dropped an anti-Semitism allegation, I'm actually impressed with the restraint shown! :lol: :roll:

In answer to your question, though, no, I don't think it would work anywhere else, primarily because clearly it's not working in Israel.

OlNate said:

Wow, Spud, it took until post #18 until someone dropped an anti-Semitism allegation, I'm actually impressed with the restraint shown! :lol: :roll:

In answer to your question, though, no, I don't think it would work anywhere else, primarily because clearly it's not working in Israel.

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Well OlNate , the record was actually post #17 but no prizes for guessing the source

LeoVlaming said:

Your post is based on several false premises.

First of all, the idea of self-determination for nations is not something that is particular to Israel. It is actually a very widespread general principle that forms the basis for many of the current nation-states. The call for a national Jewish state actually goes back to long before the Holocaust.

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Nations have traditionally been made up by the unification of different religious and ethnic groups within a certain area with the view to create a nation state. That is not true of Israel. It's " citizens " occupy the entire globe with some of them actually rejecting the state as being representative of them

Second, your premise that Israel is a racist state in which all power and participation is reserved to one ethnic group is patently false. Jews come from several distinct ethnic backgrounds. Moreover, a substantial part of the citizens of Israel are not Jews bur Palestinians, Druze, etc.

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There doesn't have to be a situation " in which all power and participation is reserved to one ethnic group " for racism or racial discrimination to exist or even flourish. And we should be judging Israeli government actions in the context of the territory it controls which includes the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Overall , even for " Arab citizens of Israel " who are faced with a whole host of laws that discriminate against them ( The Adalah database of 50 discriminatory laws in Israel ) there can be no doubt that there is widespread and institutional discrimination against the Arabs by the state of Israel

Third, your comparison of the Holocaust to what happened with the native population of North America is ridiculous. The number of native North Americans actively killed by colonists over a period of more than 200 years runs into the thousands (a few ten thousand at most), probably not much more than the number of native North americans killed by other native North Americans or than the number of colonists killed by native North Americans during that period and a very tiny fraction of the number of Native Americans who died from natural causes, i.e. lack of resistance to new diseases.

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I don't think the Holocaust and the forced dispossession and displacement of indigenous peoples in the colonialist age are the same but I also think it matters not who or what was doing the killing in that process , an intended process. The new settlers had the intention of displacing and dispossessing the residents of a certain region and on that score I think the two cases are very alike. Also there is an inherent racism in thinking your group has the right to displace and dispossess in the first place

LeoVlaming said:

Forgot to take your little pill today?

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Because he disagrees with your POV ? Really ? Wow.

oneworld2 said:

Because he disagrees with your POV ? Really ? Wow.

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That's not why and you're capable of seeing what was going in post #14. Total meltdown, rabid attacks. Ridiculous.

oneworld2 said:

Nations have traditionally been made up by the unification of different religious and ethnic groups within a certain area with the view to create a nation state. That is not true of Israel. It's " citizens " occupy the entire globe with some of them actually rejecting the state as being representative of them

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Not "traditionally", the right to self-determination is still a thing even today. Even if you deny it specifically for one nation.
And if there is a Jewish person out there who rejects Israel it doesn't make it something that isn't the nation state of the Jewish people. That's not how things work. A Dutch guy living in Miami saying the Netherlands ain't his homeland isn't going to change the status of the Netherlands as the nation state of the Dutch people. The identity of the state isn't going to change. The national anthem isn't going to be changed because of that. The very notion is ridiculous.

There doesn't have to be a situation " in which all power and participation is reserved to one ethnic group " for racism or racial discrimination to exist or even flourish. And we should be judging Israeli government actions in the context of the territory it controls which includes the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Overall , even for " Arab citizens of Israel " who are faced with a whole host of laws that discriminate against them ( The Adalah database of 50 discriminatory laws in Israel ) there can be no doubt that there is widespread and institutional discrimination against the Arabs by the state of Israel

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Arab citizens have full rights in Israel. Fully equal citizens. Obviously far more rights than in any surrounding Arab nation.
The list you posted from an antisemitic hatesite (Mondoweiss) was already debunked here several times. It's an empty claim, they talk about how those who served in the IDF can get incentives in their studies and the like, pretty nonsensical accusations as Arabs serve and can serve in the IDF if they choose to. If you wish to discuss a specific law do so, posting such lists is meaningless and serves to show your ignorance.

Apocalypse said:

You're extremely ignorant about the subject.
The Jews are an ethnoreligious people. Someone like Ivanka Trump is religiously Jewish but not in her ethnicity and yet eligible due to the law to become citizen if she wishes.
The law is about nationhood, not ethnicity.

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Try to debate without the resort to smears if you can. I know you like to derail things this way but it's actually a sure sign you don't want a decent exchange of views to take place which is what this space is supposed to engender

The Law of Return is the classic example of the very racial/ethnic discrimination you claim does not exist wrt the state of Israel.

It is a law reserved SOLELY for Jewish people who may have had zero connection to the place , have never visited the place but an Arab whose entire family lived there up until 1967 and for hundreds of years prior to that are denied the right of return on the very grounds of ethno-religious differences

oneworld2 said:

Well OlNate , the record was actually post #17 but no prizes for guessing the source

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As usual you enter a thread with the intention of throwing personal attacks before anything else.
Please post on the subject or do not post at all. Discussing a poster instead of discussing the subject is never helpful.

oneworld2 said:

Try to debate without the resort to smears if you can. I know you like to derail things this way but it's actually a sure sign you don't want a decent exchange of views to take place which is what this space is supposed to engender

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That's rich.

The Law of Return is the classic example of the very racial/ethnic discrimination you claim does not exist wrt the state of Israel.

It is a law reserved SOLELY for Jewish people who may have had zero connection to the place , have never visited the place but an Arab whose entire family lived there up until 1967 and for hundreds of years prior to that are denied the right of return on the very grounds of ethno-religious differences

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There are people from all around the world who are eligible to citizenship in countries without ever being there or being connected to the place. It's entirely up to the nation to decide who gets citizenship and why. It's completely meaningless to try and discuss what should grant a person citizenship and what shouldn't in what place. It's not up to anyone but the nation to decide. Is there only one ethnicity gaining citizenship through this law? No. All ethnic groups may become citizens through that law, so the argument holds no water.

LeoVlaming said:

Jews come from several distinct racial backgrounds. Israel numbers among its citizens a fairly large percentage of non-Jews (far larger than for example the percentage of non-Germans in Germany, non-French in France, non-Italians in Italy, non-Turks in Turkey, non-Poles in Poland, non-Chinese in China, non-Japanese in Japan, ...). And finally, following your logic, where is your "rabid" condemnation of the Palestinian claim for a Palestinian state?

Seriously, your racist hatred is blinding you in the most ludicrous way.

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What is this utter nonsense

The reason Israel has around 20% Arabs making up the population is purely down to the fact that its leaderships failed in their bid to get rid of them all. They called it " transfer " but the modern term that encapsulates it better is banned from use in this forum so cannot be used. They got rid of as many as they could by chasing them out or not letting them back in circa 1947-49 and then the dumped around another 2-3 00,000 more of them outside the gates in 1967.

" None Germans in Germany " ??........... the difference being in Germany that your ethno-religious make-up doesn't stop you being German and doesn't affect your status. If you were born there you are German , note not Arab German or Muslim German , just German with the same rights as any other German . Same for all the other countries you mentioned

Additionally , if you are trying to separate white Anglo-Saxon citizens as being true Germans and the other as recent arrivals that were assimilated , which it looks like you are , then the recent arrivals that are being assimilated in the region are the Jewish people coming in from all over the globe and the true residents are the Arabs that are being kept out by them.

You are making a better case for the people you are opposing here than we are making for ourselves lol

Apocalypse said:

As usual you enter a thread with the intention of throwing personal attacks before anything else.
Please post on the subject or do not post at all. Discussing a poster instead of discussing the subject is never helpful.

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I " entered the thread" to correct something that was incorrect , there was no personal attack so stop playing the victim when it is obvious your are the perpetrator .

All's you and the other antisemite card dependent poster here have done is colour your posts with ongoing sand sustained personal attacks. It's all you EVER do in fact

ecofarm said:

Native American tribes have full control over membership, leadership and their land. NA land is not subject to state law, only federal law, and the state has no jurisdiction. They have their own courts, their own cops and law beyond federal they make.

So, yeah, they have that.

Indian reservation - Wikipedia

Canada does as well.

Indian reserve - Wikipedia

Australia no one cares.

Australia sucks

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Pretty much every country has preserves for displaced native populations. It's not like that idea is new. Israel is one of millions.

Apocalypse said:

That's not why and you're capable of seeing what was going in post #14. Total meltdown, rabid attacks. Ridiculous.

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But that's what you want to happen and that's why you play the antisemite card all of the time in the very " when did you stop beating your wife " way you accuse everyone else of operating.

And before you claim that he is in breach of the rules here remember it is against them to accuse someone of being an antisemite. So if you are going to report him report yourself whilst you at it

oneworld2 said:

What is this utter nonsense

The reason Israel has around 20% Arabs making up the population is purely down to the fact that its leaderships failed in their bid to get rid of them all. They called it " transfer " but the modern term that encapsulates it better is banned from use in this forum so cannot be used. They got rid of as many as they could by chasing them out or not letting them back in circa 1947-49 and then the dumped around another 2-3 00,000 more of them outside the gates in 1967.

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"The world is flat and Israel had it flattened" argument.
People who depend on reality will depend on reality and those who seek CT nonsense will always find some, you're making arguments that you know are completely detached just because the other choice is recognizing the wrongness of your claims. The Israeli declration of independence back in 1948 right after the war has ended accepted Arab citizens of the land. Displacements had taken place, some were even forceful displacements, that's however not to suggest that the state didn't accept the Arab inhabitants of the land that became Israel as full and equal citizens.

" None Germans in Germany " ??........... the difference being in Germany that your ethno-religious make-up doesn't stop you being German and doesn't affect your status. If you were born there you are German , note not Arab German or Muslim German , just German with the same rights as any other German . Same for all the other countries you mentioned

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Funny that you try to make fun of his accurate words by writing such ridiculous nonsense. The Germans he's referring to are ethnic Germans. Of course all citizens of Germany are called "Germans", because it's a reference to the German citizenship. If Israel was named "Judea" and Israelis were named "Jews" to go along with the nationality then all citizens who are named Israeli today would have been named Jews as well, clearly. So he's right regarding non-Germans (ethnicity).

oneworld2 said:

But that's what you want to happen and that's why you play the antisemite card all of the time in the very " when did you stop beating your wife " way you accuse everyone else of operating.

And before you claim that he is in breach of the rules here remember it is against them to accuse someone of being an antisemite. So if you are going to report him report yourself whilst you at it

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I don't play any card, I oppose the views promoted as I see them and I will continue to do so. Lashing out at posters is clearly unhelpful, and indeed in violation of the forum's rules.

Apocalypse said:

"The world is flat and Israel had it flattened" argument.

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Oh please , give it a rest with the perpetual victim status

People who depend on reality will depend on reality and those who seek CT nonsense will always find some, you're making arguments that you know are completely detached just because the other choice is recognizing the wrongness of your claims. The Israeli declration of independence back in 1948 right after the war has ended accepted Arab citizens of the land. Displacements had taken place, some were even forceful displacements, that's however not to suggest that the state didn't accept the Arab inhabitants of the land that became Israel as full and equal citizens.

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You inhabit your own reality whereby the whole world is antisemitic , on display again for the umpteenth time

There was nothing in my post that was CT . They managed to get out and keep out enough Arabs to maintain a significant Jewish majority in the area claimed as the state in the post independence war aftermath and could live with that with the world watching. But every time there is an opportunity to oust others it is taken. Did they not remove another 2-3 00,000 Palestinians in the aftermath of the 67 conflict ?

Funny that you try to make fun of his accurate words by writing such ridiculous nonsense. The Germans he's referring to are ethnic Germans. Of course all citizens of Germany are called "Germans", because it's a reference to the German citizenship. If Israel was named "Judea" and Israelis were named "Jews" to go along with the nationality then all citizens who are named Israeli today would have been named Jews as well, clearly. So he's right regarding non-Germans (ethnicity).

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No, what is dishonest is your editing out of my post the part that actually dealt with this very point and acknowledged it. And the reason you edited out was because it contained a part about those ethnicities NOT indigenous to the area , those being assimilated , in the case of the I/P conflict are the Jewish people NOT the Arabs.

You're so transparent in your attempts to deceive the reader

spud_meister said:

Israel is a nation predicated on maintaining power in the hands of a particular ethnic people. the justification for this is a dispossessed people have a right to rule their own nation on their historical territory, after having faced genocide. My question is, should this be applied to other nations where an ethnic group has faced genocide and had their lands taken?

In the US, Native Americans faced persecution and dispossession, so should the US implement policies to ensure the non-Native American population can't rise above 20%, and that most positions of power are held by Native Americans? What policies would people who think Israeli ethno-nationalism is justified like to see in nations where the indigenous inhabitants have faced dispossession and genocide, such as the US, Australia or Canada, in order to restore the indigenous population in a way that is justified by Israel?

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Spud_meister:

To your question at the end of your first paragraph, the answer is no, unless it can be achieved peacefully and with the consent of all people living on the land which will be part of the proposed ethno-religious state to be. Creating nations by force when a foreign population forcefully displaces an already settled one is a predatory and morally dangerous enterprise.

To your second paragraph the genocide and forcible displacement of First Nations Peoples in America by Europeans is not a parallel with the creation of the modern State of Israel. Many enthno-religious groups were involved in the conquest and depopulation of the "New World" from Protestant-Englishmen to Portuguese-Catholics and Spanish-Catholics. Thus there was not one ethno-religious conqueror but many. A better parallel would be the creation of Crusader States and Kingdoms in the Holy Land between the Twelfth and Fourteenth Centuries by European invaders like the Normans who imposed by force of arms a set of ethno-religious states in the Levant and almost completely excluded the local Arab population from any real political power except sometimes being able to advise the foreign rulers and elites.

Finally, returning to your first paragraph once more, the modern State of Israel is a state but not a single nation as some claim because it includes peoples of many national heratiges and language groups today. A Falasha Jew from Northeast Africa has very little in common with a Sephardic Jew from Spain and even less in common with an Ashkenazi Jew from Russia. The glue which holds the modern State of Israel together as a people is a common religious tradition and a shared cultural trauma from unjust pogroms and an utterly evil holocaust of attempted genocide by Europeans, but not a common ethnic tradition.

The notion that the Levant or even parts of the Levant are the Jews "own land" or their "historical territory" is flawed too. While some modern-day Sephardic Jews can make that claim better than most citizens of the modern State of Israel, the history of the region shows that the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews/Modern Israelis do not have an exclusive claim to the land which Israel claims and that other nations have valid and in some cases equally valid claims to that same land. However the modern State of Israel has a superior military to enforce its claims to the exclusion of other claimants and so has a right to exist, at least for now. History is fickle and what seems certain today can change precipitously tomorrow. History recognises no rights in the long-term.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.