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[W:348]Terror Tunnels ?

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

What if...? said:
Israel and the Arabs were fighting over the land that was supposed to go to the Palestinians.

You can try to conflate the "native Israelis" with foreign Arabs all you want.

Won't make it so.

They were war refugees Israel refused to allow to return to their homes afterwards, against international law.

It was the solution to the demographic problem of how to establish a permanent Jewish majority in an area where you are already outnumbered.
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So I guess not the right place, but if you have a problem with the demographic upheavals of the 1940s and 1950s, there are some other places you may want to start with, or at least include for consistency, where there were many, many more population exchanges with surrounding countries.

In any event there was no requirement for the Jews to accept Palestinian refugees just like the Sudeten germans were not allowed to return (14 million of them were forcibly removed), the Indian-Pakistani war resulted in millions and millions of refugees, and Jews who tried to return to Poland got massacred without remedy or recourse. So maybe the double standards being applied here (which also are never applied to the Arabs, who forced out an equal number of Jews who lived in those areas for way longer than Arabs lived outside Arabia) don't belong in a legitimate conversation?

Israel was attacked with the aim of driving the Jews into the sea (their words). That attack failed and the Arabs then occupied the territories "that were supposed to go to the Palestinians".

As for the Israelis vs the Palestinians and nativeness, that definitely doesn't belong here and much of it is beyond my area of expertise, but I would note that there were substantial population inflows on both sides once the Jews started investing in the land and then the British took over (with the express mandate, you may recall, of creating a Jewish National Home in the entirety of the territory, according to international law).
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

CJ 2.0 said:
Sorry, just help me out.

If you target civilians, necessitating the positioning of soldiers to defend them, and murder civilians when the soldiers are not sufficiently protective, the strategy does not become more legitimate even if you use the threat of civilian harm as a method to expose military personnel.

A terrorist army does not gain legitimacy by carrying out attacks against the military sent into the area to protect the civilians being targeted.

Not sure why this needs being clarified, but it clearly does to some (maybe not to you?)
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You do realize that terrorism can be commuted with high tech military hardware too, right?

Can I come to your house and hold your family at gunpoint while I ransack your house?

Just a random check to make sure you're not up to no good?

I didn't think so.
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

CJ 2.0 said:
So I guess not the right place, but if you have a problem with the demographic upheavals of the 1940s and 1950s, there are some other places you may want to start with, or at least include for consistency, where there were many, many more population exchanges with surrounding countries.

In any event there was no requirement for the Jews to accept Palestinian refugees just like the Sudeten germans were not allowed to return (14 million of them were forcibly removed), the Indian-Pakistani war resulted in millions and millions of refugees, and Jews who tried to return to Poland got massacred without remedy or recourse. So maybe the double standards being applied here (which also are never applied to the Arabs, who forced out an equal number of Jews who lived in those areas for way longer than Arabs lived outside Arabia) don't belong in a legitimate conversation?

Israel was attacked with the aim of driving the Jews into the sea (their words). That attack failed and the Arabs then occupied the territories "that were supposed to go to the Palestinians".

As for the Israelis vs the Palestinians and nativeness, that definitely doesn't belong here and much of it is beyond my area of expertise, but I would note that there were substantial population inflows on both sides once the Jews started investing in the land and then the British took over (with the express mandate, you may recall, of creating a Jewish National Home in the entirety of the territory, according to international law).
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The Israelis moved on that dirt too. Seizing land they considered "necessary" for their defense.

Ben gurion is quoted saying something to the effect of we'll take what we're given now and get the rest of eretz Israel later.

The native Israelis were right about the goals of the Jews all along. They knew the Israelis intended to force them out.
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

Skeptic Bob said:
I’m going to stay out of the Israel/Palestinian mess, but I do agree that attacking soldiers is not terrorism. Act of war? Combat? Unfustified violence? Perhaps. But not terrorism.
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I agree. It can be considered an act of war.

But oneworld disagrees. Of course.

And if the military were actually targeted it would be one thing. But we all know civilians are the real target most of the time.
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

What if...? said:
The Israelis moved on that dirt too. Seizing land they considered "necessary" for their defense.

Ben gurion is quoted saying something to the effect of we'll take what we're given now and get the rest of eretz Israel later.

The native Israelis were right about the goals of the Jews all along. They knew the Israelis intended to force them out.
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Except that there are lots of Arabs who are living in Israel who have more rights than anywhere else in the Arab World and serve in parliament, the courts etc. Had Israel intended a systematic expulsion, they would not be there (as, say, there are no Jews in virtually all Arab countries).

I would also point out that were it not for the war launched by the Arabs against the Jews and the call by the Arab leaders for the Arabs to flee they also wouldn’t have become refugees (like the Jews expelled and not allowed to return from areas conquered by the Arab armies, which fortunately wasn’t so much).

This was a war between the whole Arab world and the Jews in Israel. The Jews retained a small piece of territory. The Arabs threw out hundreds of thousands of their Jews who were not even remotely involved in the fight.

Yet you are all about blaming the Jews and castigating them for surviving and succeeding. Maybe think about it a bit more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

NO1 said:
Hamas tried to execute terror attack using these tunnels but IDF forces stopped them,
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When and where was this ?

Must have been some gun battle , eh ?

Casualties on both sides no doubt


Your claim has absolutely nil evidence to back it up other than unnamed sources from the IDF

It's the IDF equivalent of the Hamas Jews make bread out of Arabs and you are pushing it because you have nothing to use against the point made in this thread

The only cited facts in that embarrassing article that a child could probably have seen through actually backed the claim I made



that could be terrifying massacre. That's the things terror organization such as Hamas do, fortunately IDF new tech helped to eliminate this threat.[/QUOTE]
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

CJ 2.0 said:
I'm shocked. Just shocked.

Queue the irrational disbelief in 3...2...1...
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And I'm not in the least shocked that you claim my dismissal of it , because it has absolutely nothing to support it , is considered " irrational disbelief "
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

CJ 2.0 said:
Sorry, just help me out.

If you target civilians, necessitating the positioning of soldiers to defend them, and murder civilians when the soldiers are not sufficiently protective, the strategy does not become more legitimate even if you use the threat of civilian harm as a method to expose military personnel.

A terrorist army does not gain legitimacy by carrying out attacks against the military sent into the area to protect the civilians being targeted.

Not sure why this needs being clarified, but it clearly does to some (maybe not to you?)
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I was speaking to the habit of calling all asymmetrical warfare "terrorism".

Its a propaganda technigue.

Like calling every criticism of the state of Israel "antisemitism".

Not a single supporter of Israel would tolerate being on the other side of this equation.
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

Bum said:
Its not "right or wrong"...its perception....its whom you chose to support or not support
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I was talking about your assumptions and the odd way you completely fail to comprehend what people are actually doing

Touched a hot spot, huh? ;)
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Don't flatter yourself. Do you think I have not come across these tactics before ?

Someone blundering in and making a whole raft of assumptions and then following them up with baseless allegations because they were outed for getting everything wrong from the very start ?

I find neither side blameless......does that burn your backside??
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Why would it " burn my backside " when its the same position I maintain ?

That knowledge should actually burn yours but I suspect it won't.

People who act like you have here will not be type to perform a little introspection

Heres another nut twister...….I dont align republican or democrat...….how crazy is that?
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Wow , how radical are you ? How sharp to have seen through the choice of Cheech or Chong , Tweedledee or Tweedledum


Not picking one of the proscribed choices??
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We're so lucky to have you here , evidently
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:
I was talking about your assumptions and the odd way you completely fail to comprehend what people are actually doing



Don't flatter yourself. Do you think I have not come across these tactics before ?

Someone blundering in and making a whole raft of assumptions and then following them up with baseless allegations because they were outed for getting everything wrong from the very start ?



Why would it " burn my backside " when its the same position I maintain ?

That knowledge should actually burn yours but I suspect it won't.

People who act like you have here will not be type to perform a little introspection



Wow , how radical are you ? How sharp to have seen through the choice of Cheech or Chong , Tweedledee or Tweedledum




We're so lucky to have you here , evidently
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And dont you forget it, peaches. :peace
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

CJ 2.0 said:
Thanks for making my point.
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You had a point ?

I mean other than I would be " irrational for not believing " a " picture painted by the IDF of Hamas intentions " that had absolutely zero supporting evidence ?

No , thank you for making mine , again


And incidentally, falling back on the not enough dead Jews argument again.
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As you people tend do do ad nauseam, especially when you are struggling


I guess we should have waited for Hamas to do this so
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Before you could legitimately call them " terror tunnels " ?................. absolutely. ( the point of this thread )

If you want to call them that when they have always been used for legitimate attacks on the forces of an occupying army you can and people like me will call you out for engaging in propaganda spin and deception

we would be able to show you that they did it,
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It would have moved from fiction to fact. From evidence free speculation to fact based realisation. A crucial difference. All of this is so basic to understand I can't believe your are still dragging it out

which of course would have zero impact on your willingness to accept the need for Israeli self defence anyways.
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I accept Israels right to self defence already ( well documented here ) so your straw man is to be ignored

What's obvious though is that you refuse to accept the Palestinians right to self defence by denying their right to defend themselves against the IDF and the state of Israel

People, any people , have a right fight for the right to self determination , to oust occupiers from their territory and end crippling blockades

Maybe it's very much more a case of not enough dead Palestinians
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:
When and where was this ?

Must have been some gun battle , eh ?

Casualties on both sides no doubt

Your claim has absolutely nil evidence to back it up other than unnamed sources from the IDF

It's the IDF equivalent of the Hamas Jews make bread out of Arabs and you are pushing it because you have nothing to use against the point made in this thread

The only cited facts in that embarrassing article that a child could probably have seen through actually backed the claim I made

that could be terrifying massacre. That's the things terror organization such as Hamas do, fortunately IDF new tech helped to eliminate this threat.
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IDF forces sealing the tunnels stopped any potential attack.

Ergo no shots needed to be fired.

So, can we agree these tunnels, when used to attack the IDF, are an act of war?
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

Fledermaus said:
Where exactly did he surrender? Post number?
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Shhhh….let him believe that.


He spared my life and he is now responsible for my upkeep.....clothing, food, etc.

Do you have any idea how lucky I am now? ;)
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:
In light of our " pro Israel " supporters having provided precisely nil examples of Hamas members exiting tunnels to attack civilians in Israel we must be subjected to unverifiable speculation presented as fact and in the most dramatic terms imaginable

:roll:
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I see you can quote my words but why don’t you read them?

Of course there are no examples of Hamas members using the tunnels to kill civilians because the IDF prevent that from happening :lol:. In Operation Protective Edge the tunnels threat came to the public awareness, and then Israel destroyed about 30 of them. Some of them were near kibbutzim and the IDF discovered while still being excavated - Large terror tunnel from Gaza discovered near kibbutz | The Times of Israel https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5258593,00.html
, which means Hamas wanted to keep building until they will get under the kibbutzim so they can kill many citizens as possible.


You truly hope that people would just be too embarrassed to insult our collective intelligence with this level of counter argument but alas................. desperate is as desperate does
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An insult to the intelligence is the pr for Hamas that you are doing. Hamas terror actions are well known and documented, harming and killing civilians from both sides is part of their modus operandi, but of course that’s not stopping you from cheering for them, it’s just show (again) how radical your view is.
And one more thing, 160 children died while digging Hamas tunnels - https://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/At-least-160-children-died-digging-tunnels-for-Hamas-369138 and of course this fact doesn’t bother Hamas they still sending Gazans kids to dig their grave, that's the things they do.


From your completely unbiased media outlet replete with such verifiable sources as " IDF officials " and " unnamed security official." soz but it's so bad I am compelled to insert another :roll:

Snippets worthy of reflection

In every propaganda piece there are always grains of truth and I think the above line encapsulates the truth of this piece.................. " painting pictures " indeed they were and it was never going to be flowers in a meadow

Another grain of truth that actually supports the theme of this thread follows

TBH the only reported facts actually support the point made in this thread and the massive speculation from unnamed Israeli military sources should be treated with the contempt it deserves
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Well these lame excuses were predictable,but that wasn’t the single time Hamas intended to kill civilians using the tunnels. Here is a footage which show how IDF forces prevented Hamas terrorists from attacking an Israeli kibbutz after they came out of tunnels near the community of Sufa- https://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/IDF-thwarts-13-Gaza-terrorists-from-attempted-infiltration-into-Israel-363133
“This is another successful thwarting of a Hamas attack planned for the southern area.

We are ready for these scenarios in the coming days,” the IDF spokesman said.

The terrorists planned to either kidnap an Israeli or kill civilians in the Kibbutz Sufa area, Almoz said. “This is a significant success for us. Had we not succeeded, we would have woken up to 13 terrorists in a kibbutz.”
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http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/Terrorism/Pages/IDF-thwarts-terror-attack-via-tunnel-from-Gaza-17-Jul-2014.aspx
IDF Spokesman Brig. Gen. Moti Almoz speaking on Israel TV Channel 2: "We knew specifically about this tunnel. We knew Hamas would try [to launch a terror attack] in any way it can. This attack was meant to be a killing spree in one of the villages nearby. The volley of rockets that hit central Israel in the last hour, just ahead of a humanitarian ceasefire beginning at 10 a.m., “was meant as an envelope for this attack."
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The footage of the IDF prevent the attack-

The footage of the weapons of Hamas terrorists -
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:
And I'm not in the least shocked that you claim my dismissal of it , because it has absolutely nothing to support it , is considered " irrational disbelief "
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Help me out...

If the tunnels are to allow things like cooking gas, etc. in to Gaza why did the Palestinians destroy the fuel complex at the Kerem Shalom crossing?

Once again, thousands of Palestinians protested Friday in various locations along the frontier. Later, a group of Palestinians burned a fuel complex and conveyor belt on their side of the Kerem Shalom crossing, causing more than $9 million in damages and disrupting the import of diesel fuel and building materials, the military said. It said the attack rendered the main fuel and gas lines unusable and caused further damage to electrical infrastructure and other vital equipment.

The military said the Kerem Shalom crossing will be closed until further notice and not before the damage is repaired.

A lengthy closing of the crossing would deliver further devastation to Gaza’s already dire humanitarian crisis. The fuel installation is the only way to bring diesel fuel into Gaza for operating generators for hospitals and other key facilities. The military distributed a video showing Palestinians cheering as a fire was set. It was the second such attack on the facility in a week, it said. “Hamas continues to lead the residents of Gaza to destroy the only assistance they receive,” the army said.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israel-bombs-gaza-tunnel-closes-key-crossing-after-attack

There is infrastructure in place to aid the Palestinians. Which the Palestinians destroy. Then they cry they need tunnels for humanitarian reasons... Because they blew up the infrastructure that aided them.
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:
The only thing that is truly lame is that dreadful attempt to try to debunk the point of this thread........................ people should be completely embarrassed to have to resort to such levels imo
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Your attempt to defend Hamas actions is a shame. Keep cheering for them, just proving my point about your radical view.
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

Fledermaus said:
IDF forces sealing the tunnels stopped any potential attack.
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Which begs the question that's been hanging there all along............................. why hadn't they " sealed " them as soon as they found out about the allegedly planned civilian attack ? ( that they had precisely zero evidence for anyhow )

Why wait until the Gaza massacre before acting if they knew a plan was imminent ? Maybe because there was no plan ? That's why there was no evidence ?

Can't bring yourself to comment on that ridiculously porous article can you ?

You will avoid it and demand that your own questions be answered

If you employ these tactics again be sure I will just ignore your posts

Ergo no shots needed to be fired.
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No shots would have been needed had the sealing taken place in the first place

So, can we agree these tunnels, when used to attack the IDF, are an act of war?
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They have only been used to attack the IDF so far. Correct ?

Ive already answered that point and watched as you lied about my position on it
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

Fledermaus said:
Where exactly did he surrender? Post number?
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post 35 , he knows it and I know it but apparently you don't

Stop trying to spoil the little fun that has crept into this thread :roll:
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:
Which begs the question that's been hanging there all along............................. why hadn't they " sealed " them as soon as they found out about the allegedly planned civilian attack ? ( that they had precisely zero evidence for anyhow )
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So they could observe perhaps. Maybe whack-A-Mole a couple of would be terrorists...

oneworld2 said:
Why wait until the Gaza massacre before acting if they knew a plan was imminent ? Maybe because there was no plan ? That's why there was no evidence ?
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Maybe there was a plan and it was thwarted.

oneworld2 said:
Can't bring yourself to comment on that ridiculously porous article can you ?
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We come back to the "not enough dead Jews" argument. The IDF stopped a potential point of entry into Israel BEFORE any attack could occur. And this is a bad thing why?

oneworld2 said:
You will avoid it and demand that your own questions be answered
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Asked and answered. If you want further info ask the IDF.

oneworld2 said:
If you employ these tactics again be sure I will just ignore your posts
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TRANSLATION : oneworld will run from another argument.

oneworld2 said:
No shots would have been needed had the sealing taken place in the first place
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CLUE: Once the tunnel was located I am sure the IDF monitored it to ensure no entries were made prior to sealing it.

oneworld2 said:
They have only been used to attack the IDF so far. Correct ?
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The IDF yes. What other attacks may have made with arms/explosives smuggled in I do not know.

oneworld2 said:
Ive already answered that point and watched as you lied about my position on it
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You don't agree armed intrusion into a sovereign country and/or attacks on their military is an act of war?

Please clarify your stance.

Is it or is it not an act of war to attack the military forces of another country?
 
Re: Terror Tunnels ?

Bum said:
Shhhh….let him believe that.
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Like you believed you knew my views on this topic lol

He spared my life and he is now responsible for my upkeep.....clothing, food, etc.
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Correct the parcels in the post and should arrive along the silk road in a week or two :lol:

Do you have any idea how lucky I am now? ;)
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Extremely so
 
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