For those who support the PLO/PA/BDS etc....

I have only one question....

What policies and measures have the Arabs/Muslim states done to deescalate tensions with Israel, and do you support these policies?

Someone over there is doing something to make things better? That would be news.

DarkWizard12 said:

I have only one question....

What policies and measures have the Arabs/Muslim states done to deescalate tensions with Israel, and do you support these policies?

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Let me ask you this; why did Netanyahu admit (on video), to deliberately derailing the Oslo Accord, which could have led to a meaningful peace and a genuine de-escalation? See, it works both ways. Enjoy:
YouTube

snakestretcher said:

Let me ask you this; why did Netanyahu admit (on video), to deliberately derailing the Oslo Accord, which could have led to a meaningful peace and a genuine de-escalation? See, it works both ways. Enjoy:
YouTube

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OK, I'll answer you when you answer. What policies, specifically, are Arab countries pursuing to deescalate tensions with Israel? What policies are Hamas and Hezbollah pursuing to deescalate tensions? Because there are many groups in israel, mainly on the left wing, who have committed themselves to peace and deescalation with the arabs. When have the Arabs protested against right-wing policies against Israel in Jordan, Egypt, or Lebanon?

By the way, the Oslo accords are more about conflict resolution(a mediocre example, sure) than about deescalate tensions, so it's not the same thing. I'm looking for actual, current policies that the arab countries have pursued to deescalate tensions. These usually take the form of join programs, but not always.

And again, as my OP indicated, i would like to know if you actual support these policies by Arabs, there are actually many examples of Arabs doing this, but I feel posters like you aren't really invested in peace and compromise by the Arabs with the Israelis. So go on....tell me which policies you know of, that you support, that have deescalated tensions?

DarkWizard12 said:

OK, I'll answer you when you answer. What policies, specifically, are Arab countries pursuing to deescalate tensions with Israel? What policies are Hamas and Hezbollah pursuing to deescalate tensions? Because there are many groups in israel, mainly on the left wing, who have committed themselves to peace and deescalation with the arabs. When have the Arabs protested against right-wing policies against Israel in Jordan, Egypt, or Lebanon?

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Well, how about you examine the Oslo Accord for yourself and let us know what you conclude from that. My conclusion is that Israel routinely demands completely unreasonable preconditions to any talks-for example the Palestinians are not permitted to have an army as an independent state. That's just one example; who would agree to such a demand?
Furthermore, as long as Israel continues to expand and pursue her territorial adventurism with the government sponsored settlement programme, Palestine will not bow to any Israeli demands.
Netanyahu categorically refuses any negotiation on the settlement question. Maybe you could ask him why.

snakestretcher said:

Well, how about you examine the Oslo Accord for yourself and let us know what you conclude from that. My conclusion is that Israel routinely demands completely unreasonable preconditions to any talks-for example the Palestinians are not permitted to have an army as an independent state. That's just one example; who would agree to such a demand?

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And accord based on a false assumption is worthless. The 'Palestinians' seek the eradication of Israel, not a way to live with it.

Sweden said:

And accord based on a false assumption is worthless. The 'Palestinians' seek the eradication of Israel, not a way to live with it.

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No they don't seek the eradication of anyone-and don't bother quoting the old Hamas charter; there's a new one (2017), with no mention of eradicating anything. Perhaps you could explain what this 'false assumption' is.

Sweden said:

And accord based on a false assumption is worthless. The 'Palestinians' seek the eradication of Israel, not a way to live with it.

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Hamas has hinted it will respect a two state deal based on the 67 borders IF it is approved via a national referendum of the Palestinian people. You might cry foul, with a fair amount of justification but the way to find out and/or call that bluff is to apply international law ( which is the correct vessel ) to the conflict and negotiate a JUST settlement of the conflict.

If you look at the history it is pretty obvious that the charge that Israel has sought to " eradicate " any Palestinian state, or at least enough of their leaderships have.

Bemoaning Palestinian rejectionism without bemoaning the accompanying Israeli rejectionism is just an exercise in partisanship and ultimately offers no chance of moving forward imo

snakestretcher said:

No they don't seek the eradication of anyone-and don't bother quoting the old Hamas charter; there's a new one (2017), with no mention of eradicating anything. Perhaps you could explain what this 'false assumption' is.

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I didn't know they had made it official policy so thx for that. Let's see how Israel reacts to another Palestinian peace offensive

DarkWizard12 said:

I have only one question....

What policies and measures have the Arabs/Muslim states done to deescalate tensions with Israel, and do you support these policies?

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The entire Arab Leagues position on Israel is formal and full relations with the state if they are able to conclude a just resolution of the conflict based on the 1967 borders , as per international law. It's been there for years now anyway , gathering dust while Israel continues to illegally settle Palestine

I think the BDS campaign is a great way to apply pressure on Israel to give up it's Greater Israel project but is hampered by it's dual position where some are one state supporters and others are two state supporters . Boycott , Divestment and Sanctions are peaceful options and the tactic is fair imo. The movemenrt , however , needs to clarify the end game to enjoy a much more broader international support. A support I believe would be there

oneworld2 said:

The entire Arab Leagues position on Israel is formal and full relations with the state if they are able to conclude a just resolution of the conflict based on the 1967 borders , as per international law. It's been there for years now anyway , gathering dust while Israel continues to illegally settle Palestine

I think the BDS campaign is a great way to apply pressure on Israel to give up it's Greater Israel project but is hampered by it's dual position where some are one state supporters and others are two state supporters . Boycott , Divestment and Sanctions are peaceful options and the tactic is fair imo. The movemenrt , however , needs to clarify the end game to enjoy a much more broader international support. A support I believe would be there

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You sort of just punted the question. I'm asking for actual policies that encourage descalation, such as cross-culture exchanges, meeting jews/Israelis, Arab-Peace organizations, etc. Israel and the west has many of those programs so people can meet both Palestinians and Israelis, and hear their stories and understand each other. You'll be surprised that some Arab countries also do this, and yes, some arabs come back with more moderate positions toward Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and no, BDS isn't one of those "policies". A lot of arabs/palestinians have, overtime, given up on the BDS/Intifada rhetoric due to programs from some Arab states.....I'm just curious, if you, and many others, even know that these programs exist, and if you do, do you support the idea of Arabs joining Israelis, moderating their positions, and putting aside the rhetoric of BDS in the name of peace?

Or, rather, are you like many other anti-israel westerners, who think the Arabs are no only justified, but should take a hard line against israel, using any means necessary, to destroy the state, and the Arabs who try to encourage these cross-culture programs are misguided and would be better off using that money investing in weapons/other resistance measures against Israel?

DarkWizard12 said:

You sort of just punted the question. I'm asking for actual policies that encourage descalation, such as cross-culture exchanges, meeting jews/Israelis, Arab-Peace organizations, etc. Israel and the west has many of those programs so people can meet both Palestinians and Israelis, and hear their stories and understand each other. You'll be surprised that some Arab countries also do this, and yes, some arabs come back with more moderate positions toward Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and no, BDS isn't one of those "policies". A lot of arabs/palestinians have, overtime, given up on the BDS/Intifada rhetoric due to programs from some Arab states.....I'm just curious, if you, and many others, even know that these programs exist, and if you do, do you support the idea of Arabs joining Israelis, moderating their positions, and putting aside the rhetoric of BDS in the name of peace?

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I am aware of many on the left of Israeli politics that have and do work with Arabs in a bid to create better relations. Going back to some of my own heroes like Uri Avnery and Israel Shahak and more modern day ones such as Miko Peled. The problem today is that these people consist of a tiny and despised minority with the Israeli youth being more and more anti Arab and generally racist in their views/ That's the reality and it doesn't bode well for the future

The BDS is a nonviolent approach to put pressure on Israel to conduct good faith efforts to resolve the conflict in a just way. I see no problem and actually prefer that tactic over the armed struggle which is largely symbolic and induces murderous attacks itself.

I wonder what you think people should do, seeing as you appear to denounce any attempt at ending Israel's 50 odd year occupation , subjugation and illegal settlement of the Palestinians. If they resort to armed conflict and if they adopt non-violence you also denounce it .

Or, rather, are you like many other anti-israel westerners, who think the Arabs are no only justified, but should take a hard line against israel, using any means necessary, to destroy the state, and the Arabs who try to encourage these cross-culture programs are misguided and would be better off using that money investing in weapons/other resistance measures against Israel?

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I don't see myself as "anti " anything except for obvious injustices and crimes. If that puts me at odds with Israel and " the West " that's probably because they have pretty **** records on engaging in both whilst trying to present it all as some sort of higher moral expedition , clearly BS imo

The " hard line " I take is to want to see the correct apparatus being used to resolve the conflict and create a just settlement. As opposed to those that think that the Israeli wish lists are paramount and the Arabs should be forced to give up their rights just to get a seat at the table............. such a bigoted opinion imo

oneworld2 said:

I am aware of many on the left of Israeli politics that have and do work with Arabs in a bid to create better relations. Going back to some of my own heroes like Uri Avnery and Israel Shahak and more modern day ones such as Miko Peled. The problem today is that these people consist of a tiny and despised minority with the Israeli youth being more and more anti Arab and generally racist in their views/ That's the reality and it doesn't bode well for the future

The BDS is a nonviolent approach to put pressure on Israel to conduct good faith efforts to resolve the conflict in a just way. I see no problem and actually prefer that tactic over the armed struggle which is largely symbolic and induces murderous attacks itself.

I don't see myself as "anti " anything except for obvious injustices and crimes. If that puts me at odds with Israel and " the West " that's probably because they have pretty **** records on engaging in both whilst trying to present it all as some sort of higher moral expedition , clearly BS imo

The " hard line " I take is to want to see the correct apparatus being used to resolve the conflict and create a just settlement. As opposed to those that think that the Israeli wish lists are paramount and the Arabs should be forced to give up their rights just to get a seat at the table............. such a bigoted opinion imo

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I'm not asking for policies that put pressure on israel. ANY policy that puts pressure on any state, by definition of 'pressure', only serves to escalate tensions, not de-escalate. I was specific. Do you know even know of any policies that are meant to deescalate tensions, and do you support that? I'm not asking about non violent approaches, like BDS, because aggression isn't always violent. I'm talking of specific policies that DEESCALATE tensions, that is the key word. Israel does a lot of those policies, and even arab countries like Egypt have undertaken some policies like that, but you don't seem to know what they are.

I wonder what you think people should do, seeing as you appear to denounce any attempt at ending Israel's 50 odd year occupation , subjugation and illegal settlement of the Palestinians. If they resort to armed conflict and if they adopt non-violence you also denounce it .

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I'm more interested to see if you KNOW of any policies currently being done for peace, before i answer the question, and also leave open the possibility of continued israeli control, as there is no serious peace proposal out there that doesn't allow for Israeli security....unless you want to take the hardline of saying Israel should be dismantled, but I'm sure that's not your stance right?

Here, we talk too much about Israel....this about Arabs. What policies do you support them doing, to descalate tensions with Israel? And really descalate, encouraging condemnation isn't one of those, no matter how "non-violent" you claim it is.

DarkWizard12 said:

I'm not asking for policies that put pressure on israel. ANY policy that puts pressure on any state, by definition of 'pressure', only serves to escalate tensions, not de-escalate. I was specific. Do you know even know of any policies that are meant to deescalate tensions, and do you support that? I'm not asking about non violent approaches, like BDS, because aggression isn't always violent. I'm talking of specific policies that DEESCALATE tensions, that is the key word. Israel does a lot of those policies, and even arab countries like Egypt have undertaken some policies like that, but you don't seem to know what they are.


I'm more interested to see if you KNOW of any policies currently being done for peace, before i answer the question, and also leave open the possibility of continued israeli control, as there is no serious peace proposal out there that doesn't allow for Israeli security....unless you want to take the hardline of saying Israel should be dismantled, but I'm sure that's not your stance right?

Here, we talk too much about Israel....this about Arabs. What policies do you support them doing, to descalate tensions with Israel? And really descalate, encouraging condemnation isn't one of those, no matter how "non-violent" you claim it is.

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I have advocated and strongly support a long term ceasefire between Israel and the Palestinian factions. You will not get a better vehicle for de-escalating tensions imo. Playing football together and sharing cultural exchanges etc etc are all well and good and should be supported whenever and wherever possible but you have to tackle the root is you want to see any meaningful shifts

oneworld2 said:

I have advocated and strongly support a long term ceasefire between Israel and the Palestinian factions. You will not get a better vehicle for de-escalating tensions imo. Playing football together and sharing cultural exchanges etc etc are all well and good and should be supported whenever and wherever possible but you have to tackle the root is you want to see any meaningful shifts

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I used to think that actually, but now, not so much. There are many arabs in Jerusalem, for example, that prefer expanded israeli control, because they do not trust the PA, and all the corruption and instability that plagues the palestinian leadership. For many palestinian businesses, PA control is bad for business. In fact, during an israeli politics, we're looking at data, and I noticed something really interesting. Arab-Israeli support for Israel has grown by nearly 100% in the last 20 years, meaning, in the 90's, only 17% of Arab-Israelis supported Israel. Now, it was shown to be supported by 31% of Arab-Israelis. This growth was achieved by 20 years of cross-cultural programs alone. In another 20 years, we could very well see a majority of Arab-Israelis supporting Israel. The thought I had, was why not try to replicate this shift of opinions in Judea/Samaria? The palestinian "problem" could become mute in a few generation, as palestinians would choose, in their own self interest, to support Israel.

DarkWizard12 said:

I used to think that actually, but now, not so much. There are many arabs in Jerusalem, for example, that prefer expanded israeli control, because they do not trust the PA, and all the corruption and instability that plagues the palestinian leadership. For many palestinian businesses, PA control is bad for business. In fact, during an israeli politics, we're looking at data, and I noticed something really interesting. Arab-Israeli support for Israel has grown by nearly 100% in the last 20 years, meaning, in the 90's, only 17% of Arab-Israelis supported Israel. Now, it was shown to be supported by 31% of Arab-Israelis. This growth was achieved by 20 years of cross-cultural programs alone. In another 20 years, we could very well see a majority of Arab-Israelis supporting Israel. The thought I had, was why not try to replicate this shift of opinions in Judea/Samaria? The palestinian "problem" could become mute in a few generation, as palestinians would choose, in their own self interest, to support Israel.

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The reason why Hamas support grew was because of Fatahs corruption and repression of their own. A fact seldom mentioned now due to political expediency but true nonetheless. They are still much reviled today for the same reasons. Again , not the thing to say in polite discourse about this conflict but also true nonetheless.

You have to make a decision here imo

It looks like you are wishing for total Israeli control over all of the territories and Israel itself. A state of affairs that already exists btw but with some sort of mutual acceptance/co habitability. Am I misreading this ?

If so you have to decide whether there should be a separate Palestinian state free from Israeli domination that works with it on healing the wounds using the means you describe or a one state binational affair with both peoples enjoying the same rights.

Is this where you are heading ?

IMO if you want to work towards a lasting peace the first step is to support a long term ceasefire agreement

DarkWizard12 said:

I have only one question....

What policies and measures have the Arabs/Muslim states done to deescalate tensions with Israel, and do you support these policies?

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DW13:

Egypt under Sadat made peace with Israel and now cooperates with Israel. Jordan has also de-escalated tensions for years and is not hostile to Israel. Lebanon and Syria are still hostile to Israel but a good deal of that hostility is rooted in Israel's own behaviour towards those two countries. Turkey has had reasonable relations with Israel for a longtime and very strong military to military cooperation with Israel. Saudi Arabia is cooperating on the down-low with Israel but cannot publicly admit it due to its very strong and fanatical Wahaabi problem at home. Iraq is hamstrung right now but is probably still hostile to Israel right now. Iran is hostile to Israel but with good reason since Israel is killing its citizens legally invited into Syria and Lebanon by those countries' governments. North Africa is less hostile than it was before but is not very accomidationg to Israel in general.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

DarkWizard12 said:

I'm not asking for policies that put pressure on israel. ANY policy that puts pressure on any state, by definition of 'pressure', only serves to escalate tensions, not de-escalate. I was specific. Do you know even know of any policies that are meant to deescalate tensions, and do you support that? I'm not asking about non violent approaches, like BDS, because aggression isn't always violent. I'm talking of specific policies that DEESCALATE tensions, that is the key word. Israel does a lot of those policies, and even arab countries like Egypt have undertaken some policies like that, but you don't seem to know what they are.


I'm more interested to see if you KNOW of any policies currently being done for peace, before i answer the question, and also leave open the possibility of continued israeli control, as there is no serious peace proposal out there that doesn't allow for Israeli security....unless you want to take the hardline of saying Israel should be dismantled, but I'm sure that's not your stance right?

Here, we talk too much about Israel....this about Arabs. What policies do you support them doing, to descalate tensions with Israel? And really descalate, encouraging condemnation isn't one of those, no matter how "non-violent" you claim it is.

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For me it is quite clear that Israel must take the initiative; it was they who have illegally expanded beyond the borders of the nation they were given, claiming 'national security' as justification. This government sanctioned policy of continued settlement building is at the heart of the dispute. Remove the settlers, return them to Israel-proper, recognise Palestinian statehood and the Palestinians will have no reason to resist the belligerent occupation. The violence will cease because there will be no reason for it to continue.

DarkWizard12 said:

I used to think that actually, but now, not so much. There are many arabs in Jerusalem, for example, that prefer expanded israeli control, because they do not trust the PA, and all the corruption and instability that plagues the palestinian leadership. For many palestinian businesses, PA control is bad for business. In fact, during an israeli politics, we're looking at data, and I noticed something really interesting. Arab-Israeli support for Israel has grown by nearly 100% in the last 20 years, meaning, in the 90's, only 17% of Arab-Israelis supported Israel. Now, it was shown to be supported by 31% of Arab-Israelis. This growth was achieved by 20 years of cross-cultural programs alone. In another 20 years, we could very well see a majority of Arab-Israelis supporting Israel. The thought I had, was why not try to replicate this shift of opinions in Judea/Samaria? The palestinian "problem" could become mute in a few generation, as palestinians would choose, in their own self interest, to support Israel.

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Well, that may be the present situation, but I suspect it would be very different once Palestine achieves full statehood recognition. We'll see then where national and emotional allegiances lie.