US fails to win UN condemnation of Hamas militants in Gaza

OlNate said:

No, I would not. Every thread that attempts to scrutinize Israel ends the same way: Apocalypse and CJ calling everyone anti Semites, and you moving goal posts and making excuses.

Flat out: Do you approve of the tactics of the IDF, in their entirety?

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Well they are not allowed to call everyone antisemites directly , so they are forced to infer it constantly. Other terms fill the void." Supporter of the murder of innocents " , being probably the most common replacement

Glad to see that you too has noticed who is constantly moving goalposts.

Open and honest debate is the real loser here due to the shenanigans mentioned above , sadly

Fledermaus said:

Not all the tactics of the IDF. Human shields for example was wrong of them.

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See! Not so hard.

And every act of terrorism committed by Palestine was a cowardly, piece of **** thing to do as well.

Both sides deserve our condemnation. Both sides. And both sides deserve our pity. Both sides.

We can't talk if we are lying. Thank you for being honest.

OlNate said:

See! Not so hard.

And every act of terrorism committed by Palestine was a cowardly, piece of **** thing to do as well.

Both sides deserve our condemnation. Both sides. And both sides deserve our pity. Both sides.

We can't talk if we are lying. Thank you for being honest.

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There are degrees though.

Again.

On the whole:

One side targets civilians. One side targets the people targeting civilians....

Which are the most perfidious?

oneworld2 said:

Well they are not allowed to call everyone antisemites directly , so they are forced to infer it constantly. Other terms fill the void." Supporter of the murder of innocents " , being probably the most common replacement

Glad to see that you too has noticed who is constantly moving goalposts.

Open and honest debate is the real loser here due to the shenanigans mentioned above , sadly

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He was honest in post #224. That's a start.

oneworld2 said:

Your record is old and tired , not to mention wholly discredited , nobody here with any sense takes your incendiary nonsense seriously , well nobody serious anyway , hopeless partisan hacks/ Islamophobes /Xenophobes aside

Try to incite someone who will fall for your empty rhetoric , I am well wise to it now and ain't gonna bite. Your presence here is a completely negative influence on this subforum imo

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I don't think you speak for anyone.
Your positions are factually in the support of the murder of innocents. All of them.
That is an indisputable truth, and your empty denial was never able to change that.

Fledermaus said:

Not all the tactics of the IDF. Human shields for example was wrong of them.

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Was implies past tense , like as though it has'nt happened since it ceased to be official IDF policy. That would be incorrect seeing as it has happened and will happen again

That it was EVER official IDF policy should tell people something. That it was stopped by HR groups challenging it should TELL people something. That the IDF actually APPEALED the DECISION should also tell people something

OlNate said:

He was honest in post #224. That's a start.

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Did he have a choice ? Really

Can you imagine anyone here claiming that the use of human shields is righteous/honourable ?

OlNate said:

We can't talk if we are lying. .

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Or being constantly misrepresented

Is there a chance to shame people into honest debate here ? lol

Fledermaus said:

There are degrees though.

Again.

On the whole:

One side targets civilians. One side targets the people targeting civilians....

Which are the most perfidious?

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It's irrelevant, and subjective, depending on what statistics you're looking at. Far more Palestinians have died than Israelis. Far more. And yet, that doesn't excuse Palestine's atrocities either.

I personally believe one of the biggest problems in the Middle East is foreign support. Without it, this would have blown itself out a long time ago. But foreign interests keep this going as much as the religious fervor and pig headed stubbornness on both sides.

We need to stop holding Israel to a different standard. We need to withdraw ALL support, until Israel commits to humane treatment of Palestinian criminals and human policing tactics, and subjects itself to constant oversight until it is firmly established that humane treatment is cemented into Israel's culture.

And the exact same thing should be said about Palestine - well, not exactly the same, they're not the government, but you know what I mean. There must be no further support for anyone who engages in human rights violations, no matter who commits them, or for what reason.

Oh, but what about Israel's "right to exist"...? If they are concerned about their existence, then playing ball should be an easy decision for them. I'm sick of funding their atrocities. And if they prove that they are NOT engaging in that behavior, then what to do with Palestine becomes a much less complicated affair.

oneworld2 said:

Did he have a choice ? Really

Can you imagine anyone here claiming that the use of human shields is righteous/honourable ?

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oneworld2 said:

Or being constantly misrepresented

Is there a chance to shame people into honest debate here ? lol

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My friend, when someone is willing to be honest, even if only for a moment, the best course of action is to let them, and see where things go from there. I disagree with Fleder about a lot of things, but he isn't the propagandist others are, and I believe he can engage in civil, reasonable discussion. I could be wrong...we'll see...but you should at least give him a chance.

OlNate said:

It's irrelevant, and subjective, depending on what statistics you're looking at. Far more Palestinians have died than Israelis. Far more. And yet, that doesn't excuse Palestine's atrocities either.

I personally believe one of the biggest problems in the Middle East is foreign support. Without it, this would have blown itself out a long time ago. But foreign interests keep this going as much as the religious fervor and pig headed stubbornness on both sides.

We need to stop holding Israel to a different standard. We need to withdraw ALL support, until Israel commits to humane treatment of Palestinian criminals and human policing tactics, and subjects itself to constant oversight until it is firmly established that humane treatment is cemented into Israel's culture.

And the exact same thing should be said about Palestine - well, not exactly the same, they're not the government, but you know what I mean. There must be no further support for anyone who engages in human rights violations, no matter who commits them, or for what reason.

Oh, but what about Israel's "right to exist"...? If they are concerned about their existence, then playing ball should be an easy decision for them. I'm sick of funding their atrocities. And if they prove that they are NOT engaging in that behavior, then what to do with Palestine becomes a much less complicated affair.

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The question isn't how many are killed, it's how many innocents are targeted for murder.
Your logic is a very flawed one, as is your nonexisting sense of morality.

Fledermaus said:

I am not the ignorant one in regards to the definition of terrorism and the application to attacks such as TARGETING CIVILIANS BY DESIGN...

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Goalpost shift number 313

I asked you , if you class throwing stones at SOLDIERS ( NOTE NOT CIVILIANS=goalpost shift ) as terrorism , what is not terrorism ?

So no you have not answered it but dishonestly tried to use a goalpost shift in a bid to claim you have

Try reading for comprehension rather than response.

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Nothing wrong with my reading comprehension , as shown above. A whole lot wrong with your penchant for dishonest debating imo

oneworld2 said:

Was implies past tense , like as though it has'nt happened since it ceased to be official IDF policy. That would be incorrect seeing as it has happened and will happen again

That it was EVER official IDF policy should tell people something. That it was stopped by HR groups challenging it should TELL people something. That the IDF actually APPEALED the DECISION should also tell people something

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Was means was. As in was.

And hasn't there been IDF punished for using human shields? Why yes.

What Palestinians have been punished for using their own people as human shields?

None.

oneworld2 said:

Goalpost shift number 313

I asked you , if you class throwing stones at SOLDIERS ( NOTE NOT CIVILIANS=goalpost shift ) as terrorism , what is not terrorism ?

So no you have not answered it but dishonestly tried to use a goalpost shift in a bid to claim you have

Nothing wrong with my reading comprehension , as shown above. A whole lot wrong with your penchant for dishonest debating imo

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What is terrorism?

Reread the UN definition of terrorism.

Reread the US definition of terrorism.

Reread any other definition of terrorism that strikes your fancy.

You asked for legitimate targets. Asked and answered.

OlNate said:

It's irrelevant, and subjective, depending on what statistics you're looking at. Far more Palestinians have died than Israelis. Far more. And yet, that doesn't excuse Palestine's atrocities either.

I personally believe one of the biggest problems in the Middle East is foreign support. Without it, this would have blown itself out a long time ago. But foreign interests keep this going as much as the religious fervor and pig headed stubbornness on both sides.

We need to stop holding Israel to a different standard. We need to withdraw ALL support, until Israel commits to humane treatment of Palestinian criminals and human policing tactics, and subjects itself to constant oversight until it is firmly established that humane treatment is cemented into Israel's culture.

And the exact same thing should be said about Palestine - well, not exactly the same, they're not the government, but you know what I mean. There must be no further support for anyone who engages in human rights violations, no matter who commits them, or for what reason.

Oh, but what about Israel's "right to exist"...? If they are concerned about their existence, then playing ball should be an easy decision for them. I'm sick of funding their atrocities. And if they prove that they are NOT engaging in that behavior, then what to do with Palestine becomes a much less complicated affair.

Click to expand...

Lets lay it out in the open.

Israel ceded Gaza back to the Palestinians. How did they respond? By turning Gaza into an armed camp from which to launch thousands of attacks on Israel. Gaza is a ****hole now due to decisions made by Hamas and other factions. Israel is blamed for blowing up infrastructure in Gaza. Fair enough. A legitimate statement. But that same infrastructure remains decrepit due to MILLIONS in aid to the Palestinians being diverted to more rockets, more tunnels and more mortars with which to attack Israel.

What incentive does Israel have to give more land away?

If Hamas chose peace instead of constant attacks how do you believe Gaza would be now?

OlNate said:

My friend, when someone is willing to be honest, even if only for a moment, the best course of action is to let them, and see where things go from there. I disagree with Fleder about a lot of things, but he isn't the propagandist others are, and I believe he can engage in civil, reasonable discussion. I could be wrong...we'll see...but you should at least give him a chance.

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I think we all have different experiences here and I have a different experience of this poster. I am a firm believer that what was never reasoned in will never be reasoned out , as I said before.

For my scepticism see post 237 and I can give you another 10 examples of that and worse in just the last few days

I can respect that you have a different view and hope on this and actually hope you will be proven right. I still think that the test of honesty regarding the human shield issue was a no brainer but hey , I can stick with the programme

Fledermaus said:

What is terrorism?

Reread the UN definition of terrorism.

Reread the US definition of terrorism.

Reread any other definition of terrorism that strikes your fancy.

You asked for legitimate targets. Asked and answered.

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If occupying military soldiers are not legitimate targets , which is the logical conclusion of your insistence they if they are stoned it is terrorism , then what are ?

Apocalypse said:

The question isn't how many are killed, it's how many innocents are targeted for murder.
Your logic is a very flawed one, as is your nonexisting sense of morality.

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You cannot "target" people with weapons that cannot be targeted properly. A child would understand this much. That's why the rockets and mortars from Gaza are classed as indiscriminate attacks and thus war crimes

And

If you claim to be targeting the queen bee by blowing up the hive , knowing it will kill a great many if not all of the " innocent bees " ( the only logical conclusion of such an attack ) then you too are guilty of an indiscriminate attack and thus war crimes.

That's the correct criteria according to the correct set of laws applicable to the conflict. Your commentary suffers dreadfully because you wish to avoid/ignore this

Fledermaus said:

Lets lay it out in the open.

Israel ceded Gaza back to the Palestinians. How did they respond? By turning Gaza into an armed camp from which to launch thousands of attacks on Israel. Gaza is a ****hole now due to decisions made by Hamas and other factions. Israel is blamed for blowing up infrastructure in Gaza. Fair enough. A legitimate statement. But that same infrastructure remains decrepit due to MILLIONS in aid to the Palestinians being diverted to more rockets, more tunnels and more mortars with which to attack Israel.

What incentive does Israel have to give more land away?

If Hamas chose peace instead of constant attacks how do you believe Gaza would be now?

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Fleder, that's a conversation to have AFTER the atrocities stop. That's kind of my point. The whole thing is a sordid, complicated affair. But until Israel joins the civilized world, by adopting our most basic standards of how we treat human beings, they do not deserve the civilized world's support. Neither do the Palestinians. Send in the Red Cross (or Crescent) to mop up the mess, but not a single dollar sent to EITHER side, not a single soldier sent in their defense, not a single threat made in the UN. Nothing. Until they grow up!

Once one or both sides have passed muster, in terms of not being psychopaths, then we can assist in helping unravel the mess that lead to this...or find a way to bury it and move on. But I don't care about their claims, so long as they engage in the kind of behavior we're talking about here, where "their" refers to either side. And you better believe both sides have a good claim to that bombed out, garbage plot of land that people can't seem to stop fighting over. Personally I don't care who ends up running the place...I honestly don't, I don't couldn't care one iota less than I currently do. I just want to the killing to stop, and I REALLY want to stop funding the killing, in the form of financial support to Israel (as far as I know, Canada doesn't send payments to Palestine).

And if they can't figure it out, **** 'em. Let as many of the clear headed ones, who are sick of this ****, on both sides, come across as refugees, and let it be the hunger games for the rest. If after 70 years these people can't get their **** together with our help, let them sort it out without our help, turn our backs, and see what's left when the dust settles. If they are bound and determined to kill each other, let them. On their own dime. And help the people who want to get out because they are as sick of it as we are.

I don't think it's a bad thing to say "We'll help you, but you must demonstrate first that we are not helping you do things that are against our values".

Fledermaus said:

Was means was. As in was.

And hasn't there been IDF punished for using human shields? Why yes.

What Palestinians have been punished for using their own people as human shields?

None.

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What don't you understand about the fact that this was........................... official army policy that was only ended by a persistent challenge by HR groups who eventually won the case only to see the IDF launch an appeal against the decision ?

Name me another army on the planet that has an official policy to use a people it illegally occupies as human shields

Put all of this together and what do we see..................... the " punishment " for those using kids and anyone else as human shields is being demoted etc..................... it's a sham and you wish to portray it as something different

Fledermaus said:

Lets lay it out in the open.

Israel ceded Gaza back to the Palestinians. How did they respond? By turning Gaza into an armed camp from which to launch thousands of attacks on Israel. Gaza is a ****hole now due to decisions made by Hamas and other factions. Israel is blamed for blowing up infrastructure in Gaza. Fair enough. A legitimate statement. But that same infrastructure remains decrepit due to MILLIONS in aid to the Palestinians being diverted to more rockets, more tunnels and more mortars with which to attack Israel.

What incentive does Israel have to give more land away?

If Hamas chose peace instead of constant attacks how do you believe Gaza would be now?

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After Israel gave Gaza and in return got rockets the lands for peace idea is off the table, that was a turning point. As Gaza situation shows the lands are not the problem, the presence of Jews in Israel is the problem.

oneworld2 said:

What don't you understand about the fact that this was........................... official army policy that was only ended by a persistent challenge by HR groups who eventually won the case only to see the IDF launch an appeal against the decision ?

Name me another army on the planet that has an official policy to use a people it illegally occupies as human shields

Put all of this together and what do we see..................... the " punishment " for those using kids and anyone else as human shields is being demoted etc..................... it's a sham and you wish to portray it as something different

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Was still means was. Quite a while ago in fact.

Does the word "was" register?

Was. No longer is. Ceased to be. Ended.

Was.

Now, what is Hamas' stance on human shields?

Fledermaus said:

Was still means was. Quite a while ago in fact.

Does the word "was" register?

Was. No longer is. Ceased to be. Ended.

Was.

Now, what is Hamas' stance on human shields?

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Did the word " sham " register ?

and

You can run but you can't hide....................

If occupying military soldiers are not legitimate targets , which is the logical conclusion of your insistence they if they are stoned it is terrorism , then what are ?

oneworld2 said:

You cannot "target" people with weapons that cannot be targeted properly. A child would understand this much. That's why the rockets and mortars from Gaza are classed as indiscriminate attacks and thus war crimes

And

If you claim to be targeting the queen bee by blowing up the hive , knowing it will kill a great many if not all of the " innocent bees " ( the only logical conclusion of such an attack ) then you too are guilty of an indiscriminate attack and thus war crimes.

That's the correct criteria according to the correct set of laws applicable to the conflict. Your commentary suffers dreadfully because you wish to avoid/ignore this

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You can target a civilian center... Hamas does that.

Fledermaus said:

You can target a civilian center... Hamas does that.

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They can't even ensure that the rockets don't kill their own people and never leave Gaza ffs They are completely indiscriminate weapons fired in the direction of Israel in the context of an ongoing armed conflict. Hence the correct call that they are indiscriminate attacks and thus war crimes

This isn't hard to understand