• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The Hazards of Military Occupation: The Laws in these Parts

oneworld2 said:
Can't read the article due to subscription issues but will try and find the docs.........do they have a name ?

Maybe put them up here if possible
Click to expand...

Oneworld2:

Unfortunately the article is now blocked for me too until the end of the month. I will see if I can post it in parts then. Damn paywalls!

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
I just finished the film.

The interviews with the military judges were very enlightening. These judges were not acting as impartial adjudicators at all, by the admission of several of the judges interviewed. They were acting as agents of the IDF and felt a duty to support the IDF, the security apparatus and the need to suppress the rebellious Palestinians over their duty to be an impartial adjudicator. That's not my take away but the content of their explicit statements. One youngish jurist with an absurd yellow tie even admitted that it was the job of the Israeli Supreme Court to balance the demands of security with the requirement for legality! He did not say a balance between security and the law. He said legality and he was being very precise in his language. Thus if the security forces felt it necessary they could break the laws of Israel in order to hopefully provide the security which they sought. Stunning. Another judge and colonel in the IDF admitted that the judges were first and foremost part of the military system and that the demands of that system superseded their duty to be impartial referees and adjudicators on behalf of the accused before them. One judge accused an Israeli legal scholar from the Hebrew University (who did a very thorough study of the military court system and wrote a scathing report about it which argued that the heavy-handed justice may have worsened the intifadas) of being a Leninist!

A film which should be seen and studied by anyone who wants to understand how the mechanisms of deniable suppression of an occupied population is conducted and the corrosive effect of systemic group-think on a justice system.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
I just finished the film.

The interviews with the military judges were very enlightening. These judges were not acting as impartial adjudicators at all, by the admission of several of the judges interviewed. They were acting as agents of the IDF and felt a duty to support the IDF, the security apparatus and the need to suppress the rebellious Palestinians over their duty to be an impartial adjudicator. That's not my take away but the content of their explicit statements. One youngish jurist with an absurd yellow tie even admitted that it was the job of the Israeli Supreme Court to balance the demands of security with the requirement for legality! He did not say a balance between security and the law. He said legality and he was being very precise in his language. Thus if the security forces felt it necessary they could break the laws of Israel in order to hopefully provide the security which they sought. Stunning. Another judge and colonel in the IDF admitted that the judges were first and foremost part of the military system and that the demands of that system superseded their duty to be impartial referees and adjudicators on behalf of the accused before them. One judge accused an Israeli legal scholar from the Hebrew University (who did a very thorough study of the military court system and wrote a scathing report about it which argued that the heavy-handed justice may have worsened the intifadas) of being a Leninist!

A film which should be seen and studied by anyone who wants to understand how the mechanisms of deniable suppression of an occupied population is conducted and the corrosive effect of systemic group-think on a justice system.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Yep , that's the only conclusion people can draw from the comments of the " judges ". A shocking indictment of just how skewed the system of military courts operating in the occupied territories actually is and has been for over 50 years !!

Glad you found it interesting . My view is that those who wish to ignore it , just like in the 5 Broken Cameras thread , are not really interested in finding out about the reality of life for Palestinians.


34 views in around 2 months when I last checked tells a story too imo
 
Evilroddy said:
Oneworld2:

Unfortunately the article is now blocked for me too until the end of the month. I will see if I can post it in parts then. Damn paywalls!

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Paywalls are a drag
 
Another article about the craziness of the military courts system in the West Bank

Luigi Daniele said:
The present article presents a critical overview of the main legal questions which arise from the Israeli military justice system in the West Bank. It commences from the inception of the system, focusing on the domestic Israeli approach to its juridical configuration and the manner in which this informed the interpretation of international law and its applicability in the occupied Palestinian territory.

(((........................................)))


According to UN sources published in 2008,[45] it is estimated that approximately 760,000 Palestinian men, women and children have been imprisoned by the Israeli military from 1967. For Palestinians GOs,[46] the number is estimated to be more than 800.000, almost half of the total current population of the West Bank. These numbers indicate a policy of mass incarceration, and this raises the question of the connection between this policy and the substantive law enforced by the military courts
Click to expand...

Enforcing Illegality: Israel’s Military Justice in the West Bank - QIL QDI

That's a staggering statistic ..................................... 760,000 Palestinian men, women and children have been imprisoned by the Israeli military from 1967. ( recall this is ten years ago too )
 
oneworld2 said:
The Hazards of Military Occupation: The Laws in these Parts is a fantastic documentary in Hebrew ( ? ) ( English subtitles ) concerning the military occupation of the Palestinians by Israel and the legal/military courts system set up and developed as the occupation developed.

It was made by Israeli film maker Ra'anan Alexandrowicz and covers the trials and tribulations , the conflicting interests of those military judges that presided over cases against Palestinians in the Occupied Territories. Military judges were IDF officers trained in the law.

Alexandrowicz interviews these military judges and asks about how the system worked . About how those charged were found guilty or not and the use of collaborators. About the use of torture. If their loyalty to the state of Israel influenced/conflicted with their decision making /interests

It's a fascinating and rare insight into a seldom discussed topic even though this has been and continues to be the system under which millions of Palestinians live

I would just like to take the opportunity also to address the words of Bassem Tamimi , one of those that has suffered under this system , as were relayed by him to the military judge appointed to his 2011 case. They occur right and the end of the documentary and give us a very rare insight into how a Palestinian feels living under this oppression their whole life

Bassem Tamimi

Your honour, I was born in the same year as the occupation and ever since I,ve been living under its inherent inhumanity , inequality , racism and lack of freedom.I have been imprisoned 9 times for a sum total of almost 3 years though I was never convicted of any felony .

During one of my detentions I was paralysed as a result of torture. My wife was detained , my children wounded , my land stolen by settlers and now my house is slated for demolition. International law recognizes that occupied people have the right to resist. Because of my belief in this right I organize popular demonstrations against the theft of more than half of my village's land. Against settler attacks , against the occupation.

You , who claim to be the only democracy in the Middle East , are trying me under laws by authorities I have not elected and do not represent me. For me these laws do not exist;they are meaningless. The military prosecutor accuses me of inciting protesters to throw stones at the soldiers. What actually incited them was the occupation bulldozers on our land. The guns , the smell of tear gas. And , if the military judge releases me , will I be convinced there is justice in your courts ?

I complete rarity for DP members.................... the articulate voice of an occupied Palestinian



YouTube
Click to expand...

Have you started any threads about how the governments of any Muslim theocratic government mistreats non-Muslims in their countries? Or it is just about the 1/1000th of 1% of land of the region that Jews have that bothers you so much?
 
oneworld2 said:
The silence is deafening

Put the words up of a Palestinian explaining , in an articulate way , the gross injustices they have suffered due to the Israeli occupation of the Palestinians and the illegal settlement programme and the DP posters here cannot comment

The " 5 Broken Cameras " thread that was created was , imo , likewise just too much of a reality check about life under a brutal and repressive military occupation for the usual posters/suspects here to comment on


Talk about partisanship !!

I'll see what else I can dig up that you can all run for cover from
Click to expand...



Iran’s Overcrowded Prisons Hold A Quarter of A Million People, Says Chief Warden

Up to 50 people are imprisoned in Iran every hour, the head of the Iranian Social Workers’ Association, Hassan Mousavi Chelak, has disclosed.

Iran’s chief prison warden, Asghar Jahangir, puts the number of inmates in Iran at roughly a quarter of a million, which indicates a threefold increase in 20 years

According to Chelak, Article 64 of the Islamic Penal Code paves the way for the country’s judiciary to dole out other forms of punishment such as“unpaid public service, fines, and deprivation of social rights.”

Based on the latest statistics, Iranian prisons are overcrowded. Jahangir told reporters in December that prisons are not allocated sufficient budgets for operation. “Prisons in the Islamic Republic have two times more inmates than their capacity. We are incapable of properly feeding our prisoners three times a day,” he said."

Iran’s Overcrowded Prisons Hold A Quarter of A Million People, Says Chief Warden

So, will you start threads on this - or will your "silence be deafening" as you "run for cover?"
 
joko104 said:
Iran’s Overcrowded Prisons Hold A Quarter of A Million People, Says Chief Warden

Up to 50 people are imprisoned in Iran every hour, the head of the Iranian Social Workers’ Association, Hassan Mousavi Chelak, has disclosed.

Iran’s chief prison warden, Asghar Jahangir, puts the number of inmates in Iran at roughly a quarter of a million, which indicates a threefold increase in 20 years

According to Chelak, Article 64 of the Islamic Penal Code paves the way for the country’s judiciary to dole out other forms of punishment such as“unpaid public service, fines, and deprivation of social rights.”

Based on the latest statistics, Iranian prisons are overcrowded. Jahangir told reporters in December that prisons are not allocated sufficient budgets for operation. “Prisons in the Islamic Republic have two times more inmates than their capacity. We are incapable of properly feeding our prisoners three times a day,” he said."

Iran’s Overcrowded Prisons Hold A Quarter of A Million People, Says Chief Warden

So, will you start threads on this - or will your "silence be deafening" as you "run for cover?"
Click to expand...

Why would I be silent or run for cover because you want to talk about overcrowding in Iranian jails in a thread about an occupied people having their occupiers being their judge , jury and executioners ?

Whatever you want to say about Iranian jails , remember one thing , it's Iranians trying Iranians that are not living under a foreign military occupation and being tried by those occupying them

I fact that seems to have escaped you
 
joko104 said:
Have you started any threads about how the governments of any Muslim theocratic government mistreats non-Muslims in their countries? Or it is just about the 1/1000th of 1% of land of the region that Jews have that bothers you so much?
Click to expand...

What bothers me is the ongoing wholesale abuse and slaughter of an entire people due simply to the fact that someone else wants their land for themselves , ongoing for over a century and in earnest for around 70 years

Besides , I am sure their are many more like you here that will have made countless threads about Muslims/Islam and what some of them do , so you don't need any help from me
 
joko104 said:
Iran’s Overcrowded Prisons Hold A Quarter of A Million People, Says Chief Warden

Up to 50 people are imprisoned in Iran every hour, the head of the Iranian Social Workers’ Association, Hassan Mousavi Chelak, has disclosed.

Iran’s chief prison warden, Asghar Jahangir, puts the number of inmates in Iran at roughly a quarter of a million, which indicates a threefold increase in 20 years

According to Chelak, Article 64 of the Islamic Penal Code paves the way for the country’s judiciary to dole out other forms of punishment such as“unpaid public service, fines, and deprivation of social rights.”

Based on the latest statistics, Iranian prisons are overcrowded. Jahangir told reporters in December that prisons are not allocated sufficient budgets for operation. “Prisons in the Islamic Republic have two times more inmates than their capacity. We are incapable of properly feeding our prisoners three times a day,” he said."

Iran’s Overcrowded Prisons Hold A Quarter of A Million People, Says Chief Warden

So, will you start threads on this - or will your "silence be deafening" as you "run for cover?"
Click to expand...

Joko104:

Iran's population in 2017 was 81.6 million souls or about one quarter of the USA. If Iran has 250,000 people in jail/prison/detention and we multiply that by four we get about a million people who would be in jail if Iran was as populous as the USA. The USA has about 6 million people presently under penal supervision including about 2.3 million in prisons, jails and other holding facilities. The rest of the 6 million are on parole, in halfway houses, under house arrest, under electronic monitoring, etc. So Iran has less than half the number of people per capita incarcerated that the USA does when adjusted for population differences.

All of this is a non-sequitur preface to the key question which needs to be asked of you here. What are you on about and what do Iranian incarceration rates have to do with Israeli military judges acting as admittedly partial agents of an occupying military power rather than as impartial arbiters of justice?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Last edited:
oneworld2 said:
There is no proof that God exists nor that he was an estate agent. Move on from religious dogma and understand that this is predominantly a nationalist conflict with a religious tinge
Click to expand...

Palestinian attempts to steal the land from the rightful Jewish owners is a serious threat to world peace.
 
marke said:
Palestinian attempts to steal the land from the rightful Jewish owners is a serious threat to world peace.
Click to expand...

When you can prove God exists and he is supporting the Jewish claim to Palestinian territory then we will have something to talk about. Until then , nah
 
oneworld2 said:
When you can prove God exists and he is supporting the Jewish claim to Palestinian territory then we will have something to talk about. Until then , nah
Click to expand...

We should at least ask the Palestinians for their legitimate property deeds showing their rightful claim to the property the Jews claim is theirs. If the Jews were to lose property in war do they still get to claim the property is theirs? What about Palestinian losses? Do they still have a right to claim property they lost in war? Were the allies, Stalin, Roosevelt, and Churchill right to carve up Europe and give out the properties to whoever they wanted to give the property to? Was Russia right to give itself 10 formerly free nations as a result of its participation in WW2?
 
Last edited:
marke said:
We should at least ask the Palestinians for their legitimate property deeds showing their rightful claim to the property the Jews claim is theirs. If the Jews were to lose property in war do they still get to claim the property is theirs? What about Palestinian losses? Do they still have a right to claim property they lost in war? Were the allies, Stalin, Roosevelt, and Churchill right to carve up Europe and give out the properties to whoever they wanted to give the property to? Was Russia right to give itself 10 formerly free nations as a result of its participation in WW2?
Click to expand...

What happened after WW2 was that the Geneva Conventions etc were written up and became the legal standard for the actions/situations that arise as a result of warfare. So whatever happened before that happened and was not governed by them, obviously

In 1948 the Geneva Conventions set out the concept that it is " inadmissible to acquire territory through warfare " , meaning you can't annex ,to your country , any territory occupied via a war/conflict.

Israel is a signatory to that agreement and thus cannot be taken seriously when making claims regarding the territories it captured as a result of the 1967 war.

Might is right.................. is a very very poor concept for trying to secure/maintain international peace , in fact I think it's a poor concept in many situations. That you appear to be an advocate of it tells me a lot about where your moral compass is and why you promote the ideas you do
 
oneworld2 said:
What happened after WW2 was that the Geneva Conventions etc were written up and became the legal standard for the actions/situations that arise as a result of warfare. So whatever happened before that happened and was not governed by them, obviously

In 1948 the Geneva Conventions set out the concept that it is " inadmissible to acquire territory through warfare " , meaning you can't annex ,to your country , any territory occupied via a war/conflict.

Israel is a signatory to that agreement and thus cannot be taken seriously when making claims regarding the territories it captured as a result of the 1967 war.

Might is right.................. is a very very poor concept for trying to secure/maintain international peace , in fact I think it's a poor concept in many situations. That you appear to be an advocate of it tells me a lot about where your moral compass is and why you promote the ideas you do
Click to expand...

Interesting.... The land Israel took control of in 1967 was not Palestinian land but Egyption and Jordanian land taken in 1948...

Now why didn't those 1948 restrictions apply to Egypt.and Jordan?
 
Fledermaus said:
Interesting.... The land Israel took control of in 1967 was not Palestinian land but Egyption and Jordanian land taken in 1948...

................Now why didn't those 1948 restrictions apply to Egypt.and Jordan?
Click to expand...



Once again your complete lack of knowledge of this subject and the applicable legal considerations sticks out like white balls on a black dog

Jordan's attempted annexation of the West Bank was briefly supported by only 3 countries and then Jordan changed it's tune to a position of holding the territory in trust until the Palestinian problem was resolved . Egypt never tried to annexe Gaza and acted as an administrator only, also pending a resolution of the conflict

Your question , born out of a staggering ignorance , has been answered in the above........................ IE the " restrictions " DID apply
 
oneworld2 said:
Once again your complete lack of knowledge of this subject and the applicable legal considerations sticks out like white balls on a black dog

Jordan's attempted annexation of the West Bank was briefly supported by only 3 countries and then Jordan changed it's tune to a position of holding the territory in trust until the Palestinian problem was resolved . Egypt never tried to annexe Gaza and acted as an administrator only, also pending a resolution of the conflict

Your question , born out of a staggering ignorance , has been answered in the above........................ IE the " restrictions " DID apply
Click to expand...

And yet the West Bank was annexed and part of Jordan from 1948 to 1967 when it was taken by force. Palestinians in the territory was afforded Jordanian citizenship. The West Bank had 30 seats in the Jordanian legislature. Those seats remained until 1988. The Jordanian Dinar was and is legal tender.

It was the Arab League that declared it "temporary".

A joke, really as it could have been ceded over to the Palestinians at any time.

And Jordan didn't surrender claim to the West Bank until 1988.

Please fail again.
 
Fledermaus said:
And yet the West Bank was annexed and part of Jordan from 1948 to 1967 when it was taken by force. Palestinians in the territory was afforded Jordanian citizenship. The West Bank had 30 seats in the Jordanian legislature. Those seats remained until 1988. The Jordanian Dinar was and is legal tender.

It was the Arab League that declared it "temporary".

A joke, really as it could have been ceded over to the Palestinians at any time.

And Jordan didn't surrender claim to the West Bank until 1988.

Please fail again.
Click to expand...

Nope, the "fail" , as is so often the case, is your own but is denied and projected onto another in a classic act of self delusion

Your original question posited was to why the Geneva Convention wasn't applied to the Egyptian control of Gaza and the Jordanian attempted annexation of the West Bank , including East Jerusalem

The answer is that they were , insomuch that only 3 countries in the world supported the Jordanian attempt to annexe the territory and the rest saw it as void , in keeping with the applicable international laws that also apply to Israeli claims

As for Egypt , they never even tried to annexe Gaza so there was never the situation to compare

So your attempt to cry that Israeli claims were being treated differently than the Jordanian claim by the international community , plus your ignorance that there never was an Egyptian claim to begin with , was just rubbish based on ignorance , a fail in your own preferred language

The above being interpreted by you as some sort of victory and the pointing out of the nonsense of it as a failure in as clear an example of self delusion as there is to be witnessed. Hysterical !! :lamo

Now , just to remind you of your own hypocrisy again This thread is about the Military Courts system taking place in the Occupied Territories of Palestine and nothing to do with any Jordanian, Israeli or fictional Egyptian annexation attempts
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom