[W:56W:439]U.N. report on Gaza says Israeli forces may have committed war crimes

i expect bibi and his minions to cry 'witch hunt' about this, too
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ec8ed509d15_story.html?utm_term=.9f8a9015218c

Israeli security forces may have committed war crimes and should be held individually and collectively accountable for the deaths of 189 Palestinian protesters in Gaza last year, according to a report published Thursday by the United Nations.The U.N. Commission of Inquiry criticized Israel’s rules of engagement and said the majority of the Palestinians killed “did not pose an immediate threat of death or serious injury to others when they were shot.”
The report also noted that thousands of demonstrators have been maimed by Israeli snipers during the weekly protests along the border fence between Israel and the Gaza Strip. ...

Criticizing the Israeli military’s rules of engagement, which have included using snipers to prevent protesters from reaching the border fence, the commission said “less lethal alternatives remained available and substantial defenses were in place, rendering the use of lethal force neither necessary nor proportionate, and therefore impermissible.” ...

It said Israeli snipers intentionally shot at journalists and health workers even though they were clearly marked as such. ...

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justabubba said:

i expect bibi and his minions to cry 'witch hunt' about this, too
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ec8ed509d15_story.html?utm_term=.9f8a9015218c

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"May." What utter nonsense. Members of a militant terrorist organization charged the fence with wire cutters with the stated intention of paving the way towards killing Israeli citizens, and the Israelis were supposed to use nonlethal force against those violating their security? Even if I did not think that was such a ludicrous standard, I can and will only take the United Nations inquiries into Israel more seriously when they apply a consistent standard across the board when evaluating and publishing reports on human rights abuses. As it stands, the United Nations Human Rights Council may as well be called the United Nations Khartoum Council for the monomaniacal focus that they place on Israel for every crime real and quite often imagined. When they back harsh resolutions against Myanmar for completing the genocide of the Rohingya, or China for the ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs, I may be more inclined to listen.

Felis Leo said:

I will take the United Nations inquiries into Israel more seriously when they apply a consistent standard across the board when evaluating human rights abuses. As it stands, the United Nations Human Rights Council may as well be called the United Nations Khartoum Council for the monomaniacal focus that they place on Israel for every crime real and quite often imagined.

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share with us what about the UN report is factually wrong

Felis Leo said:

"May." What utter nonsense. Members of a militant terrorist organization charged the fence with wire cutters with the stated intention of paving the way towards killing Israeli citizens, and the Israelis were supposed to use nonlethal force against those violating their security? Even if I did not think that was such a ludicrous standard, I can and will only take the United Nations inquiries into Israel more seriously when they apply a consistent standard across the board when evaluating and publishing reports on human rights abuses. As it stands, the United Nations Human Rights Council may as well be called the United Nations Khartoum Council for the monomaniacal focus that they place on Israel for every crime real and quite often imagined. When they back harsh resolutions against Myanmar for completing the genocide of the Rohingya, or China for the ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs, I may be more inclined to listen.

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Ah yes, the ol' "we can't hold anyone responsible for war crimes until we hold them all responsible" nonsense.

In the mean time Israel gets bigger and bigger while Palestine gets smaller and further cut into a thousand pieces while walled in and massacred by the Israeli army when they try to fight back.

Palestinians hold plenty of responsibility in this conflict but the outright dismissal of Israeli war crimes and tactics is too much. The UN has consistently held that massacring unarmed people is a war crime and slowly absorbing someone else's country is illegal and a dick move.

justabubba said:

share with us what about the UN report is factually wrong

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You quoted me before the edit. The fact that many of these so-called "protesters" were not protesters, but plain-clothed members of Gaza's armed forces hiding amidst civilian protesters and making it impossible to determine civilian from armed combatant. That Hamas admitted to it, and its members admitted to doing this in order to take wire cutters to the fences in order to pave the way for further terror attacks against Israel's civilian population obviates any culpability on the part of the Israelis and made the use of lethal force against those who approached the barrier appropriate under the circumstances.

Felis Leo said:

You quoted me before the edit. The fact that many of these so-called "protesters" were not protesters, but plain-clothed members of Gaza's armed forces hiding amidst civilian protesters and making it impossible to determine civilian from armed combatant. That Hamas admitted to it, and its members admitted to doing this in order to take wire cutters to the fences in order to pave the way for further terror attacks against Israel's civilian population obviates any culpability on the part of the Israelis and made the use of lethal force against those who approached the barrier appropriate under the circumstances.

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then you are acknowledging the israelis were unable to distinguish from among the protesters which were members of hamas. thus telling us that the israeli army was indiscriminate in its attack upon the Palestinian protesters - consistent with the referenced UN report

Felis Leo said:

You quoted me before the edit. The fact that many of these so-called "protesters" were not protesters, but plain-clothed members of Gaza's armed forces hiding amidst civilian protesters and making it impossible to determine civilian from armed combatant. That Hamas admitted to it, and its members admitted to doing this in order to take wire cutters to the fences in order to pave the way for further terror attacks against Israel's civilian population obviates any culpability on the part of the Israelis and made the use of lethal force against those who approached the barrier appropriate under the circumstances.

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Sure, when you convince yourself they all could be "terrorists", it makes it much easier to feel justified in mowing down a crowd of civilians.

If a foreign country walled your country in to a thousand separate pieces with check points and limited your freedom of movement, while bringing in people of a specific race from all over the world to specifically settle the land they just took from you, most Americans wouldn't hesitate to grab their guns and become violent. Turns out humans don't like being put in cages, regardless of how big they are.

The UN is institutionally anti-Israel. What would be a surprise would be to find anything remotely even-handed coming out of that warped organization.

RabidAlpaca said:

Ah yes, the ol' "we can't hold anyone responsible for war crimes until we hold them all responsible" nonsense.

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Do not get me wrong, RabidAlpaca. It is not that I do not believe the Israelis cannot commit war crimes. I just do not trust the United Nations, any more than I trust the judgment of a police officer who was found to have engaged in racist activities and admitted to hating black people. That does not mean that every black person the cop arrested was innocent of committing any crimes. But I would not trust his judgment and I suspect neither would you. I do not trust the judgment of any organization, and certainly not a supranational organization whose membership includes some of the most despicable tyrannies on Earth, who applies such arbitrary standards based on ethnic animus combined with expediency.

RabidAlpaca said:

In the mean time Israel gets bigger and bigger while Palestine gets smaller and further cut into a thousand pieces while walled in and massacred by the Israeli army when they try to fight back.

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Then why are they fighting back in such a manner?

RabidAlpaca said:

Palestinians hold plenty of responsibility in this conflict but the outright dismissal of Israeli war crimes and tactics is too much. The UN has consistently held that massacring unarmed people is a war crime and slowly absorbing someone else's country is illegal and a dick move.

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And if the Israelis were outright massacring people, they would deserve condemnation. But they do not. They respond just as any civil country that wanted to maintain its existence and safeguard its civilian population would under similar circumstances. I suspect Germany would do the exact same thing as the Israelis if they were faced with attacks on their civilian population from a hostile neighboring country.

Felis Leo said:

Do not get me wrong, RabidAlpaca. It is not that I do not believe the Israelis cannot commit war crimes. I just do not trust the United Nations, any more than I trust the judgment of a police officer who was found to have engaged in racist activities and admitted to hating black people. That does not mean that every black person the cop arrested was innocent of committing any crimes. But I would not trust his judgment and I suspect neither would you. I do not trust the judgment of any organization, and certainly not a supranational organization whose membership includes some of the most despicable tyrannies on Earth, who applies such arbitrary standards based on ethnic animus combined with expediency.



Then why are they fighting back in such a manner?



And if the Israelis were outright massacring people, they would deserve condemnation. But they do not. They respond just as any civil country that wanted to maintain its existence and safeguard its civilian population would under similar circumstances. I suspect Germany would do the exact same thing as the Israelis if they were faced with attacks on their civilian population from a hostile neighboring country.

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This needs saying and cannot be repeated too often. Israel fights to continue to exist; the Arabs fight to destroy it. Calling the Arabs 'Palestinians' to make them seem a tiny bunch of victims is quite a neat trick that has fooled too many for too long.

The UN is completely irrelevant on the subject of Israel. It's dominated and controlled by antisemitic nations and one of its key purposes today is to justify the murder of Jewish innocents under the guise of the protection of human rights through the moral support to terror organizations as seen in the OP.

Israel has the right to defend itself from masses of terrorists at the border who try to invade the country and commit acts of murder. Every country has that right.
And no one is going to take that right away from the civilians threatened by those terrorists. Absolutely no one.

Felis Leo said:

Do not get me wrong, RabidAlpaca. It is not that I do not believe the Israelis cannot commit war crimes. I just do not trust the United Nations, any more than I trust the judgment of a police officer who was found to have engaged in racist activities and admitted to hating black people. That does not mean that every black person the cop arrested was innocent of committing any crimes. But I would not trust his judgment and I suspect neither would you. I do not trust the judgment of any organization, and certainly not a supranational organization whose membership includes some of the most despicable tyrannies on Earth, who applies such arbitrary standards based on ethnic animus combined with expediency.



Then why are they fighting back in such a manner?



And if the Israelis were outright massacring people, they would deserve condemnation. But they do not. They respond just as any civil country that wanted to maintain its existence and safeguard its civilian population would under similar circumstances. I suspect Germany would do the exact same thing as the Israelis if they were faced with attacks on their civilian population from a hostile neighboring country.

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Any self respecting country, including Americans and Germans would become incredibly violent and dissident if they were treated half as bad as Palestinians are treated by Israelis. If a foreign country regularly took my land by force and imprisoned my countrymen in little islands of land we can barely travel between I would grab a gun and make it change.

Shooting unarmed civilians is inexcusable, a few having some wire cutters is completely irrelevant. War crimes are war crimes even if the UN agrees.

Sweden said:

This needs saying and cannot be repeated too often. Israel fights to continue to exist; the Arabs fight to destroy it. Calling the Arabs 'Palestinians' to make them seem a tiny bunch of victims is quite a neat trick that has fooled too many for too long.

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If they're not Palestinians what are they? Nationless nomads who deserve to have their land taken by force and locked in land cages by a foreign army?

Apocalypse said:

The UN is completely irrelevant on the subject of Israel. It's dominated and controlled by antisemitic nations and one of its key purposes today is to justify the murder of Jewish innocents under the guise of the protection of human rights through the moral support to terror organizations as seen in the OP.

Israel has the right to defend itself from masses of terrorists at the border who try to invade the country and commit acts of murder. Every country has that right.
And no one is going to take that right away from the civilians threatened by those terrorists. Absolutely no one.

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If you actually believed everyone has a right to defend their borders you'd understand why Palestinians attack illegal settlements on their land.

You've however dehumanized them so much that you don't even recognize their basic right to exist. Your words are inconsistent and meaningless.

If Israel was split into a dozen tiny land islands with a foreign army controlling movement between them and embargoing trade to it, you would not hesitate to become violent to defend your country and your people.

RabidAlpaca said:

If they're not Palestinians what are they? Nationless nomads who deserve to have their land taken by force and locked in land cages by a foreign army?



If you actually believed everyone has a right to defend their borders you'd understand why Palestinians attack illegal settlements on their land.

You've however dehumanized them so much that you don't even recognize their basic right to exist. Your words are inconsistent and meaningless.

If Israel was split into a dozen tiny land islands with a foreign army controlling movement between them and embargoing trade to it, you would not hesitate to become violent to defend your country and your people.

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You say this based on what?
The majority of Palestinians aren't "becoming violent" to what you refer to as "defending their country" and moral people refer to as the murder of innocents.

Anyway my words are indeed meaningful and more consistent than anyone else, and unlike you I don't dehumanize people and don't doubt anyone's right to exist.
Your obsession with the topic is exactly because you cannot cope with the fact that Israel defends itself as you cannot recognize the right of Jewish life to exist on this planet - as seen in this thread for the who knows what time.

RabidAlpaca said:

Any self respecting country, including Americans and Germans would become incredibly violent and dissident if they were treated half as bad as Palestinians are treated by Israelis. If a foreign country regularly took my land by force and imprisoned my countrymen in little islands of land we can barely travel between I would grab a gun and make it change.

Shooting unarmed civilians is inexcusable, a few having some wire cutters is completely irrelevant. War crimes are war crimes even if the UN agrees.

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That's silly whataboutery you're throwing to desperately defend acts of murder that aren't any different from 9/11 or the Paris attack by ISIS (I'm using non-Jewish examples since to you Jews aren't human beings so I'm required to adjust)
As I said the overwhelming majority of Palestinians don't become terrorists, just like the overwhelming majority of every population going through hardships, some in history even far greater than those.
So your pro-murder argument is surprisingly not holding any water as there's never any justification for the murder of innocents.

Israel has the right to defend itself from terrorists at the border who try to invade the country and commit acts of murder. Your expectation that Israel would allow it to happen and just let hundreds of thousands of civilians be murdered is ridiculous. The government of Israel has an obligation to protect the lives of its civilians, it cannot take your approach to promote their murder as unlike you it cannot be motivated by the willingness to see them murdered.
The overwhelming majority of those killed at the border clashes with the Hamas and the civilians it brought there were active members of terror groups. Calling it "crimes" is itself a statement in support for the crimes it stopped.

RabidAlpaca said:

Any self respecting country, including Americans and Germans would become incredibly violent and dissident if they were treated half as bad as Palestinians are treated by Israelis. If a foreign country regularly took my land by force and imprisoned my countrymen in little islands of land we can barely travel between I would grab a gun and make it change.

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I do not think so. Neither Hamas, Islamic Jihad nor the Palestinian Liberation Army or their members are self-respecting organizations or people and the manner in which they have behaved is utterly unjustifiable on any grounds whatsoever. If you had participated in an attempted war of extermination against the occupying nation (including calling on stronger neighboring nations to annihilate the occupying nation), said that you would not recognize the occupying nation even they stopped the occupation, continued attacking them even when they withdrew from your land, and declared that you wished to kill members of the civilian population down to the last child, I would argue that the occupying nation would have just as much right to defend themselves against you as the Israelis have, and you would fully deserve your death in those circumstances. Just as I would if I engaged in such behavior. Just as anyone would.

RabidAlpaca said:

Shooting unarmed civilians is inexcusable, a few having some wire cutters is completely irrelevant. War crimes are war crimes even if the UN agrees.

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Just a moment. Let us back up and define our terms, RabidAlpaca. If I apprehend your reasoning, you do not see the Palestinians as a stateless peoples, but as people possessing a country which is being encroached upon. Therefore, the governing authority of Hamas is, for better or worse, a state actor. If I am grasping what you are saying, and I accept as read that the Palestinians have a country that is being occupied by the Israelis, what are the rules of engagement?

For example, is it excusable for Hamas to disguise its armed forces as civilians to hide among actual civilians in order to engage in military operations against the Israeli armed forces and its civilian population?

Would you concede that firing rockets and mortars into civilian centers with the express aim of killing noncombatants and grinding civilian life in Israel to a halt is inexcusable and merits a response? Or is it excusable because the Palestinians simply do not have access to more advanced technology?

Would you concede that Hamas launching rockets from the tops of occupied civilian buildings is against the rules of war for a state actor to engage in? As well as placing arsenals and weapons caches in occupied civilian structures?

Or do these internationally-recognized rules of war no longer apply to the Palestinians when they initiate these conflagrations? Perhaps you believe they cannot initiate these conflicts because the fact that they are occupied provides an eternal justification for them to engage in these acts and justifies no response on the Israeli side? Likewise, what are the Israelis to do in response to these acts, whether you consider any response legitimate or not?

Because if you ask me to treat the Palestinians as not a stateless people and stateless actors who represent no one but themselves, but instead as an occupied people whose rights to statehood and government should be recognized just as much as those of the Israelis, shall I only do it for the purposes of noting alleged Israeli war crimes, and simply ignore what the Palestinian state actors are doing?

Felis Leo said:

You quoted me before the edit. The fact that many of these so-called "protesters" were not protesters, but plain-clothed members of Gaza's armed forces hiding amidst civilian protesters and making it impossible to determine civilian from armed combatant. That Hamas admitted to it, and its members admitted to doing this in order to take wire cutters to the fences in order to pave the way for further terror attacks against Israel's civilian population obviates any culpability on the part of the Israelis and made the use of lethal force against those who approached the barrier appropriate under the circumstances.

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Some things to consider about you commentary above and in previous posts in this thread

If the people killed, even if they are associated with Hamas in some capacity , are NOT ARMED then they are just the same threat to IDF personnel as any other protester could be seen as. So your line about the IDF not being able to distinguish between armed and not armed protesters is moot, Unless of course you have ample evidence of widespread carrying of arms by protesters which I suspect you won't....... wire cutters don't count as arms either

The bottom line is , according to the laws the UN are obviously using , if you are not armed and do not pose an imminent and mortal danger to the IDF soldier that decides to shoot you dead then the killing isn't counted as legitimate self defence

Given the complete disparity in military capabilities , how do you expect any of those protesters to be able to make it through the fence and engage in " terror attacks " in Israel even if they wanted to ?

Despite crying about the alleged bias of the UN wrt Israel their own fact findings missions have also accused the Palestinians of engaging in war crimes and have cited the examples to back them. This even handedness is just simply ignored and the UN crime is to dare to charge Israel with war crimes it has obviously engaged in

Bear in mind too that the UN bears a huge responsibility for the Arab/Israeli conflict and has seen Israel flout its laws and conventions since its creation and ride roughshod over it's decisions ( thx to the US veto ) for decades

Why is your feverish defence of a peoples territory and their right to self defence only applied to the territory and people of the state of Israel ? Recall , Israel is and has been occupying Palestinian land for 50+ years with serious serious wholesale violations of the rights of the people living there. They are also occupying Syrian territory and violating Syrian sovereign territory at will and with a kind of self proclaimed impunity/ They violate Lebanese airspace virtually every day and have used their military to attack as far a field as Iraq and Tunisia. They openly threaten Iran etc etc

If you are going to put yourself up as a defender of a peoples right to self defence and territorial security at least try and be consistent

justabubba said:

then you are acknowledging the israelis were unable to distinguish from among the protesters which were members of hamas. thus telling us that the israeli army was indiscriminate in its attack upon the Palestinian protesters - consistent with the referenced UN report

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If being a member of Hamas or an associate of Hamas in any capacity is a justification for your being killed then, seeing as successive governments of Israel have engaged in wholesale state terrorism against the Palestinians , which they undoubtedly have imo , then the same standards should be applied.

Who here would class as a legitimate target for execution every Israeli government supporter/associate or IDF personnel on duty or off duty ?

Whilst I can see something of the point you are making wrt Hamas people ( but see above analogy ) I personally don't class sniping as being a form of indiscriminate attack , people are singled out with cross hairs and deliberately targeted

Sweden said:

The UN is institutionally anti-Israel. What would be a surprise would be to find anything remotely even-handed coming out of that warped organization.

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The Goldstone Report accused both sides of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity during operation Cast Lead. Seems pretty " even handed " to me

The UN also has , over many decades , sought to resolve the conflict using international laws and conventions only to be blocked by the US veto sympathetic to Israeli objections to this

Are the laws biased , were thy written especially to thwart Israel's desire for a greater Israel at the expense of Palestinian nationhood ?

This idea that the UN and often the whole world is anti Israel is just nonsense imo examples of this hogwash abound if you ever care to look for them

oneworld2 said:

Some things to consider about you commentary above and in previous posts in this thread

If the people killed, even if they are associated with Hamas in some capacity , are NOT ARMED then they are just the same threat to IDF personnel as any other protester could be seen as. So your line about the IDF not being able to distinguish between armed and not armed protesters is moot, Unless of course you have ample evidence of widespread carrying of arms by protesters which I suspect you won't....... wire cutters don't count as arms either

The bottom line is , according to the laws the UN are obviously using , if you are not armed and do not pose an imminent and mortal danger to the IDF soldier that decides to shoot you dead then the killing isn't counted as legitimate self defence

Given the complete disparity in military capabilities , how do you expect any of those protesters to be able to make it through the fence and engage in " terror attacks " in Israel even if they wanted to ?

Despite crying about the alleged bias of the UN wrt Israel their own fact findings missions have also accused the Palestinians of engaging in war crimes and have cited the examples to back them. This even handedness is just simply ignored and the UN crime is to dare to charge Israel with war crimes it has obviously engaged in

Bear in mind too that the UN bears a huge responsibility for the Arab/Israeli conflict and has seen Israel flout its laws and conventions since its creation and ride roughshod over it's decisions ( thx to the US veto ) for decades

Why is your feverish defence of a peoples territory and their right to self defence only applied to the territory and people of the state of Israel ? Recall , Israel is and has been occupying Palestinian land for 50+ years with serious serious wholesale violations of the rights of the people living there. They are also occupying Syrian territory and violating Syrian sovereign territory at will and with a kind of self proclaimed impunity/ They violate Lebanese airspace virtually every day and have used their military to attack as far a field as Iraq and Tunisia. They openly threaten Iran etc etc

If you are going to put yourself up as a defender of a peoples right to self defence and territorial security at least try and be consistent

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Before we continue this discussion, oneworld2, I must ask: in your ideal world, or at least in your ideal Middle East, what form would Israel take? What would its territorial boundaries look like?

It's UNHRC report, that's says it all.
Anyway Israel has the right to defened itself from the 'protests' which are basically attempts to damage the security fence and invade Israel.
Instead of blaming Hamas for sending kids to damage the fence, they are blaming Israel for preventing from thousands Gazans (which many of them are Hamas people) from invading Israel.

Also, what about more then 1300 rockets which have been fired to Israel during 2018 by Hamas? Why they didn't write that in the report too?

Felis Leo said:

Before we continue this discussion, oneworld2, I must ask: in your ideal world, or at least in your ideal Middle East, what form would Israel take? What would its territorial boundaries look like?

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It's not an " ideal world " to wish to see the same standards being applied to all parties Felis leo

That's my objection to your commentary

The territorial boundaries of Israel I support are those that lie within the internationally recognized borders of the pre 67 world

See you either support a peoples right to defend themselves and have territorial security or you don't. You can't support it for one people but support the violation of it for another people without

A Not really believing it in the first place

B Being , rightfully , called out on grounds of hyposcrisy

If association with Hamas is an acceptable death sentence for Palestinians , is it not hypocritical to not allow the same view of Israelis associated with or supporters of the state of Israel whose governments have subjected the Palestinians to state terrorism ?

So, should Palestinians , Syrians , Lebanese etc etc have the same rights as Israelis to self determination in recognized borders free from outside violations from forces of the state of Israel or not ?

oneworld2 said:

It's not an " ideal world " to wish to see the same standards being applied to all parties Felis leo

That's my objection to your commentary

The territorial boundaries of Israel I support are those that lie within the internationally recognized borders of the pre 67 world

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I am glad you have made your position clear. I disagree and believe the Israelis should retain the territory taken in 1967.

oneworld2 said:

See you either support a peoples right to defend themselves and have territorial security or you don't. You can't support it for one people but support the violation of it for another people without

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I am happy to make my position clear: I do not believe in "a people's" freedom to defend themselves. I do not believe freedom can be enjoyed only in the aggregate of a group or by "a people." I believe in an individual's right to self defense. I do believe in the responsibility of a state to defend its citizens, but it is not based on any kind of popular right. If a state were to have only two duties, it would be to establish and maintain rule of law, and protect its citizens through the use of a domestic police force and a military to prevent foreign incursion.

RabidAlpaca said:

Ah yes, the ol' "we can't hold anyone responsible for war crimes until we hold them all responsible" nonsense.

In the mean time Israel gets bigger and bigger while Palestine gets smaller and further cut into a thousand pieces while walled in and massacred by the Israeli army when they try to fight back.

Palestinians hold plenty of responsibility in this conflict but the outright dismissal of Israeli war crimes and tactics is too much. The UN has consistently held that massacring unarmed people is a war crime and slowly absorbing someone else's country is illegal and a dick move.

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There has not been a "wholesale dismissal" of supposed war crimes by Israel. There have been IDF members prosecuted and convicted for crimes.

There has been a "wholesale dismissal" of war crimes by Hamas though. I am pretty sure there were congratulations all around for the perpetrators.

oneworld2 said:

The Goldstone Report accused both sides of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity during operation Cast Lead. Seems pretty " even handed " to me

The UN also has , over many decades , sought to resolve the conflict using international laws and conventions only to be blocked by the US veto sympathetic to Israeli objections to this

Are the laws biased , were thy written especially to thwart Israel's desire for a greater Israel at the expense of Palestinian nationhood ?

This idea that the UN and often the whole world is anti Israel is just nonsense imo examples of this hogwash abound if you ever care to look for them

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Have you read Goldstone's latest statements IRT the report?