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Likud Minister Uses IDF Murderer To Bolster Campaign

Evilroddy said:
Fledermaus:

The provenance of the one page released by the IDF is in dispute. The manual from which the page was allegedly taken was purportedly a 102-page booklet but no other pages of the manual have ever been released by the IDF as far as I can tell. The released page lacks the logo of Hamas and the militant branch of that organisation which is almost always found on such publications. The timing of the find was very fortuitous for the IDF and the State of Israel coming as it did in 2014 in the midst of global condemnation for the many Palestinian deaths and injuries caused by Israel that year as it mowed the lawn in Gaza. The Reuters news service was very cagey about reporting the release of this page from the title of its report to the qualifiers sprinkled throughout its report on the Israeli claim.

Israel says it found Hamas training manual in Gaza | Reuters

Proceed with caution.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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When one combines what is said in the transcript with what happened you see a parallel...
 
Fledermaus said:
When one combines what is said in the transcript with what happened you see a parallel...
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Fledermaus:

If the transcript and its source documents are real you may have a point. But if they are disinformation documents created by the Israeli state, then not so much. As you know in war the first casualty is often truth.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
Fledermaus:

If the transcript and its source documents are real you may have a point. But if they are disinformation documents created by the Israeli state, then not so much. As you know in war the first casualty is often truth.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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We know by history and the writings of Amnesty International et al that the weapons are stored in the very same places innocent civilians gather....

It is known. It is Gaza wide IIRC. It is SOP.

Why is it so hard to imagine Hamas would not document such in their writings?
 
Fledermaus said:
We know by history and the writings of Amnesty International et al that the weapons are stored in the very same places innocent civilians gather....

It is known. It is Gaza wide IIRC. It is SOP.

Why is it so hard to imagine Hamas would not document such in their writings?
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Fledermaus:

Many nations involved in resisting military attack and occupation have hidden weapons and ordinance in and around civilian targets throughout history and the Palestinians are no exception.For example the UK did this in 1940 as it prepared for the expected air and naval assaults from the Third Reich in the aftermath of the fall of France. Likewise the Israeli militants did this during their armed resistance against the British in the Mandate of Palestine.

It is not hard to "imagine" but it is harder to prove and therefore to therefore "know"; especially if the documentation you cite is of suspect provenance and could have been produced by the other side in the conflict right after that other side voluntarily launched a huge and very lethal punitive raid into a besieged enclave of their enemies, causing large numbers of civilian deaths and injuries.

Proceed with caution.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
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Evilroddy said:
Fledermaus:

Many nations involved in resisting military attack and occupation have hidden weapons and ordinance in and around civilian targets throughout history and the Palestinians are no exception.For example the UK did this in 1940 as it prepared for the expected air and naval assaults from the Third Reich in the aftermath of the fall of France. Likewise the Israeli militants did this during their armed resistance against the British in the Mandate of Palestine.

It is not hard to "imagine" but it is harder to prove and therefore to therefore "know"; especially if the documentation you cite is of suspect provenance and could have been produced by the other side in the conflict right after that other side voluntarily launched a huge and very lethal punitive raid into a besieged enclave of their enemies, causing large numbers of civilian deaths and injuries.

Proceed with caution.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Come on Roddy.

Hamas did not innocently hide munitions... They openly fired munitions from in/near civilian/public buildings and sites.

Then they cried to the world the Israel were "indiscriminately" killing Palestinian civilians.

Their human shields are dual purpose. It limits IDF reaction at the same time it provides propaganda....
 
Fledermaus said:
Come on Roddy.

Hamas did not innocently hide munitions... They openly fired munitions from in/near civilian/public buildings and sites.

Then they cried to the world the Israel were "indiscriminately" killing Palestinian civilians.

Their human shields are dual purpose. It limits IDF reaction at the same time it provides propaganda....
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Fledermaus:

The tactics of Hamas which you declaim are the same tactics used by the Soviets in defending their motherland from European invasion and which were lauded in allied American newsreels of the time. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Maybe Gaza is the 21st century's Stalingrad or Leningrad? Things look different from the other side of the struggle.

Canadian and British soldiers and gunners often deployed and fired anti-tank guns and artillery over open sights in built up areas of France and the Low Countries in 1944-45, doing so in buildings where civilians were even hunkering down. These gunners were lauded as heroes in battles like Putot-en-Bessin and Norrey-en-Bessin for doing exactly what Hamas is doing to German Panthers and Panzergrenadies which were counter-attacking the Commonwealth troops on June 7-10th, 1944. The Germans called them monsters executing some of them and our side idolised them and declaimed the executions. Thus is the nature of war, which leaves little ground for unbiased positions.

Israel and the IDF must take responsibility for the civilians they maim and kill just as Hamas must do for those they wound and kill.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
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Fledermaus said:
Captured Hamas Combat Manual Explains Benefits of Human Shields

IDF forces in the Gaza Strip found a Hamas manual on "Urban Warfare", which belonged to the Shuja’iya Brigade of Hamas’ military wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades. The manual explains how the civilian population can be used against IDF forces and reveals that Hamas knows the IDF is committed to minimizing harm to civilians.

Throughout Operation Protective Edge, Hamas has continuously used the civilian population of Gaza as human shields. The discovery of a Hamas "urban warfare" manual by IDF forces reveals that Hamas’ callous use of the Gazan population was intentional and preplanned.

This Hamas urban warfare manual exposes two truths: (1) The terror group knows full well that the IDF will do what it can to limit civilian casualties. (2) The terror group exploits these efforts by using civilians as human shields against advancing IDF forces.

Captured Hamas Combat Manual Explains Benefits of Human Shields

Hamas admits to it.
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So having failed to support your claim that all of the HR groups support the Israeli claim that Hamas repeatedly uses Gazan non combatants as human shields, you decide to go to thw most ridiculous source to try to back it up lol

The IDF has been caught lying over so many things it's untrue. They are pathological liars and have been outed for it many many times. But that's what you do , use woefully bad sources and try to fool people they have some credibility. That's of course when you are using third party ones but claiming to cite the original.

You might want to send a CV off to them outlining the fine work you are doing here in misrepresentations :roll:

Nobody has verified the authenticity of that alleged " manual "........no independent source..... it might well be the IDF version of the Protocols of the Elders of Hamas

Maybe the Orange County Skinheads will find a "manual "used by the Black Panther party outlining their plans to take over the US and enslave " whitey "
 
oneworld2 said:
So having failed to support your claim that all of the HR groups support the Israeli claim that Hamas repeatedly uses Gazan non combatants as human shields, you decide to go to thw most ridiculous source to try to back it up lol

The IDF has been caught lying over so many things it's untrue. They are pathological liars and have been outed for it many many times. But that's what you do , use woefully bad sources and try to fool people they have some credibility. That's of course when you are using third party ones but claiming to cite the original.

You might want to send a CV off to them outlining the fine work you are doing here in misrepresentations :roll:

Nobody has verified the authenticity of that alleged " manual "........no independent source..... it might well be the IDF version of the Protocols of the Elders of Hamas

Maybe the Orange County Skinheads will find a "manual "used by the Black Panther party outlining their plans to take over the US and enslave " whitey "
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All that typing simply to say "I refuse to believe it even if everyone admits Hamas does it".
 
Evilroddy said:
Fledermaus:

The tactics of Hamas which you declaim are the same tactics used by the Soviets in defending their motherland from European invasion and which were lauded in allied American newsreels of the time. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Maybe Gaza is the 21st century's Stalingrad or Leningrad? Things look different from the other side of the struggle.

Canadian and British soldiers and gunners often deployed and fired anti-tank guns and artillery over open sights in built up areas of France and the Low Countries in 1944-45, doing so in buildings where civilians were even hunkering down. These gunners were lauded as heroes in battles like Putot-en-Bessin and Norrey-en-Bessin for doing exactly what Hamas is doing to German Panthers and Panzergrenadies which were counter-attacking the Commonwealth troops on June 7-10th, 1944. The Germans called them monsters executing some of them and our side idolised them and declaimed the executions. Thus is the nature of war, which leaves little ground for unbiased positions.

Israel and the IDF must take responsibility for the civilians they maim and kill just as Hamas must do for those they wound and kill.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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A few things have changed in the laws of war since then...... Right?
 
Fledermaus said:
Intentional ignorance noted.

You have been taught, but you refuse to learn.

That is a you problem...
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The only thing you have " taught " me is what I already knew was true. That you will make a whole host of claims on this subject , most of which will be false and based on ignorance

You were asked to give a source 3 times and have refused

You have used third party accounts and tried to pass them off as coming from the original groups report

Engaged in endless goal post shifting , deliberate misrepresentations and straw men and out right lies
 
Fledermaus said:
A few things have changed in the laws of war since then...... Right?
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Fledermaus:

Yes. John Bolton has announced on behalf of America that it has rejected the International Criminal Court's attempts to universally enforce the Nuremburg principles founded by Allied jurists including Americans on Isreal and America's other allies, as well as America itself. So you're right. A lot has changed. But not for the better.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
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oneworld2 said:
The only thing you have " taught " me is what I already knew was true. That you will make a whole host of claims on this subject , most of which will be false and based on ignorance

You were asked to give a source 3 times and have refused

You have used third party accounts and tried to pass them off as coming from the original groups report

Engaged in endless goal post shifting , deliberate misrepresentations and straw men and out right lies
Click to expand...

Your intentional ignorance in regards to the actions of Hamas is amusing to watch.

You are free to download the entire Amnesty International report if you really cared.

But we both know you won't.

There are pages addressed to the question of storing and firing weapons from churches, mosques, hospitals and schools.... As to human shields you can see AI twist itself into knots trying to say it wasn't when it clearly was.
 
Evilroddy said:
Fledermaus:

Yes. John Bolton has announced on behalf of America that it has rejected the International criminal Court's attempts to enforce the Nuremburg principles founded by Allied jurists including Americans on Isreal and America's other allies, as well as America itself. So you're right. A lot has changed. But not for the better.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Hey, look. An irrelevant statement.
 
Fledermaus said:
All that typing simply to say "I refuse to believe it even if everyone admits Hamas does it".
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The challenge is still open.................. you claimed all of the HR reports support the claim that Hamas engages in the widespread use of human shields when the truth is they have investigated the claims , and apart from fighting in urban areas ( which is not illegal anyhow ) they have not supported that claim

That's why you use dodgy sources that commentate on their reports without offering the links so people can check the veracity of that commentary. The NY Post was voted most unreliable news source in NY. You use the official Israeli propaganda organisation or the IDF Blog lol

It's very easy to just go on the HR sites themselves and find out/quote............. but that your undermine your claim , so you use partisan hack sites that have applied their spin to things

You want to believe the wholly discredited IDF then be prepared for a torrid time in any future exchanges................................. let's hope for your sake that they never find an ancient alien manuscript showing that the moon is made from cheese , Cheddar cheese as it happens
 
Fledermaus said:
Hey, look. An irrelevant statement.
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Fledermaus:

Nope. An answer to the question you yourself posed in post # 334. If you don't want irrelevant answers, then don't ask irrelevant questions.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Fledermaus said:
There are pages addressed to the question of storing and firing weapons from churches, mosques, hospitals and schools.... As to human shields you can see AI twist itself into knots trying to say it wasn't when it clearly was.
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Just like the other groups , but unlike yourself , they understand that there's an armed conflict going on and apply the correct laws . They understand that it is not incumbent on Palestinian combatants to line up like ducks in open fields and that's why they have a different view than you do

But the part I highlighted completely outs your misrepresentation of their view in earlier claims that said they supported the Israeli claims regarding human shields.............. now you are saying they don't in a complete u turn :roll:

Whatever happened to consistency ?
 
OldFatGuy said:
Do you have any idea how boring your schtick is? Over and over, repeating the same lies. Show some creativity, come up with some lies that are more entertaining.
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If it's boring you , why not just ignore it and have a little nap ?
 
Fledermaus said:
A few things have changed in the laws of war since then...... Right?
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Carry on

Recall you struggled even understanding that the laws of war were being used by the HR groups in their assessments of the conflict in the first place
 
oneworld2 said:
The challenge is still open.................. you claimed all of the HR reports support the claim that Hamas engages in the widespread use of human shields when the truth is they have investigated the claims , and apart from fighting in urban areas ( which is not illegal anyhow ) they have not supported that claim

That's why you use dodgy sources that commentate on their reports without offering the links so people can check the veracity of that commentary. The NY Post was voted most unreliable news source in NY. You use the official Israeli propaganda organisation or the IDF Blog lol

It's very easy to just go on the HR sites themselves and find out/quote............. but that your undermine your claim , so you use partisan hack sites that have applied their spin to things

You want to believe the wholly discredited IDF then be prepared for a torrid time in any future exchanges................................. let's hope for your sake that they never find an ancient alien manuscript showing that the moon is made from cheese , Cheddar cheese as it happens
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You continue to expend much energy whining about my sources and practicality none in providing sources to back up your claims.
 
oneworld2 said:
Just like the other groups , but unlike yourself , they understand that there's an armed conflict going on and apply the correct laws . They understand that it is not incumbent on Palestinian combatants to line up like ducks in open fields and that's why they have a different view than you do

But the part I highlighted completely outs your misrepresentation of their view in earlier claims that said they supported the Israeli claims regarding human shields.............. now you are saying they don't in a complete u turn :roll:

Whatever happened to consistency ?
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Intentional acts are intentional.

Hamas placed Palestinian civilians in harms way intentionally then cried when the IDF killed Palestinian civilians.
 
oneworld2 said:
Carry on

Recall you struggled even understanding that the laws of war were being used by the HR groups in their assessments of the conflict in the first place
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Why did every HR group speak to the unacceptable practice of intentionally collocating civilians and munition/launching weapons?
 
Fledermaus said:
Why did every HR group speak to the unacceptable practice of intentionally collocating civilians and munition/launching weapons?
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Citations would be useful
 
Fledermaus said:
You continue to expend much energy whining about my sources and practicality none in providing sources to back up your claims.
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just because you insist

wiki said:
Amnesty International, for its part, did not find evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian groups violated the laws of war to the extent repeatedly alleged by Israel during Operation Cast Lead (2009). In particular, it found no evidence that Hamas or other fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield military objectives from attacks. By contrast, Amnesty International did find that Israeli forces on several occasions during Operation Cast Lead forced Palestinian civilians to serve as 'human shields" [39]. According to the Israeli Supreme Court, the Israel Defense Force used civilians as human shields at least 1200 times; most in the form of Israel's "neighbor procedure" where acquaintances would try to convince wanted men to surrender.[40] In one notorious case an Israeli military court suspended two Israeli soldiers for using a Palestinian child as a human shield. [41]
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ibid

wiki said:
The Goldstone Report (which investigated possible war crimes by both sides during OCL) stated that it "did not find any evidence of civilians being forced to remain in their houses by Palestinian armed groups"


. [42] Human Rights Watch also noted that during OCL: "In the cases documented in this report, Human Rights Watch found no evidence of Hamas using human shields in the vicinity at the time of the attacks".[43
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Hamas - RationalWiki

So there's Amnesty , the UN fact finders ( Goldstone ) and HRW on record as finding nothing to support your claim.................. just accept you are wrong in your claim that they did , finally
 
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