"A response to Netanyahu and a Correction from the Journal of Palestine Studies "

oneworld2 · Nov 5, 2018

I think this deserved a thread of its own so made one for it

In a recent thread a posts content made basically the following claim that.................. Hamas had forced children to dig terror tunnels for it and that 160 of them had died as a result.

The claim was allegedly cited from a study written by Nicolas Pelham and English journalist from which a subsequent article appeared in the Journal Of Palestinian Studies ( JOPS ) , an outfit that hails from the University of California

Needless to say when the claim was made by Netanyahu in a press release and repeated in other media outlets that included the Jerusalem Post and the Times of Israel the JOPS issued a letter of correction for a mistake in the figures given and a response to Netanyahus " fabrication ".

It turns out that the figures given , 160 , were the total number of people killed in the construction of the tunnels of which 9 were children , not 160 as had previously been claimed

The tunnels that were referred to in the study were " commercial enterprises " that crossed the Egyptian/Gaza border and not the Gazan/Israeli border

Although some Hamas members did invest in the project as private investors ( along with ex Fatah people and many others ) the claim infers it was an official Hamas run and operated programme when the JOPS cited the report as relaying the following view. That the tunnels were " overwhelmingly private enterprises, which were regulated by but largely not owned or operated by Hamas "

The JOPS , clearly ruffled by their mistake and the misuse of their article on the report , opined that " This naked fabrication has been repeated by numerous pro-
Israeli media outlets "

They end the piece with what I feel is a powerful and passionate statement on what they consider to be true overriding threat to the children of not only Gaza but the West Bank including East Jerusalem

Let there be no doubt, then, about the true source of threat to Palestinian children whether in Gaza, East Jerusalem or the West Bank. It is Israel, with its occupation, siege and perpetual resort, with its U.S. -provided war machine, to overwhelming force against the very population for whose safety and wellbeing it is responsible both morally and as the occupying power under international law

Full details of all material referenced in the above here..................

https://palestine-studies.org/sites/default/files/response to netanyahu and correction 28 Aug 14.pdf

Crovax · Nov 5, 2018

oneworld2 said:
I think this deserved a thread of its own so made one for it

In a recent thread a posts content made basically the following claim that.................. Hamas had forced children to dig terror tunnels for it and that 160 of them had died as a result.

The claim was allegedly cited from a study written by Nicolas Pelham and English journalist from which a subsequent article appeared in the Journal Of Palestinian Studies ( JOPS ) , an outfit that hails from the University of California

Needless to say when the claim was made by Netanyahu in a press release and repeated in other media outlets that included the Jerusalem Post and the Times of Israel the JOPS issued a letter of correction for a mistake in the figures given and a response to Netanyahus " fabrication ".

It turns out that the figures given , 160 , were the total number of people killed in the construction of the tunnels of which 9 were children , not 160 as had previously been claimed

The tunnels that were referred to in the study were " commercial enterprises " that crossed the Egyptian/Gaza border and not the Gazan/Israeli border

Although some Hamas members did invest in the project as private investors ( along with ex Fatah people and many others ) the claim infers it was an official Hamas run and operated programme when the JOPS cited the report as relaying the following view. That the tunnels were " overwhelmingly private enterprises, which were regulated by but largely not owned or operated by Hamas "

The JOPS , clearly ruffled by their mistake and the misuse of their article on the report , opined that " This naked fabrication has been repeated by numerous pro-
Israeli media outlets "

They end the piece with what I feel is a powerful and passionate statement on what they consider to be true overriding threat to the children of not only Gaza but the West Bank including East Jerusalem

Full details of all material referenced in the above here..................

https://palestine-studies.org/sites/default/files/response to netanyahu and correction 28 Aug 14.pdf

The only response I am allowed to give that falls within the draconian rules of this subforum

:roll:

oneworld2 · Nov 5, 2018

Crovax said:
The only response I am allowed to give that falls within the draconian rules of this subforum

:roll:

How lucky was I being saved from your methodical debunking of the information contained in that post solely on the grounds of the rules of this subforum ? :mrgreen:

CJ 2.0 · Nov 5, 2018

oneworld2 said:
How lucky was I being saved from your methodical debunking of the information contained in that post solely on the grounds of the rules of this subforum ? :mrgreen:

A few things.

1. I agree that tunnels going into Egypt have been largely commercial. There has been a bit of movement into Egypt for terrorist-related purposes and certainly some arms came in, but the tunnel operation in the south had a very substantial commercial component to them.

2. Relying on this Palestine Studies thing falls into the trap of doing what you said you won't do - relying on Hamas for information. Any and all casualty figures coming out of Gaza come from Hamas. So if Hamas admits that x number of militants have died certainly it can be used as a minimum (as it is an expression against interests) but any information that would be put out for any reason whatsoever advantageous to Hamas cannot for one second be viewed as supported or accurate without third party objective verification. There are no checks and balances, no free media, and no culture of Truth in Hamas-run Gaza, and if Hamas says zero children have ever died in their tunnels or 10 children or 100, there is no reason to believe that their claim is a true maximum. And you said so yourself in the thread we are now branching off from.

3. As for the propaganda quote at the end of the article, some might infer from this protest that the publication got into a spot of trouble both with Hamas and with their donor classes, let alone publishing something that was not consistent with their political objectives, such that they felt a need to walk it back. Sorry for saying [fact which we previously concluded was true], in reality [we believe the opposite without support] and [would like to reiterate our political position that those assisted by the facts that we previously provided are assholes]. The quote which you think helps your argument actually completely undermines it.

oneworld2 · Nov 6, 2018

CJ 2.0 said:
A few things.

That don't actually refute anything wrt the facts , sure

1. I agree that tunnels going into Egypt have been largely commercial. There has been a bit of movement into Egypt for terrorist-related purposes and certainly some arms came in, but the tunnel operation in the south had a very substantial commercial component to them.

So Netanyahus reference to " terror tunnels " and the inference that it is Hamas that is the operator of them in the 2014 press conference and his citing of the Journal of Palestinian Studies for them was clearly a , to use the words of the JPS themselves , " fabrication " used for propaganda purposes

2. Relying on this Palestine Studies thing falls into the trap of doing what you said you won't do - relying on Hamas for information. Any and all casualty figures coming out of Gaza come from Hamas. So if Hamas admits that x number of militants have died certainly it can be used as a minimum (as it is an expression against interests) but any information that would be put out for any reason whatsoever advantageous to Hamas cannot for one second be viewed as supported or accurate without third party objective verification. There are no checks and balances, no free media, and no culture of Truth in Hamas-run Gaza, and if Hamas says zero children have ever died in their tunnels or 10 children or 100, there is no reason to believe that their claim is a true maximum. And you said so yourself in the thread we are now branching off from.

I have already given a secondary source in the form of a Al Mazan notification on the number of casualties claimed by the tunnel constructions dated May 2013 ( a year before Netanyahus comments btw ) that shows very similar figures to those given by Hamas regarding the deaths of children. So the charge that I have relied upon Hamas for information is just plainly wrong. Sure you can dismiss it if you want to and probably will because , after all , you believe Arabs are dishonest so it wouldn't matter if I provided another 20

Its actually quite instructive that you are only wanting to focus on the alleged unreliability of Arab sources whilst at the same time attempting ( poorly ) to whitewash the well documented distortions within Netanyahus comments . Arab sources needing a third party endorsement presumably because they are inherently dishonest but documented Israeli dishonesty is obviously to be ignored and their credentials as honest brokers of the facts left to go unchallenged

3. As for the propaganda quote at the end of the article, some might infer from this protest that the publication got into a spot of trouble both with Hamas and with their donor classes, let alone publishing something that was not consistent with their political objectives, such that they felt a need to walk it back. Sorry for saying [fact which we previously concluded was true], in reality [we believe the opposite without support] and [would like to reiterate our political position that those assisted by the facts that we previously provided are assholes]. The quote which you think helps your argument actually completely undermines it.

For sure they would have been troubled by their mistake and the backlash that followed but that doesn't change the fact Israel has killed vastly more children in Palestine than Hamas has. So the JPS charge that the state of Israel is the greatest danger to the lives of children living in Gaza is still valid . The option of agreeing a long term ceasefire with Hamas was/is always on the table so opting to " mow the lawn " instead only confirms it further imo

"A response to Netanyahu and a Correction from the Journal of Palestine Studies "

oneworld2

Handsome Pitbull

Crovax

oneworld2

Handsome Pitbull

CJ 2.0

oneworld2

Handsome Pitbull