[W:348]Terror Tunnels ?

You will all no doubt be familiar with the often used term " terror tunnels " , or " Hamas terror tunnels " giving a certain impression to tie in with the pro Israeli narratives but let's just consider some things

Every time , AFAIK , that these tunnels have been used by armed groups of Palestinians they have used them to attack IDF soldiers not Israeli civilians thus making the charge of " terror " ,as in "terrorism " , a false one.

Why ?

Because to attack the armed forces of an occupying power is not terrorism at all but a justifiable act of armed resistance.

So the next time you hear or read this term remember you are being subjected to Israeli state propaganda

Sometimes it is framed in such a way as to make a person believe that civilians have been the victims of such attacks.

It might go something like............." Palestinians terrorists have exited the terror tunnels and attacked Israelis"............... which is true insomush as the IDF soldiers are in fact Israelis .

The fact that the term" IDF soldiers" has been omitted and " Israelis " inserted , along with the inclusion of " terrorists" in "terror tunnels ", could lead , will lead , people to believe that civilians have been attacked in such instances. To my knowledge that has never been the case,

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

I’m going to stay out of the Israel/Palestinian mess, but I do agree that attacking soldiers is not terrorism. Act of war? Combat? Unfustified violence? Perhaps. But not terrorism.

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:

You will all no doubt be familiar with the often used term " terror tunnels " , or " Hamas terror tunnels " giving a certain impression to tie in with the pro Israeli narratives but let's just consider some things

Every time , AFAIK , that these tunnels have been used by armed groups of Palestinians they have used them to attack IDF soldiers not Israeli civilians thus making the charge of " terror " ,as in "terrorism " , a false one.

Why ?

Because to attack the armed forces of an occupying power is not terrorism at all but a justifiable act of armed resistance.

So the next time you hear or read this term remember you are being subjected to Israeli state propaganda

Sometimes it is framed in such a way as to make a person believe that civilians have been the victims of such attacks.

It might go something like............." Palestinians terrorists have exited the terror tunnels and attacked Israelis"............... which is true insomush as the IDF soldiers are in fact Israelis .

The fact that the term" IDF soldiers" has been omitted and " Israelis " inserted , along with the inclusion of " terrorists" in "terror tunnels ", could lead , will lead , people to believe that civilians have been attacked in such instances. To my knowledge that has never been the case,

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Interesting.


And I would agree that attacking soldiers does not sound like terrorism, but rather like warfare.

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:

You will all no doubt be familiar with the often used term " terror tunnels " , or " Hamas terror tunnels " giving a certain impression to tie in with the pro Israeli narratives but let's just consider some things

Every time , AFAIK , that these tunnels have been used by armed groups of Palestinians they have used them to attack IDF soldiers not Israeli civilians thus making the charge of " terror " ,as in "terrorism " , a false one.

Why ?

Because to attack the armed forces of an occupying power is not terrorism at all but a justifiable act of armed resistance.

So the next time you hear or read this term remember you are being subjected to Israeli state propaganda

Sometimes it is framed in such a way as to make a person believe that civilians have been the victims of such attacks.

It might go something like............." Palestinians terrorists have exited the terror tunnels and attacked Israelis"............... which is true insomush as the IDF soldiers are in fact Israelis .

The fact that the term" IDF soldiers" has been omitted and " Israelis " inserted , along with the inclusion of " terrorists" in "terror tunnels ", could lead , will lead , people to believe that civilians have been attacked in such instances. To my knowledge that has never been the case,

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If you are going to make this distinction, I would call upon you to establish...for a fact...that the tunnels are not used against Israeli civilians. Your ability to do so or not will determine if your thread is worth commenting on.

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

The Mark said:

Interesting.


And I would agree that attacking soldiers does not sound like terrorism, but rather like warfare.

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It's not terrorism for sure hence the misnomer of " terror tunnels " . Warfare is a more apt description , I agree

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

Mycroft said:

If you are going to make this distinction, I would call upon you to establish...for a fact...that the tunnels are not used against Israeli civilians. Your ability to do so or not will determine if your thread is worth commenting on.

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I am making the distinction that , thus far , attacks from Hamas operatives exiting the tunnels in Israeli territory have only been against IDF personnel with not a single one against Israeli civilians.

If I were wrong on this be sure that the resident Israeli propagandists would have already shown incidents that would prove it to be a false claim

My guess is that you won't believe it anyway , won't want to believe it so probably won't comment further anyway

If you want to opt to believe the spin over the reality that's absolutely fine with me

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:

It's not terrorism for sure hence the misnomer of " terror tunnels " . Warfare is a more apt description , I agree

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So you agree that the tunnels are acts of war and therefore Israel can take the actions necessary to end that war?

And of course the occupation was the end result of Arab warfare against Israel and therefore “fighting against the occupation” is no more a justification than trying to stab someone holding you down because you were previously trying to shoot them.

Happy to allow you to pretend Hamas isn’t a terrorist organization engaged in terrorism if you prefer it that way. Doesn’t actually help your case but illustrates how a “ceasefire” with Hamas is worth nothing and provides further justification for military actions against Hamas.


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Re: Terror Tunnels ?

CJ 2.0 said:

So you agree that the tunnels are acts of war and therefore Israel can take the actions necessary to end that war?

Click to expand...

It must be so frustrating for you to not be able to disprove the fact that no Palestinians exiting tunnels from Gaza into Israel have actually attacked Israeli civilians and instead attacked IDF positions.

You are crying in another thread that people haven't commented on the info in the OP and yet here you are doing exactly that.

All very predictable

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:

It must be so frustrating for you to not be able to disprove the fact that no Palestinians exiting tunnels from Gaza into Israel have actually attacked Israeli civilians and instead attacked IDF positions.

You are crying in another thread that people haven't commented on the info in the OP and yet here you are doing exactly that.

All very predictable

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Yeah, it's super frustrating that Hamas has been unable to use their tunnels to murder Jews. I keep trying to get the IDF to just let Hamas undertake their operations and kill people, but they just keep not listening to me and destroying these tunnels before they can be used to murder people.

Oh wait, that doesn't frustrate me at all. Sure does frustrate the "Pro-Palestinians" though...

As for the OP, you are saying that because Hamas hasn't been able to launch assaults against Israeli communities it therefore means that Hamas never intended to use these tunnels to do that and therefore they are not terrorist weapons and cannot be properly described as terror tunnels.

Which is bad logic. Those pipe bombs delivered to all those pols in the US didn't kill anyone either. Those not terrorism? You have a direct channel into the terrorist organization that is Hamas and know for a fact that they would never <godforbid> use these tunnels to infiltrate into Israel and murder civilians, because that is SOOOO against type for Hamas?

Logic is our friend.

Oh, and just to tie back to MY post which you ignored again (just like the one in the other thread you have now explicitly acknowledged ignoring), you just said that we should view Hamas' tunnels into Israel as acts of war. Prepared to live with the implications of that or want to back pedal to say that Israel isn't justified responding to acts of war?

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

CJ 2.0 said:

Yeah, it's super frustrating that Hamas has been unable to use their tunnels to murder Jews. I keep trying to get the IDF to just let Hamas undertake their operations and kill people, but they just keep not listening to me and destroying these tunnels before they can be used to murder people.

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Yep , we get the gist of the racist approach you choose to adopt. Palestinians are just subhuman automatons that just want to murder Jews and have no justification for responding to ongoing Israeli violence and crimes committed daily against them. No redress for occupation , siege , assassinations , displacement , dispossession , demolition , detention without trial ,mass rights violations etc etc

Oh wait, that doesn't frustrate me at all. Sure does frustrate the "Pro-Palestinians" though...

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So "pro Palestinian " means pro Jewish murder . Not only are the Palestinians subhuman but anyone that sympathizes with their dire circumstances is subhuman also

That's the " world of objective reality " you claim to live in lol

As for the OP, you are saying that because Hamas hasn't been able to launch assaults against Israeli communities it therefore means that Hamas never intended to use these tunnels to do that and therefore they are not terrorist weapons and cannot be properly described as terror tunnels.

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It is completely reasonable to assume that if Hamas had wanted to dig tunnels which would give them direct access to Israeli civilian sites , bypassing the IDF outposts ,with the intention of mass murder they could have and would have done so by now. Thus far they have attacked IDF positions. That's just a fact you cannot deny so you choose the next best propaganda option and SPECULATE that their aim is ALWAYS to kill Israeli civilians thus trying to demonize them via your own speculation in a desperate bid to try to justify the misnomer of " terror tunnels "

Which is bad logic.

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Nope , believing your own speculation to be an unquestionable reality is a logical fallacy and expecting others to be taken in by it delusional tbh

Those pipe bombs delivered to all those pols in the US didn't kill anyone either. Those not terrorism?

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They targeted civilians afaik........... a crucial difference that you evidently think people will not have noticed , I would also wager that the person/s who sent them are not being systematically brutalized/mass rights violated by the people they sent them to....................context matters even if you think it doesn't

You have a direct channel into the terrorist organization that is Hamas and know for a fact that they would never <godforbid> use these tunnels to infiltrate into Israel and murder civilians, because that is SOOOO against type for Hamas?

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Whether they would or would not use the tunnels to attack is not the question here. The question is that they could have but they haven't , so the tag of "terror tunnels " is a misnomer. Hard for you to accept but , thus far , impossible for you to deny. So you are only left with the option to speculate
[quote[
Logic is our friend.[/quote]

I don't think it's your friend as shown in the above

Oh, and just to tie back to MY post which you ignored again (just like the one in the other thread you have now explicitly acknowledged ignoring), you just said that we should view Hamas' tunnels into Israel as acts of war. Prepared to live with the implications of that or want to back pedal to say that Israel isn't justified responding to acts of war?

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IIRC I said I thought the posters comment that the tunnel attacks on IDF personnel were like acts of war was " more apt" than to describe them as terrorism , which I still think/know to be right. And ?

Let's go right back to the start and be honest enough to acknowledge that the Zionist wish to oust the Palestinians from their land in order to create a Jewish state there was the initial act of war that all others actions have followed from. The Palestinians have a right to respond to that declaration of war even if you think they haven't

BTW I posted in the other thread some comments that addressed what Israel could/should do wrt the Palestinians , part of the info in the OP of that thread. A thread you constantly cried about people not addressing points made in the OP and you ignored it lol

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-confirms-hamas-planned-massive-tunnel-attack/

IDF officials confirmed Tuesday that Hamas had planned to carry out a massive assault by penetrating Israeli communities via tunnels under the border from the Gaza Strip, and then killing or kidnapping as many people as possible.
...
“They planned to send 200 terrorists armed to the teeth toward civilian populations,” Lerner said. “This was going to be a coordinated attack. The concept of operations involved 14 offensive tunnels into Israel. With at least 10 men in each tunnel, they would infiltrate and inflict mass casualties.”
...
First, get in and massacre people in a village,” one official explained. “Pull off something they could show on television. Second, the ability to kidnap soldiers and civilians using the tunnels would give them a great bargaining chip.”

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Hamas tried to execute terror attack using these tunnels but IDF forces stopped them, that could be terrifying massacre. That's the things terror organization such as Hamas do, fortunately IDF new tech helped to eliminate this threat.

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:

It must be so frustrating for you to not be able to disprove the fact that no Palestinians exiting tunnels from Gaza into Israel have actually attacked Israeli civilians and instead attacked IDF positions.

You are crying in another thread that people haven't commented on the info in the OP and yet here you are doing exactly that.

All very predictable

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All very disingenuous.

And rockets fired into Israel dont pose a threat to civilians? The Palestinian and Hamas Charters do not call for the destruction of Israel?

I cant say that either Israel or Palestine is without fault for the current situation, but dont try to paint one side or the other as the lily white victim. :neutral:

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

NO1 said:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-confirms-hamas-planned-massive-tunnel-attack/


Hamas tried to execute terror attack using these tunnels but IDF forces stopped them, that could be terrifying massacre. That's the things terror organization such as Hamas do, fortunately IDF new tech helped to eliminate this threat.

Click to expand...

I'm shocked. Just shocked.

Queue the irrational disbelief in 3...2...1...

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

Bum said:

All very disingenuous.

And rockets fired into Israel dont pose a threat to civilians? The Palestinian and Hamas Charters do not call for the destruction of Israel?

I cant say that either Israel or Palestine is without fault for the current situation, but dont try to paint one side or the other as the lily white victim. :neutral:

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That's true, it's lame pr for the terror organization - Hamas. Hamas seeks to increase the death toll of Israeli and Gazans civilians to fulfill their terrible goals.

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

NO1 said:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-confirms-hamas-planned-massive-tunnel-attack/


Hamas tried to execute terror attack using these tunnels but IDF forces stopped them, that could be terrifying massacre. That's the things terror organization such as Hamas do, fortunately IDF new tech helped to eliminate this threat.

Click to expand...

In light of our " pro Israel " supporters having provided precisely nil examples of Hamas members exiting tunnels to attack civilians in Israel we must be subjected to unverifiable speculation presented as fact and in the most dramatic terms imaginable

:roll:

You truly hope that people would just be too embarrassed to insult our collective intelligence with this level of counter argument but alas................. desperate is as desperate does

From your completely unbiased media outlet replete with such verifiable sources as " IDF officials " and " unnamed security official." soz but it's so bad I am compelled to insert another :roll:

Snippets worthy of reflection

Times of Israel said:

Lerner confirmed his statement to The Times of Israel, saying .................the IDF’s Military Intelligence had painted a picture of Hamas intentions

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In every propaganda piece there are always grains of truth and I think the above line encapsulates the truth of this piece.................. " painting pictures " indeed they were and it was never going to be flowers in a meadow

“We have no specific date but they absolutely intended "...................

citing an unnamed security official.

However, officials had refused to confirm the report,

The sensationalism was around Rosh Hashanah,”

An unnamed security official told Vanity Fair that while it was possible[/] the attack had been planned for Rosh Hashanah, Hamas was forced to abandon its strategy once a summer war was launched, during which Israel destroyed dozens of the tunnels.

Lerner’s statements were supported by unnamed military intelligence officials

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Another grain of truth that actually supports the theme of this thread follows

TimesofIsrael said:

During the war, Hamas gunmen emerged from the tunnels on several occasions to ambush IDF forces, killing several soldiers.

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TBH the only reported facts actually support the point made in this thread and the massive speculation from unnamed Israeli military sources should be treated with the contempt it deserves

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

NO1 said:

That's true, it's lame pr for the terror organization - Hamas. Hamas seeks to increase the death toll of Israeli and Gazans civilians to fulfill their terrible goals.

Click to expand...

The only thing that is truly lame is that dreadful attempt to try to debunk the point of this thread........................ people should be completely embarrassed to have to resort to such levels imo

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

CJ 2.0 said:

I'm shocked. Just shocked.

Queue the irrational disbelief in 3...2...1...

Click to expand...

The only reported fact was that Hamas operatives had attacked IDF soldiers from the tunnels................. just like I said

The rest was speculation from biased and unverifiable sources

It's funny how someone that claims to live " in the real world " is quite prepared to jump ship if the fantasy is aimed at supporting their own chosen narrative

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

Bum said:

All very disingenuous.

Click to expand...

Is that your stock response when you too cannot refute the argument ?

So what do you do in such circumstances ?

Change the subject to.................

And rockets fired into Israel dont pose a threat to civilians?

Click to expand...

:roll:

or

The Palestinian and Hamas Charters do not call for the destruction of Israel?

Click to expand...

:roll:

I cant say that either Israel or Palestine is without fault for the current situation, but dont try to paint one side or the other as the lily white victim. :neutral:

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So stating facts that undermine the very act of trying to " paint one side as the lily white victim " is trying to paint one side as the lily white victim ?

In what world is that not ridiculous ?

That you claim to be neutral is hilarious

So , please do me a favour and stop trying to derail the thread with off topic distractions and demonstrably ridiculous allegations.

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

The Mark said:

Interesting.


And I would agree that attacking soldiers does not sound like terrorism, but rather like warfare.

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Asymmetrical warfare technically.

Which we introduced to European warfare in the revolution.

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:

Is that your stock response when you too cannot refute the argument ?

So what do you do in such circumstances ?

Change the subject to.................



:roll:

or



:roll:




So stating facts that undermine the very act of trying to " paint one side as the lily white victim " is trying to paint one side as the lily white victim ?

In what world is that not ridiculous ?

That you claim to be neutral is hilarious

So , do me a favour and stop trying to derail the thread with off topic distractions and demonstrably ridiculous allegations

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No, that's my reply to blatant hypocrisy and spin politics....it must really be hard for you to swallow the fact that just because some dont like Israel's politics, it does not mean we find the PLO or Hamas to be any more palatable.

That's the problem with narrow minded politics....its inconceivable to you that many find neither side to be in the right.


And, NO...I wont do you any favors.

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

CJ 2.0 said:

So you agree that the tunnels are acts of war and therefore Israel can take the actions necessary to end that war?

And of course the occupation was the end result of Arab warfare against Israel and therefore “fighting against the occupation” is no more a justification than trying to stab someone holding you down because you were previously trying to shoot them.

Happy to allow you to pretend Hamas isn’t a terrorist organization engaged in terrorism if you prefer it that way. Doesn’t actually help your case but illustrates how a “ceasefire” with Hamas is worth nothing and provides further justification for military actions against Hamas.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Israel and the Arabs were fighting over the land that was supposed to go to the Palestinians.

You can try to conflate the "native Israelis" with foreign Arabs all you want.

Won't make it so.

They were war refugees Israel refused to allow to return to their homes afterwards, against international law.

It was the solution to the demographic problem of how to establish a permanent Jewish majority in an area where you are already outnumbered.

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

Bum said:

No, that's my reply to blatant hypocrisy and spin politics....it must really be hard for you to swallow the fact that just because some dont like Israel's politics, it does not mean we find the PLO or Hamas to be any more palatable.

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You don't know my views on Hamas or the PLO so you are shouting blind with accusations of hypocrisy

You also obviously have no idea what spin is when you denounce those that want to stick to the facts in order to undermine it

That's the problem with narrow minded politics....its inconceivable to you that many find neither side to be in the right.

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Once again you don't know what's " inconceivable " to me because you don't know my views or positions , you just ASSUME you do

So far you have been wrong on just about everything it has been possible to be wrong about

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:

You don't know my views on Hamas or the PLO so you are shouting blind with accusations of hypocrisy

You also obviously have no idea what spin is when you denounce those that want to stick to the facts in order to undermine it



Once again you don't know what's " inconceivable " to me because you don't know my views or positions , you just ASSUME you do

So far you have been wrong on just about everything it has been possible to be wrong about

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Its not "right or wrong"...its perception....its whom you chose to support or not support
Touched a hot spot, huh?

I find neither side blameless......does that burn your backside??

Heres another nut twister...….I dont align republican or democrat...….how crazy is that? Not picking one of the proscribed choices??

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

oneworld2 said:

The only reported fact was that Hamas operatives had attacked IDF soldiers from the tunnels................. just like I said

The rest was speculation from biased and unverifiable sources

It's funny how someone that claims to live " in the real world " is quite prepared to jump ship if the fantasy is aimed at supporting their own chosen narrative

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Thanks for making my point.

And incidentally, falling back on the not enough dead Jews argument again. I guess we should have waited for Hamas to do this so we would be able to show you that they did it, which of course would have zero impact on your willingness to accept the need for Israeli self defence anyways.

Re: Terror Tunnels ?

What if...? said:

Asymmetrical warfare technically.

Which we introduced to European warfare in the revolution.

Click to expand...

Sorry, just help me out.

If you target civilians, necessitating the positioning of soldiers to defend them, and murder civilians when the soldiers are not sufficiently protective, the strategy does not become more legitimate even if you use the threat of civilian harm as a method to expose military personnel.

A terrorist army does not gain legitimacy by carrying out attacks against the military sent into the area to protect the civilians being targeted.

Not sure why this needs being clarified, but it clearly does to some (maybe not to you?)