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Thread: Terror Tunnels ?

  1. #181
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    Re: Terror Tunnels ?

    Quote Originally Posted by stevecanuck View Post
    I'm not sure "interpretation" is the right word for what you're trying to say. I think "application" is more fitting. There really is no interpretation involved, because, for example, "God is the enemy of infidels (Allah ado al kafareena - 2:98)" means the same thing in Arabic today as it did 1400 years ago. Fringe groups such as the Ismaelis have found a way to pretend such verses no longer apply, and yes I would love to see more of that. Unfortunately, about 85% of Muslims are Sunni, and they consider Ismaelis to be just another kind of infidel. Sunni Islam is the biggest contributor to terrorism and hate, and they have all the muscle, the money, and the minions.

    I'll respond to the rest later if I have time.
    If you wanted to understand the events of 9/11 you would have been better served to read books critical of US foreign policies in the Middle East in particular and the broader Muslim world more generally

    Turning to the religious books that are full of negative and/or vicious sentiments towards the adherents of other equally pernicious religious books was the wrong choice imo
    There never has been a peace process, but rather an annexation process that used the “peace process” as a facade

  2. #182
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    Re: Terror Tunnels ?

    Quote Originally Posted by oneworld2 View Post
    I always prefer to apply the same standards to all parties , it's the most none bigoted way to view things and when used serves as a good weapon against those that seek to promote negative views of one or other group , the bedrock of the promotion of racism btw

    Thanks again for repeating the fact that you think Arabs are dishonest. Thanks also for another observation based on that same type of outlook. That you think that Arabs are somehow " excelling " at " antisemitism As if they are racially predisposed to excel at bigotry . Is the message that not only are they dishonest but that the are racially configured to excel at being hateful too ?

    I would wager that if we were able to poll today those millions of victims of the chattel slave trade in its heyday they too would excel in their ability to dislike the people of the white race. That they would excel at it is in no doubt in my mind but I would put it down to their treatment and not to any cultural or racial predisposition to hate. Context matters in analysis , not just " data " and if you don't wish to include it the claim of allegedly adhering to " objective data " ( Data is neither objective nor subjective , that is where how and by whom it is used comes into play ) just becomes all the more ridiculous

    It never ceases to amaze when a person can hold such incontestably racist views but , at the same time , constantly harangue every critic of Israeli policies on the ground of an alleged racism.
    You got a serious Brave New World vibe going on here. Like if you hear something that doesn't fit you just <lalalala> it out and continue on based on pre-conditioning.

    Saying that different cultures produce different outcomes regarding the views, attitudes, behaviour and disposition of their populations is not "racist" (and in fact is the complete opposite of racism since the characteristics of the group are cultural, not inherent or racial). This is not a difficult concept to understand yet we can't get past even the recognition of what is being presented to you.

    As for excelling at antisemitism, it's very obvious from the data. You are being redirected...

    If you view "excelling" as scoring higher, there is no doubt at all that the Arab countries "excel" at it. I'm sorry that you don't like that their antisemitism is something that can be used to say something negative about their societies but again, reality doesn't care about feelings.

    And you can blame the Jews for the pervasive antisemitism in the Arab world all you like, but that's clearly also wrong, both morally (which is a common theme with a whole lot of "balanced" views that come from your posts) and factually. I know it makes you feel better to absolve the Arab world for responsibility for the pervasive antisemitism inherent in their societies, but try applying the same standards to them and your bretheren on the left that you do to the far right and see how that goes? Might even pick up some insights.

  3. #183
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    Re: Terror Tunnels ?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ 2.0 View Post
    You got a serious Brave New World vibe going on here. Like if you hear something that doesn't fit you just <lalalala> it out and continue on based on pre-conditioning.

    Saying that different cultures produce different outcomes regarding the views, attitudes, behaviour and disposition of their populations is not "racist" (and in fact is the complete opposite of racism since the characteristics of the group are cultural, not inherent or racial). This is not a difficult concept to understand yet we can't get past even the recognition of what is being presented to you.

    As for excelling at antisemitism, it's very obvious from the data. You are being redirected...

    If you view "excelling" as scoring higher, there is no doubt at all that the Arab countries "excel" at it. I'm sorry that you don't like that their antisemitism is something that can be used to say something negative about their societies but again, reality doesn't care about feelings.

    And you can blame the Jews for the pervasive antisemitism in the Arab world all you like, but that's clearly also wrong, both morally (which is a common theme with a whole lot of "balanced" views that come from your posts) and factually. I know it makes you feel better to absolve the Arab world for responsibility for the pervasive antisemitism inherent in their societies, but try applying the same standards to them and your bretheren on the left that you do to the far right and see how that goes? Might even pick up some insights.
    Of course cultures are not static entities and are shaped by many factors and differences are noticeable , no problem with any of that

    What I have a problem with is the deliberate omission of events and their consequences that have helped shape that culture in order to create negative impressions of that racial/cultural group itself. Classic racist tactics imo

    If we were able to poll those black slaves during the time of the slave trade about their feelings towards white people and judge the results WITHOUT factoring in the relationship between the two and how that influenced the results , choosing to portray it as an irrational dislike or innate dislike , them themselves as hateful by nature , that would be a classic case of deliberate misinterpretation of the data in order to convey a negative spin of black slaves. This being the bedrock of classic racism

    Likewise , if we were presented today with polls taken from first nation Americans in 1800 about their feelings towards white European people settling their territory and encouraged to view the results on notions based around their dislike for them being caused by their being white or Christian people would laugh. And rightly so

    The dislike of white people that was sure to exist in the minds black slaves would be best explained by their treatment at the hands of white people

    The dislike of white people that was sure to exist in the minds first nation Americans would be best explained in their treatment at the hands of white people

    Thus the dislike of Jewish people that is sure to exist in the minds of many Arabs today would be best explained by their treatment at the hands of Jewish people and their powerful allies over the last 100 or so years

    That's just the logical none bigoted way to look at what people think and why they think it and in no way denies any cultural differences between different groups

    Reality doesn't care about you wish to pervert data in order to create a negative racial stereotyping of Arabs
    Last edited by oneworld2; 11-07-18 at 03:49 PM.
    There never has been a peace process, but rather an annexation process that used the “peace process” as a facade

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    Re: Terror Tunnels ?

    Quote Originally Posted by oneworld2 View Post
    Again you dodging.
    You can't face reality don't you

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    Re: Terror Tunnels ?

    Quote Originally Posted by oneworld2 View Post

    Thus the dislike of Jewish people that is sure to exist in the minds of many Arabs today would be best explained by their treatment at the hands of Jewish people and their powerful allies over the last 100 or so years
    A much greater proportion of Jews have a reason to view Arabs badly based on their treatment at the hands of the Arabs than the converse. Most Arabs have never met a Jew and have had no interactions, positive or negative, with them. Like I have pointed out to you, this antisemitism started a very long time ago and has been exacerbated by leadership looking for an external demon combined with cultural tendencies to blame others for misfortune. It has nothing to do with the Palestinians, because the Arabs in general don't give a crap about the Palestinians.

    So sure, blaming the Jews for antisemitism may seem to you like it is some sort of enlightened, nuanced position, but in reality it is both factually unsound and consistent with the most classic of antisemetic tropes. Which is fine, I guess, but it is worth it to point out in case you don't see it (which based on the evidence, you don't).

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    Re: Terror Tunnels ?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ 2.0 View Post
    A much greater proportion of Jews have a reason to view Arabs badly based on their treatment at the hands of the Arabs than the converse. Most Arabs have never met a Jew and have had no interactions, positive or negative, with them. Like I have pointed out to you, this antisemitism started a very long time ago and has been exacerbated by leadership looking for an external demon combined with cultural tendencies to blame others for misfortune. It has nothing to do with the Palestinians, because the Arabs in general don't give a crap about the Palestinians.

    So sure, blaming the Jews for antisemitism may seem to you like it is some sort of enlightened, nuanced position, but in reality it is both factually unsound and consistent with the most classic of antisemetic tropes. Which is fine, I guess, but it is worth it to point out in case you don't see it (which based on the evidence, you don't).
    Imo you stop and start the clock to suit your agenda as you pick and choose the context when analysing the data all in order to create certain perspectives that attempt to paint Arabs in a negative light

    I remember asking you about from when the expulsions of Jewish people from Arab states began to take place and you AFAIR neglected to answer the question. The answer is almost certainly from the time of the Arab//Israeli wars from 1947 onwards . That's not a justification attempt , just a statement of fact that is highly relevant to this discussion.

    I also remember you stating , correctly , that Arab terrorism predated the 67 onwards Israeli occupation of Palestine but refusing to answer the question of whether it predated the Zionist wish to displace and dispossess the Palestinians in order to create a Jewish state there. Again the answer to that question undermines your thesis

    Now we are being subjected to Arab dislike of Jews is a result of their culture and not due to the effects Zionism has had on them for over a century

    Finally , I would also like to address your use of the word antisemitism again throughout this thread

    The dislike by many Arabs of Jewish people is obviously the result of the advent of Zionism and the impact it has had on their lives or the lives of other Arabs that sympathize with them. You may not find this in Arab elites but you will find it in the minds of the rank and file

    Antisemitism traditionally meant the dislike of Jews simply because of their Jewishness. This " antisemitism " you speak of is the result of the policies/ actions of those involved with the creation and continuance of the Jewish state. A crucial qualification imo

    As previously mentioned , and ignored by yourself for obvious reasons , the first nation American disliked the European settlers because of their wish to displace and dispossess not because of their faith or skin tone. Nor was the black slave of yesteryear hateful of Europeans due to their faith or skin tone

    So to claim that many Arabs dislike Jews because of their Jewishness is to invert reality , logic and reason. They dislike them for the same reasons other people have disliked people for , their treatment at the hands of those people

    You are devaluing the term itself in order to provide a smokescreen for the legitimate grievances of the victims of the Zionist enterprise which is sad imo
    There never has been a peace process, but rather an annexation process that used the “peace process” as a facade

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    Re: Terror Tunnels ?

    Quote Originally Posted by NO1 View Post
    Again you dodging.
    You can't face reality don't you
    There never has been a peace process, but rather an annexation process that used the “peace process” as a facade

  8. #188
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    Re: Terror Tunnels ?

    Quote Originally Posted by oneworld2 View Post
    Imo you stop and start the clock to suit your agenda as you pick and choose the context when analysing the data all in order to create certain perspectives that attempt to paint Arabs in a negative light
    not even a little bit. The data speak for themselves.

    I remember asking you about from when the expulsions of Jewish people from Arab states began to take place and you AFAIR neglected to answer the question. The answer is almost certainly from the time of the Arab//Israeli wars from 1947 onwards . That's not a justification attempt , just a statement of fact that is highly relevant to this discussion.
    yes, it is highly relevant that the Arab response to the establishment of the state of Israel was to systematically persecute and expel their entire Jewish populations that had nothing to do with Israel and in many cases had lived in those countries long before any Arabs did.

    It just isn't relevant in the way that you seem to think it is.

    I also remember you stating , correctly , that Arab terrorism predated the 67 onwards Israeli occupation of Palestine but refusing to answer the question of whether it predated the Zionist wish to displace and dispossess the Palestinians in order to create a Jewish state there. Again the answer to that question undermines your thesis
    Persecution of Jews in the middle east was a constant that would pop up with varying degrees of intensity and frequency over hundreds of years. And the oppression and subjugation of Jews into a lower class was also continuing, with varying degrees of intensity, for hundreds of years. And that includes in "Palestine".

    Now we are being subjected to Arab dislike of Jews is a result of their culture and not due to the effects Zionism has had on them for over a century
    lol. This shouldn't be so hard. Unlike, say, the Buddhists, who typically do not condemn entire classes of people or races or religions based on the actions of a subset of those people, the Arabs have gleefully embraced the most base and vitriolic forms of antisemitism against ALL Jews, not just against the Jews who live in Israel.

    THAT is a result of their culture, in the same way that a defeat for one group of people may be quickly overcome by perseverance while for another group of people the exact same defeat could cause them to stop trying. Culture is what dictates the effects of the defeat, not the defeat itself. And the reaction of the culture here was to embrace the basest forms of antisemitism while blaming the west for the fate of the Palestinians and doing nothing to either help them or look inward to assess why they have not progressed economically and socially like the rest of the world has progressed.

    Why is the middle east different than asia today in terms of economic, political and social outcomes? They started from a very similar place on these things 60 or 70 years ago.

    The answer is not the Americans or "western imperialism" or any of that nonsense. It's culture and domestic leadership.

    Finally , I would also like to address your use of the word antisemitism again throughout this thread

    The dislike by many Arabs of Jewish people is obviously the result of the advent of Zionism and the impact it has had on their lives or the lives of other Arabs that sympathize with them. You may not find this in Arab elites but you will find it in the minds of the rank and file
    Yes, and it's still antisemitism. And it is built on racism against Jews in those cultures from long before the creation of Israel.

    Antisemitism traditionally meant the dislike of Jews simply because of their Jewishness. This " antisemitism " you speak of is the result of the policies/ actions of those involved with the creation and continuance of the Jewish state. A crucial qualification imo
    lol. Yes a crucial distinction that a vitriolic hatred of Jews is caused by a perceived grievance towards a subset of Jews.

    Oh wait, that's not actually a distinction at all, anymore than Mel Gibson's antisemitism is justified because his dad had a bad run in with some Jews back wherever he came from.
    Last edited by CJ 2.0; 11-08-18 at 06:14 PM.

  9. #189
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    Re: Terror Tunnels ?

    As previously mentioned , and ignored by yourself for obvious reasons , the first nation American disliked the European settlers because of their wish to displace and dispossess not because of their faith or skin tone. Nor was the black slave of yesteryear hateful of Europeans due to their faith or skin tone

    So to claim that many Arabs dislike Jews because of their Jewishness is to invert reality , logic and reason. They dislike them for the same reasons other people have disliked people for , their treatment at the hands of those people
    Right. So they don't hate the Jews because of their Jewishness, they just hate Jewish people because of what some Jewish people did and therefore they are justified in hating all Jews and it isn't antisemetic for them to have adopted beleifs and attitudes that are exactly the same as other antisemites.

    That about right?

    You are devaluing the term itself in order to provide a smokescreen for the legitimate grievances of the victims of the Zionist enterprise which is sad imo
    Once again, the Iraqis and the Saudis and on and on have no legitimate grievances with the Israelis. In fact the Israelis have way more legitimate grievances with them, since they are the ones who threw out fully half of Israel's population.

    And once again they don't give two ****s about the Palestinians so any transitive grievance hypothesis is obviously bunk.

    But thank you for your concern about whether the term antisemitism is devalued. Maybe one way to think about not devaluing it is to stop excusing and justifying antisemitism, which is exactly what you are doing here. Just a thought.

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    Re: Terror Tunnels ?

    So what is the purpose of these tunnels?
    Thank you

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