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[W:348]Terror Tunnels ?

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:
First of all my " sympathy " is for the Palestinians generally and not for Hamas in particular. They have decided that they don't wish to give up their legitimate right to resist Israeli occupation/siege /mass rights violations. That is their right and although I don't agree with a great many of their actions/activities I don't think that people have the nerve or justifications for telling them what rights they can have and what rights they can't
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Read your post again, all you did is sympathizing with Hamas, and if you still don’t see it replace Hamas by ISIS, I think it will solve it . If you truly “care” about the Gazans you would address Hamas for scarifying their people for the terror goals ever since 2006. But of course you wouldn’t do something like that, all you do is poor pr for this terror group just like the op. And if I also remember right you were the only one who wanted to arm the Palestinians in Gaza, which means arming Hamas, in the previous poll. So I don’t buy this BS.

Now to your inaccurate and , ironically , PR laced post. :roll:

I would refer you and anyone else reading this to see the " correction " letter and the " response to Netanyahu " by the Journal of Palestinian Studies that you referred everyone else to. They would be disgusted to see how you and any other Israeli propagandists are using them to piggyback anti Palestinian sentiments

It took me less than two minutes to find out that the figures given are false and that Netanyahu had shamelessly " fabricated " what tunnels were being referred to in the article he cited

POINT 1

The figure of 160 children is false. The figure of 160 is for ALL deaths in the tunnels as recorded by Hamas officials.( other figures are put at 235 total of which 9 were children ) The Journal of Palestinian Studies issued a correction on this very point. Of the total 9 were children ( still 9 too many imo but the truth is the truth )
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It seems they got scared by Bibi respond which made waves in the world, so they said – “the qualifier “children” was inadvertently introduced by JPS at a late stage of editing”. Sounds like cover up. Also the numbers are according to Hamas officials so it would be very likely the numbers of dead kids are much higher.

POINT 2

The tunnels being referred to are " commercial tunnels " and not " terror tunnels " as stated by Netanyahu in a press conference. The tunnels referred to spanned the border between Egypt and Gaza and not Gaza and Israel
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Lol, I couldn’t care less about how you want to name them. I do care about the poor pr for Hamas that you are doing. Hamas as I showed used these tunnels to send terrorist heavily armed to kibuttz Sufa and the IDF killed them and prevent huge massacre, so don’t try these half-truths as you did, the only reason Hamas didn’t attack civilians with terrorists coming out from tunnels is because they failed, IDF stopped them.

POINT 3

The article describes that the owners and constructors/operators of the tunnels in question are " overwhelmingly private enterprises, which were regulated by but largely
not owned or operated by Hamas."
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And what about the tunnels to Israel? They are also private?
Anyway Hamas controlling Gaza he is responsible of course, and he showed time and again scarifying Gazans children is part of their job.

So , bearing in mind the above , let's have a recap on what Israeli propaganda morphed the facts into.............. or to use NO 1s phrasing............. " Hamas organization sending Gazans children to dig their own grave in the tunnels "

It goes like this............

Hamas is forcing children to dig its terror tunnels and 160 of them have died doing so........... no further comment needed save to say be prepared to see this perversion of the facts in the future in various venues
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As I said the numbers are probably much higher and the article seems like cover-up, from 160 children to 9, I guess Bibi comment helped to that change. Anyway, there are ample evidence of the Hamas using children to their sick goals. But keep cheering for Hamas that proves my point.
Another example of Hamas terrorist killing gazans people (graphic) -
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

NO1 said:
It seems they got scared by Bibi respond which made waves in the world, so they said – “the qualifier “children” was inadvertently introduced by JPS at a late stage of editing”. Sounds like cover up. Also the numbers are according to Hamas officials so it would be very likely the numbers of dead kids are much higher.


As I said the numbers are probably much higher and the article seems like cover-up, from 160 children to 9, I guess Bibi comment helped to that change.
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On Friday, 24th May 2013, at approximately 10:00 pm, medical sources at Abu Yussif Al Najjar Hospital announced the death of Hamada Awda Ghanim Abu Shalouf, 20, a resident of al Salam neighborhood, south of Rafah. Abu Shalouf was dead as a result of suffocation while he was working inside a tunnel in Rafah.Since 2006, it is estimated that the number of persons killed in Tunnel’s accidents has reached 242 persons.Of those, 14 children, and 20 have been killed in Israeli bombing towards the tunnels.In 2013 alone, 12 persons were killed in the tunnels including two children.
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Al Mezan Center For Human Rights

One point at a time


You will likewise dismiss this information from a source other than Hamas but I wouldn't expect anything less tbh

Though the figures are slightly different again they support JOPS corrected figures a whole lot more than they do the claims repeated by Israeli sources
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:
Bigotry and/or poor treatment of minorities are not the sole domain of Muslims/Arabs as you would like us all to believe. Must be a similar view to your " Arabs are dishonest " imo
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No one said either of those things but nice straw men. It isn't the sole domain, by any means, just like antisemitism also very obviously isn't their domain. They just seem to excel at it.

As for dishonesty, again, culture.

Nor are any other religious groups/nationalities free from factional infighting
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Nor is there any dispute that Paris is the capital of France.

Any other "nor is there" points you want to make that have nothing to do with the argument or what is actually being discussed?

Finally your beloved Western nations are traditionally the most ardent and loyal supporters " oppressive Muslim leaderships " so long as they serve their interests
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Well, not really. Who are less ardent supporters of them? The Russians? China? African countries?

And in any event, I know it may make you feel better to somehow blame the west or whatever but your "observation" again isn't actually relevant to what we are talking about.

Notions of superiority nearly always rely on selective amnesia
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Sure. Or objective data. You know, one or the other.
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

stevecanuck said:
I'm not sure "interpretation" is the right word for what you're trying to say. I think "application" is more fitting. There really is no interpretation involved, because, for example, "God is the enemy of infidels (Allah ado al kafareena - 2:98)" means the same thing in Arabic today as it did 1400 years ago. Fringe groups such as the Ismaelis have found a way to pretend such verses no longer apply, and yes I would love to see more of that. Unfortunately, about 85% of Muslims are Sunni, and they consider Ismaelis to be just another kind of infidel. Sunni Islam is the biggest contributor to terrorism and hate, and they have all the muscle, the money, and the minions.

I'll respond to the rest later if I have time.
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Thanks - and yes, application might be better. All religious texts that lack an ability to be explicitly updated have trouble with these sorts of things, and interpretation can certainly work, as it has with the bible which has its share of bad stuff. But yes, a shift in application where there is no nuance would also work.

My understanding about Sunni (which isn't very much) is that the Wahhabi movement back at the turn of the last century took what had become a very determinist, slow and closed society and mobilized it to be aggressively domineering. Might be a way of dialing that back?

Look forward to the rest. Will be nice to actually engage with people about things here.
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

CJ 2.0 said:
No one said either of those things but nice straw men. It isn't the sole domain, by any means, just like antisemitism also very obviously isn't their domain. They just seem to excel at it.

As for dishonesty, again, culture.



Nor is there any dispute that Paris is the capital of France.

Any other "nor is there" points you want to make that have nothing to do with the argument or what is actually being discussed?



Well, not really. Who are less ardent supporters of them? The Russians? China? African countries?

And in any event, I know it may make you feel better to somehow blame the west or whatever but your "observation" again isn't actually relevant to what we are talking about.



Sure. Or objective data. You know, one or the other.
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I always prefer to apply the same standards to all parties , it's the most none bigoted way to view things and when used serves as a good weapon against those that seek to promote negative views of one or other group , the bedrock of the promotion of racism btw

Thanks again for repeating the fact that you think Arabs are dishonest. Thanks also for another observation based on that same type of outlook. That you think that Arabs are somehow " excelling " at " antisemitism As if they are racially predisposed to excel at bigotry . Is the message that not only are they dishonest but that the are racially configured to excel at being hateful too ?

I would wager that if we were able to poll today those millions of victims of the chattel slave trade in its heyday they too would excel in their ability to dislike the people of the white race. That they would excel at it is in no doubt in my mind but I would put it down to their treatment and not to any cultural or racial predisposition to hate. Context matters in analysis , not just " data " and if you don't wish to include it the claim of allegedly adhering to " objective data " ( Data is neither objective nor subjective , that is where how and by whom it is used comes into play ) just becomes all the more ridiculous

It never ceases to amaze when a person can hold such incontestably racist views but , at the same time , constantly harangue every critic of Israeli policies on the ground of an alleged racism.
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

stevecanuck said:
I'm not sure "interpretation" is the right word for what you're trying to say. I think "application" is more fitting. There really is no interpretation involved, because, for example, "God is the enemy of infidels (Allah ado al kafareena - 2:98)" means the same thing in Arabic today as it did 1400 years ago. Fringe groups such as the Ismaelis have found a way to pretend such verses no longer apply, and yes I would love to see more of that. Unfortunately, about 85% of Muslims are Sunni, and they consider Ismaelis to be just another kind of infidel. Sunni Islam is the biggest contributor to terrorism and hate, and they have all the muscle, the money, and the minions.

I'll respond to the rest later if I have time.
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If you wanted to understand the events of 9/11 you would have been better served to read books critical of US foreign policies in the Middle East in particular and the broader Muslim world more generally

Turning to the religious books that are full of negative and/or vicious sentiments towards the adherents of other equally pernicious religious books was the wrong choice imo
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:
I always prefer to apply the same standards to all parties , it's the most none bigoted way to view things and when used serves as a good weapon against those that seek to promote negative views of one or other group , the bedrock of the promotion of racism btw

Thanks again for repeating the fact that you think Arabs are dishonest. Thanks also for another observation based on that same type of outlook. That you think that Arabs are somehow " excelling " at " antisemitism As if they are racially predisposed to excel at bigotry . Is the message that not only are they dishonest but that the are racially configured to excel at being hateful too ?

I would wager that if we were able to poll today those millions of victims of the chattel slave trade in its heyday they too would excel in their ability to dislike the people of the white race. That they would excel at it is in no doubt in my mind but I would put it down to their treatment and not to any cultural or racial predisposition to hate. Context matters in analysis , not just " data " and if you don't wish to include it the claim of allegedly adhering to " objective data " ( Data is neither objective nor subjective , that is where how and by whom it is used comes into play ) just becomes all the more ridiculous

It never ceases to amaze when a person can hold such incontestably racist views but , at the same time , constantly harangue every critic of Israeli policies on the ground of an alleged racism.
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You got a serious Brave New World vibe going on here. Like if you hear something that doesn't fit you just <lalalala> it out and continue on based on pre-conditioning.

Saying that different cultures produce different outcomes regarding the views, attitudes, behaviour and disposition of their populations is not "racist" (and in fact is the complete opposite of racism since the characteristics of the group are cultural, not inherent or racial). This is not a difficult concept to understand yet we can't get past even the recognition of what is being presented to you.

As for excelling at antisemitism, it's very obvious from the data. You are being redirected...

If you view "excelling" as scoring higher, there is no doubt at all that the Arab countries "excel" at it. I'm sorry that you don't like that their antisemitism is something that can be used to say something negative about their societies but again, reality doesn't care about feelings.

And you can blame the Jews for the pervasive antisemitism in the Arab world all you like, but that's clearly also wrong, both morally (which is a common theme with a whole lot of "balanced" views that come from your posts) and factually. I know it makes you feel better to absolve the Arab world for responsibility for the pervasive antisemitism inherent in their societies, but try applying the same standards to them and your bretheren on the left that you do to the far right and see how that goes? Might even pick up some insights.
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

CJ 2.0 said:
You got a serious Brave New World vibe going on here. Like if you hear something that doesn't fit you just <lalalala> it out and continue on based on pre-conditioning.

Saying that different cultures produce different outcomes regarding the views, attitudes, behaviour and disposition of their populations is not "racist" (and in fact is the complete opposite of racism since the characteristics of the group are cultural, not inherent or racial). This is not a difficult concept to understand yet we can't get past even the recognition of what is being presented to you.

As for excelling at antisemitism, it's very obvious from the data. You are being redirected...

If you view "excelling" as scoring higher, there is no doubt at all that the Arab countries "excel" at it. I'm sorry that you don't like that their antisemitism is something that can be used to say something negative about their societies but again, reality doesn't care about feelings.

And you can blame the Jews for the pervasive antisemitism in the Arab world all you like, but that's clearly also wrong, both morally (which is a common theme with a whole lot of "balanced" views that come from your posts) and factually. I know it makes you feel better to absolve the Arab world for responsibility for the pervasive antisemitism inherent in their societies, but try applying the same standards to them and your bretheren on the left that you do to the far right and see how that goes? Might even pick up some insights.
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Of course cultures are not static entities and are shaped by many factors and differences are noticeable , no problem with any of that

What I have a problem with is the deliberate omission of events and their consequences that have helped shape that culture in order to create negative impressions of that racial/cultural group itself. Classic racist tactics imo

If we were able to poll those black slaves during the time of the slave trade about their feelings towards white people and judge the results WITHOUT factoring in the relationship between the two and how that influenced the results , choosing to portray it as an irrational dislike or innate dislike , them themselves as hateful by nature , that would be a classic case of deliberate misinterpretation of the data in order to convey a negative spin of black slaves. This being the bedrock of classic racism

Likewise , if we were presented today with polls taken from first nation Americans in 1800 about their feelings towards white European people settling their territory and encouraged to view the results on notions based around their dislike for them being caused by their being white or Christian people would laugh. And rightly so

The dislike of white people that was sure to exist in the minds black slaves would be best explained by their treatment at the hands of white people

The dislike of white people that was sure to exist in the minds first nation Americans would be best explained in their treatment at the hands of white people

Thus the dislike of Jewish people that is sure to exist in the minds of many Arabs today would be best explained by their treatment at the hands of Jewish people and their powerful allies over the last 100 or so years

That's just the logical none bigoted way to look at what people think and why they think it and in no way denies any cultural differences between different groups

Reality doesn't care about you wish to pervert data in order to create a negative racial stereotyping of Arabs
 
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Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:
Thus the dislike of Jewish people that is sure to exist in the minds of many Arabs today would be best explained by their treatment at the hands of Jewish people and their powerful allies over the last 100 or so years
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A much greater proportion of Jews have a reason to view Arabs badly based on their treatment at the hands of the Arabs than the converse. Most Arabs have never met a Jew and have had no interactions, positive or negative, with them. Like I have pointed out to you, this antisemitism started a very long time ago and has been exacerbated by leadership looking for an external demon combined with cultural tendencies to blame others for misfortune. It has nothing to do with the Palestinians, because the Arabs in general don't give a crap about the Palestinians.

So sure, blaming the Jews for antisemitism may seem to you like it is some sort of enlightened, nuanced position, but in reality it is both factually unsound and consistent with the most classic of antisemetic tropes. Which is fine, I guess, but it is worth it to point out in case you don't see it (which based on the evidence, you don't).
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

CJ 2.0 said:
A much greater proportion of Jews have a reason to view Arabs badly based on their treatment at the hands of the Arabs than the converse. Most Arabs have never met a Jew and have had no interactions, positive or negative, with them. Like I have pointed out to you, this antisemitism started a very long time ago and has been exacerbated by leadership looking for an external demon combined with cultural tendencies to blame others for misfortune. It has nothing to do with the Palestinians, because the Arabs in general don't give a crap about the Palestinians.

So sure, blaming the Jews for antisemitism may seem to you like it is some sort of enlightened, nuanced position, but in reality it is both factually unsound and consistent with the most classic of antisemetic tropes. Which is fine, I guess, but it is worth it to point out in case you don't see it (which based on the evidence, you don't).
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Imo you stop and start the clock to suit your agenda as you pick and choose the context when analysing the data all in order to create certain perspectives that attempt to paint Arabs in a negative light

I remember asking you about from when the expulsions of Jewish people from Arab states began to take place and you AFAIR neglected to answer the question. The answer is almost certainly from the time of the Arab//Israeli wars from 1947 onwards . That's not a justification attempt , just a statement of fact that is highly relevant to this discussion.

I also remember you stating , correctly , that Arab terrorism predated the 67 onwards Israeli occupation of Palestine but refusing to answer the question of whether it predated the Zionist wish to displace and dispossess the Palestinians in order to create a Jewish state there. Again the answer to that question undermines your thesis

Now we are being subjected to Arab dislike of Jews is a result of their culture and not due to the effects Zionism has had on them for over a century

Finally , I would also like to address your use of the word antisemitism again throughout this thread

The dislike by many Arabs of Jewish people is obviously the result of the advent of Zionism and the impact it has had on their lives or the lives of other Arabs that sympathize with them. You may not find this in Arab elites but you will find it in the minds of the rank and file

Antisemitism traditionally meant the dislike of Jews simply because of their Jewishness. This " antisemitism " you speak of is the result of the policies/ actions of those involved with the creation and continuance of the Jewish state. A crucial qualification imo

As previously mentioned , and ignored by yourself for obvious reasons , the first nation American disliked the European settlers because of their wish to displace and dispossess not because of their faith or skin tone. Nor was the black slave of yesteryear hateful of Europeans due to their faith or skin tone

So to claim that many Arabs dislike Jews because of their Jewishness is to invert reality , logic and reason. They dislike them for the same reasons other people have disliked people for , their treatment at the hands of those people

You are devaluing the term itself in order to provide a smokescreen for the legitimate grievances of the victims of the Zionist enterprise which is sad imo
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:
Imo you stop and start the clock to suit your agenda as you pick and choose the context when analysing the data all in order to create certain perspectives that attempt to paint Arabs in a negative light
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not even a little bit. The data speak for themselves.

I remember asking you about from when the expulsions of Jewish people from Arab states began to take place and you AFAIR neglected to answer the question. The answer is almost certainly from the time of the Arab//Israeli wars from 1947 onwards . That's not a justification attempt , just a statement of fact that is highly relevant to this discussion.
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yes, it is highly relevant that the Arab response to the establishment of the state of Israel was to systematically persecute and expel their entire Jewish populations that had nothing to do with Israel and in many cases had lived in those countries long before any Arabs did.

It just isn't relevant in the way that you seem to think it is.

I also remember you stating , correctly , that Arab terrorism predated the 67 onwards Israeli occupation of Palestine but refusing to answer the question of whether it predated the Zionist wish to displace and dispossess the Palestinians in order to create a Jewish state there. Again the answer to that question undermines your thesis
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Persecution of Jews in the middle east was a constant that would pop up with varying degrees of intensity and frequency over hundreds of years. And the oppression and subjugation of Jews into a lower class was also continuing, with varying degrees of intensity, for hundreds of years. And that includes in "Palestine".

Now we are being subjected to Arab dislike of Jews is a result of their culture and not due to the effects Zionism has had on them for over a century
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lol. This shouldn't be so hard. Unlike, say, the Buddhists, who typically do not condemn entire classes of people or races or religions based on the actions of a subset of those people, the Arabs have gleefully embraced the most base and vitriolic forms of antisemitism against ALL Jews, not just against the Jews who live in Israel.

THAT is a result of their culture, in the same way that a defeat for one group of people may be quickly overcome by perseverance while for another group of people the exact same defeat could cause them to stop trying. Culture is what dictates the effects of the defeat, not the defeat itself. And the reaction of the culture here was to embrace the basest forms of antisemitism while blaming the west for the fate of the Palestinians and doing nothing to either help them or look inward to assess why they have not progressed economically and socially like the rest of the world has progressed.

Why is the middle east different than asia today in terms of economic, political and social outcomes? They started from a very similar place on these things 60 or 70 years ago.

The answer is not the Americans or "western imperialism" or any of that nonsense. It's culture and domestic leadership.

Finally , I would also like to address your use of the word antisemitism again throughout this thread

The dislike by many Arabs of Jewish people is obviously the result of the advent of Zionism and the impact it has had on their lives or the lives of other Arabs that sympathize with them. You may not find this in Arab elites but you will find it in the minds of the rank and file
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Yes, and it's still antisemitism. And it is built on racism against Jews in those cultures from long before the creation of Israel.

Antisemitism traditionally meant the dislike of Jews simply because of their Jewishness. This " antisemitism " you speak of is the result of the policies/ actions of those involved with the creation and continuance of the Jewish state. A crucial qualification imo
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lol. Yes a crucial distinction that a vitriolic hatred of Jews is caused by a perceived grievance towards a subset of Jews.

Oh wait, that's not actually a distinction at all, anymore than Mel Gibson's antisemitism is justified because his dad had a bad run in with some Jews back wherever he came from.
 
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Re: Terror Tunnels ?

As previously mentioned , and ignored by yourself for obvious reasons , the first nation American disliked the European settlers because of their wish to displace and dispossess not because of their faith or skin tone. Nor was the black slave of yesteryear hateful of Europeans due to their faith or skin tone

So to claim that many Arabs dislike Jews because of their Jewishness is to invert reality , logic and reason. They dislike them for the same reasons other people have disliked people for , their treatment at the hands of those people
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Right. So they don't hate the Jews because of their Jewishness, they just hate Jewish people because of what some Jewish people did and therefore they are justified in hating all Jews and it isn't antisemetic for them to have adopted beleifs and attitudes that are exactly the same as other antisemites.

That about right?

You are devaluing the term itself in order to provide a smokescreen for the legitimate grievances of the victims of the Zionist enterprise which is sad imo
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Once again, the Iraqis and the Saudis and on and on have no legitimate grievances with the Israelis. In fact the Israelis have way more legitimate grievances with them, since they are the ones who threw out fully half of Israel's population.

And once again they don't give two ****s about the Palestinians so any transitive grievance hypothesis is obviously bunk.

But thank you for your concern about whether the term antisemitism is devalued. Maybe one way to think about not devaluing it is to stop excusing and justifying antisemitism, which is exactly what you are doing here. Just a thought.
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

So what is the purpose of these tunnels?
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:
:roll:
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When you out of arguments, the smileys kicks in.
Keep sticking the head in the sand, it's actually funny to watch.
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

NO1 said:
When you out of arguments, the smileys kicks in.
Keep sticking the head in the sand, it's actually funny to watch.
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Your whole attempt at promoting obvious Israeli propaganda here failed dramatically and emphatically so you resort to drive by pot shots

The tunnels referred to were the Egypt Gaza tunnels not the tunnels Netanyahu referred to

Your claim about the mass deaths of children has no independent supporting evidence and seeing as you will not accept the word of a Palestinian HR group that has had its tussles with Hamas themselves we will get no nearer to finding out

The report clearly states that the tunnels are largely privately owned with members of all factions involved along with private families etc the charge that they are Hamas tunnels just isn't supported

Put all of that together and your regurgitated Israeli state propaganda is laid bare and all you can do is have hollow parting shot attacks

That's why I roll my eyes and that's why it is the correct response
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

akyron said:
So what is the purpose of these tunnels?
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Depends on who you listen to

If you talk to Gazans the tunnels are a lifeline that allows vital goods into Gaza by circumventing the Israeli initiated blockade. They also claim , not unreasonably imo , that the tunnels are for defence purposes due to total Israeli air control of their airspace, used to resist Israeli attacks and hide combatants and weapons

If you listen to the IDF Israeli state people they are terror tunnels used to attack Israelis
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:
Your whole attempt at promoting obvious Israeli propaganda here failed dramatically and emphatically so you resort to drive by pot shots

The tunnels referred to were the Egypt Gaza tunnels not the tunnels Netanyahu referred to

Your claim about the mass deaths of children has no independent supporting evidence and seeing as you will not accept the word of a Palestinian HR group that has had its tussles with Hamas themselves we will get no nearer to finding out

The report clearly states that the tunnels are largely privately owned with members of all factions involved along with private families etc the charge that they are Hamas tunnels just isn't supported

Put all of that together and your regurgitated Israeli state propaganda is laid bare and all you can do is have hollow parting shot attacks

That's why I roll my eyes and that's why it is the correct response
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I already address that but you ignored it as usual.

Your whole thread failed dramatically, the op which said – “Every time , AFAIK , that these tunnels have been used by armed groups of Palestinians they have used them to attack IDF soldiers not Israeli civilians thus making the charge of " terror " ,as in "terrorism " , a false one.”

As I said, of course there are no examples of Hamas members using the tunnels and kill civilians because the IDF prevent that from happening, and Hamas did used the tunnels to carry out massacre in kibbutz Sufa but they failed. Here is the proof –



So guess what, you were wrong from the start. Your poor pr for Hamas failed, and now you prefer to ignore these facts and stick your head in the sand. All that shows you lack any intellectual integrity.
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:
Depends on who you listen to

If you talk to Gazans the tunnels are a lifeline that allows vital goods into Gaza by circumventing the Israeli initiated blockade. They also claim , not unreasonably imo , that the tunnels are for defence purposes due to total Israeli air control of their airspace, used to resist Israeli attacks and hide combatants and weapons

If you listen to the IDF Israeli state people they are terror tunnels used to attack Israelis
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Sorry which tunnels are we talking about?

The egyptian ones are to smuggle goods for profit and to create a back channel route to get weapons and dual-use items in to divert to military applications.

The ones under gaza may be used to hide weapons and military infrastructure, like the bunker under the gaza hospital that is used as Hamas’ central command and control centre (natch).

The ones into Israel are for offensive purposes to be used to kill and kidnap people.

Tunnels into Israel are only used for that purpose. Again this isn’t hard.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

CJ 2.0 said:
... since it isn't strictly based on the letter of the religious code I think it may be fixable, since culture can develop and evolve and the religion can evolve with it ...
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I think that Westerners who believe the highlighted simply don't have the frame of reference necessary to understand that the opposite is true. We use Christianity as a template and see how it has evolved from being a horror show for well over a thousand years to become a force mostly for good today (I say this as an atheist. I don't have a god in this fight). We then conclude that the same should be possible of Islam. It's not. The difference is that a religion that became known as Christianity was formed as a result of councils meeting, discussing the contents of the bible, and then laying down a set of rules and beliefs to follow and giving it an obvious name. This man-made religion can therefore also be man-changed, and it has been. Don't forget that Christianity was a pacifist religion for the first 300 years, and didn't become aggressive until the Roman Empire adopted it. That is how Christianity developed.

Islam is a different story. In case you don't know, the Qur'an is believed to be a verbatim reproduction of the words god imparted to Mohamed via Gabriel. Therefore, it is a sermon from God in the original language. The sole reason it exists is to create and define a new religion called Islam, and "God" makes it crystal clear that these words are final and immutable. Evolution has been explicitly forbidden.
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

CJ 2.0 said:
A much greater proportion of Jews have a reason to view Arabs badly based on their treatment at the hands of the Arabs than the converse. Most Arabs have never met a Jew and have had no interactions, positive or negative, with them. Like I have pointed out to you, this antisemitism started a very long time ago and has been exacerbated by leadership looking for an external demon combined with cultural tendencies to blame others for misfortune. It has nothing to do with the Palestinians, because the Arabs in general don't give a crap about the Palestinians.

So sure, blaming the Jews for antisemitism may seem to you like it is some sort of enlightened, nuanced position, but in reality it is both factually unsound and consistent with the most classic of antisemetic tropes. Which is fine, I guess, but it is worth it to point out in case you don't see it (which based on the evidence, you don't).
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When Mohamed was making war on pagan Mecca, he became frustrated with the Jews of Medina because they refused to convert to Islam or aid him in his personal war. As a result, he authored verse 5:82, in which "God" calls Jews and pagans the greatest enemies of Muslims. That verse, like all the others, is written in stone, and can never be changed or expunged.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

stevecanuck said:
Excuse me? Good bye.
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Good bye and maybe consider opening your own thread on what the Koran says instead of using this one as a piggyback for it :)
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

CJ 2.0 said:
Sorry which tunnels are we talking about?

The egyptian ones are to smuggle goods for profit and to create a back channel route to get weapons and dual-use items in to divert to military applications.

The ones under gaza may be used to hide weapons and military infrastructure, like the bunker under the gaza hospital that is used as Hamas’ central command and control centre (natch).
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Any independent evidence that there was a bunker under the hospital, I mean other than enemies of Hamas............................ IDF/Israeli/Jewish media/PA etc ? If not it is an alleged bunker , not dissimilar to alleged terror tunnels.

The ones into Israel are for offensive purposes to be used to kill and kidnap people.

Tunnels into Israel are only used for that purpose. Again this isn’t hard.
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What " people " have been killed or kidnapped by those exiting tunnels in Israel ?

And if you think that incursions by Hamas combatants into Israel are " offensive " then obviously the Israeli combatant incursions into Gaza are " offensive" too ? :roll:
 
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