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The Blockade of Gaza[W:37]

Re: The Blockade of Gaza

And people should be aware that the potential for closure of Gaza to the outside world was in place BEFORE Hamas were elected IE what was required to enable a blockade was ALREADY there and restrictions of goods and people was already being enforced

Before Hamas was elected, progress was being made -- Sharon gave part of Gaza back to the Gazans as a gesture of good will.

How did the Gazans repay that kindness?

By electing a terrorist group to lead them.
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

How about being honest about all of this?

The UN Partition agreement did establish two states, Israel for Jews, Jordan for muslims.

Yes let's be honest and also factually correct

The UN partition plan did not create Jordan as the Palestinian state because Jordan wasn;t part of the land to be partitioned. Jordan was created in the early 1920's .

The partition recommended both a Jewish state and a Palestinian state on land that was completely separate from the state of Jordan

Both muslims and Jews suffered abuse, rape, pillage and death at the hands of Europeans, the same villains, who weren't merely satisfied with murdering, raping and torturing each other, but required many other targets throughout this world. The religion of peace (choking on these words) could have offered succor to the Jews who survived Nazi and other Europeans' depredations. They could have said, "We suffer from the same evil people, cousins come live with us and together we will build a better world." They did not. They chose war.

Our nations exists because of European rapaciousness, greed, lies and murder. No one who is a citizen of this country or Canada is any different, benefitting from European rapaciousness, greed, lies and murder. There is no higher moral ground in North America.

More than 5,000 years of strife and war, greed, rape, lies and murder in the mideast. Anyone who claims their opinions offer peace for this region is self deluded and vain. Satan was the most beautiful of all angels, God's favorite, and God cast him down from the heavens for his vanity.

Anyone from the Americas or Europe who claim they have a solution for peace in the mideast is FOS. Acting and speaking from their own vanity for their own agendas on the world stage. Who will you blame for mideast strife. The Jews who suffered as wanderers for two thousand years, or muslims who freely admit they are at war with world, "SUBMIT OR DIE." They choose to see the sacrifice of a son as justification for demanding submission. Jews, and later Christians, recognized that the willingness to sacrifice as son showed God was not vengeful, not preferred goodness, and did not demand death, an axial moment of forgiveness, and axial moment favoring peace over war and no need for sacrifice by human beings of human beings. The religion of peace is a religion of death, sacrifice of life, submission, denial of life. Who do you blame?

Don't get me wrong, no one is above hypocrisy. But we are all capable of not accepting the endless lies, including the antisemitism against Jews who maintained their culture and religion separately for two thousand years of wandering.

Well perhaps it is because they are the chosen people. The birthright Esau claimed was stolen from him. The covenant, the promise, to spread God's words and suffer for doing so. Jews have suffered enough,

You say when Israel treats their enemies as human beings. Let's get specific. Gaza, and Egyptian territory, captured during war, and don't call out international law saying territorial acquisition by war was outlawed by Europeans who suffered two world wars on the basis of gaining territory by war, wanted to eliminate that excuse, but face the fact, Gaza was gained as a spoil of war, the Israelis didn't start and didn't want. Israel offered to return Gaza back to Egypt, and Egypt said no. Israel offered Gaza to Jordan, the Arab muslim state, and Jordan said no. Israel withdrew from Gaza, leaving thousands of greenhouses behind for growing food. The refugees smashed the greenhouses. How should Israel treat greenhouse destroyers? People who shoot rockets and mortars, and stab children and women to death at random, people who teach their children nothing but hate?

Israel still gives them free medical care with no questions asked, collects their taxes from them so the revenues cannot be stolen easily by corrupt leaders, provides humanitarian food donations, and so on. What other nation feeds its enemies and tend to their health care? How do you treat people who treat themselves as animals, not as animals?

The above is an odd mix of honesty about European colonialist exploitation , Israeli state propaganda , historical inaccuracies and anti Muslim/Arab racism aimed at dehumanizing them

For instance the greenhouses you referred to were first " smashed up " by outgoing Israeli settlers, then stripped of irrigation parts by looting Palestinians , then rebuilt and used to produce food only to see the border crossing restrictions spoil the project so much it went bankrupt and was shut down

https://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/propaganda-dehumanize-palestinians/

There are so many points of contention in that post that to take it to task point by point would be the work of months but the last sentence ,imo , should tell everyone that read it all they need to know about what sort of a perspective it came from
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

And around we go. palestinian violence led to these restrictions. The restrictions did not cause the violence.


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Palestinian violence is the reason why Isreal took their ancestral homes away? lolwhut?
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

Before Hamas was elected, progress was being made -- Sharon gave part of Gaza back to the Gazans as a gesture of good will.

How did the Gazans repay that kindness?

By electing a terrorist group to lead them.

We,ve been through this before.

Israel didn't give Gaza back in a good will gesture.

It removed the settlers so it didn't have the headache of having half of the IDF there to protect them in a place it neither needed or wanted. It relocated the settlers to territories in other peoples land that it DOES want.

They moved the prison guards from inside the prison to the perimeter fence and you call it a good will gesture

The hardship caused by the restrictions even prior to the Hamas election victory and the enforcement of a complete blockade meant that Gaza had no chance for self determination in any meaningful way nor the chance to develop an independent or vibrant economy.

And if attacking your neighbours is grounds for disqualification from any participation or a case for delegitimisation then why don't you apply it to the Israeli side which has attacked numerous nations on numerous occasions and denied the Palestinians their right to self determination for decades along with wholesale denial of their human rights over the same period , ongoing ?
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

Thank you for providing a justification for the Palestinians trying to murder Israelis.

And since the occupation was a response to the violence and not a cause, it only reinforces my point.


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And the violence was a response to ongoing Israeli actions/violence aimed at dispossession and displacement of Arabs
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

We,ve been through this before.

Israel didn't give Gaza back in a good will gesture.

It removed the settlers so it didn't have the headache of having half of the IDF there to protect them in a place it neither needed or wanted. It relocated the settlers to territories in other peoples land that it DOES want.

They moved the prison guards from inside the prison to the perimeter fence and you call it a good will gesture

The hardship caused by the restrictions even prior to the Hamas election victory and the enforcement of a complete blockade meant that Gaza had no chance for self determination in any meaningful way nor the chance to develop an independent or vibrant economy.

And if attacking your neighbours is grounds for disqualification from any participation or a case for delegitimisation then why don't you apply it to the Israeli side which has attacked numerous nations on numerous occasions and denied the Palestinians their right to self determination for decades along with wholesale denial of their human rights over the same period , ongoing ?

You were wrong before and you're still wrong.

In 2003, the then-prime minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon, announced that Israel would unilaterally withdraw about 8,500 settlers from its 21 settlements in the Gaza Strip, and pull out its army as well. The territory would be handed over, in its entirety, to the Palestinian Authority.

How did Gazans respond? First, looters destroyed the vast settlement greenhouses that could have formed the basis of a new Gaza economy. Then, voters elected into power Hamas, a terrorist organization devoted to the annihilation of Israel. Gaza quickly became a launching pad for rocket attacks against Israeli towns.

In response, Israel blockaded Gaza to keep weapons from reaching its enemies. It was this blockade that pro-Hamas activists, many of them from Turkey, were trying to breach when their flotilla was boarded by Israeli forces last year. Nine activists were killed. The flotilla raid, and the subsequent collapse of relations between the two countries, can be traced in large part to Sharon's decision.

Repeating falsehoods never makes the true.
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

It is indeed international law when the UN continues to label Gaza and the West bank as occupied territories. This is fact when they are under blockade and all entry is under Isreal and Egyptian control. It is also fact that Palestinian land has been taken and controlled by Isreal, and they refuse to give them back to their original owners. Claiming land by conquest is just pure tyranny and is against international law. Iraq was ejected from Kuwait after they invaded it.

International laws are broken by countries who find them inconvenient everyday, they are not often enforced. Has anyone forced China out of Tibet? Claiming land by conquest is tradition. Both your country and mine exist because of claiming land by conquest. Will you give your home back to the First Nations?

Gaza was part of Egypt for 4k years. Who is living in Gaza? Egyptians? Or those who made a defacto conquest? Both Columbia and Peru occupy lands of Ecuador, captured during the last 20 years of border wars started more than 100 years ago. Where is your outrage?

80% of Israeli land was purchased from Ottoman officials or local Sheiks. Put that in your hat. 10-12% of Israeli land was claimed by no one, desert lands no one wanted. Most refugees fled because the Grand Mufti and Arab leaders claimed they would destroy Israel, push the Jews into the sea and they could then return and take more land than they owned before they fled. Meanwhile, those same leaders had drawn agreements between them, guided by the Grand Mufti, how they would split the spoils of war, the lands of Israel. The best laid plans........
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

Yes let's be honest and also factually correct

The UN partition plan did not create Jordan as the Palestinian state because Jordan wasn;t part of the land to be partitioned. Jordan was created in the early 1920's .

The partition recommended both a Jewish state and a Palestinian state on land that was completely separate from the state of Jordan



The above is an odd mix of honesty about European colonialist exploitation , Israeli state propaganda , historical inaccuracies and anti Muslim/Arab racism aimed at dehumanizing them

For instance the greenhouses you referred to were first " smashed up " by outgoing Israeli settlers, then stripped of irrigation parts by looting Palestinians , then rebuilt and used to produce food only to see the border crossing restrictions spoil the project so much it went bankrupt and was shut down

https://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/propaganda-dehumanize-palestinians/

There are so many points of contention in that post that to take it to task point by point would be the work of months but the last sentence ,imo , should tell everyone that read it all they need to know about what sort of a perspective it came from

Horse manure.
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

International laws are broken by countries who find them inconvenient everyday, they are not often enforced. Has anyone forced China out of Tibet? Claiming land by conquest is tradition. Both your country and mine exist because of claiming land by conquest. Will you give your home back to the First Nations?

Gaza was part of Egypt for 4k years. Who is living in Gaza? Egyptians? Or those who made a defacto conquest? Both Columbia and Peru occupy lands of Ecuador, captured during the last 20 years of border wars started more than 100 years ago. Where is your outrage?

80% of Israeli land was purchased from Ottoman officials or local Sheiks. Put that in your hat. 10-12% of Israeli land was claimed by no one, desert lands no one wanted. Most refugees fled because the Grand Mufti and Arab leaders claimed they would destroy Israel, push the Jews into the sea and they could then return and take more land than they owned before they fled. Meanwhile, those same leaders had drawn agreements between them, guided by the Grand Mufti, how they would split the spoils of war, the lands of Israel. The best laid plans........

Believing in conquest making everything right pretty much means you'd accept whatever happened to its victims, like what the Jews suffered through during WW2. You may want that, but I dont.

Contrary to what you think, the Muslims were not a monolithic, single group during the Isreali war of independence either. The Palestinians were just used by both sides, and most of them had hardly any say in it.
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

And people should be aware that the potential for closure of Gaza to the outside world was in place BEFORE Hamas were elected IE what was required to enable a blockade was ALREADY there and restrictions of goods and people was already being enforced
Potential for closure, lol, what does that even mean? What the definition of Potential for closure? There was a blockade or not?
So now we are talking about the potential for closure instead of blockade, it seems that you are trying to save your wrong argument even though there not much to save.
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

That will only happen when Isreal starts treating Palestinians as human beings.

Nonsense.
It will happen when the Arabs will accept the idea of Jews in the ME.
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

And people should be aware that the potential for closure of Gaza to the outside world was in place BEFORE Hamas were elected IE what was required to enable a blockade was ALREADY there and restrictions of goods and people was already being enforced

Shocker. Randomly enough, there were continuous efforts from Gaza to murder Israelis before that time too. Who would have seen that causation coming? Oh right, everyone paying attention.


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Re: The Blockade of Gaza

Palestinian violence is the reason why Isreal took their ancestral homes away? lolwhut?

Again, complete drift to a different point. You can rage against the Jews having their own country somewhere else. This was about not pretending that closures of Gaza are unrelated to attempts from Gaza to murder Israelis.


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Re: The Blockade of Gaza

And the violence was a response to ongoing Israeli actions/violence aimed at dispossession and displacement of Arabs

No it wasn’t. It was a response to the Jews having their own country.


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Re: The Blockade of Gaza

Believing in conquest making everything right pretty much means you'd accept whatever happened to its victims, like what the Jews suffered through during WW2. You may want that, but I dont.

Absurd. Equating genocide with conquest and territorial imperatives is a total failure of logic, a conflation with no evidence. Did the Armenian victims of Turkish genocidal behavior suffer a conquest? Jews in Germany were never conquered, in fact more than enough were heroes of German forces during WWI.

Contrary to what you think, the Muslims were not a monolithic, single group during the Isreali war of independence either. The Palestinians were just used by both sides, and most of them had hardly any say in it.[/QUOTE]

You don't know what I think, and it certainly isn't that muslim are homogenized, but there is no doubt, submission is the underlying basis of the religion, despite that some muslims fought side by side with the IDF in 1948-49 and since then. Read a bible, Satan was the most charming of the angels. And I am not a man of any religion you know.
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

You were wrong before and you're still wrong.

Nope, the disengagement by Israel from Gaza was for Israels benefit as per the points I made that you chose to ignore.


Repeating falsehoods never makes the true.

I don't understand what you are referring to. That's not my post and the parts highlighted are random

It appears the only thing I might have gotten wrong was that the departing Israeli settlers dismantled some of the greenhouses and didn't destroy them.

The greenhouses were bought and given to the PA but the persistent closure of the Karni crossing meant the venture went bankrupt. That's all easily verifiable and true

If you have some counter arguments then make them instead of making vague and false comments yourself using other peoples posts
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

Horse manure.

Quality response.........look on the bright side at least you now know that Jordan was never part of the UN partition plan
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

Nope, the disengagement by Israel from Gaza was for Israels benefit as per the points I made that you chose to ignore.

I don't understand what you are referring to. That's not my post and the parts highlighted are random

It appears the only thing I might have gotten wrong was that the departing Israeli settlers dismantled some of the greenhouses and didn't destroy them.

The greenhouses were bought and given to the PA but the persistent closure of the Karni crossing meant the venture went bankrupt. That's all easily verifiable and true

If you have some counter arguments then make them instead of making vague and false comments yourself using other peoples posts


My bad for not citing -- that was a story in The Atlantic.

https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...d-israel-give-up-territory-after-gaza/244995/

Control of the land was going to be turned over to PA, until Hamas was elected, which changed everything.
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

Nonsense.
It will happen when the Arabs will accept the idea of Jews in the ME.

When will Netanyahu type Jews accept Arabs in the Middle East? And radical Likudists?

Israel 🇮🇱 is exhibit A as to why a Free Nation should NEVER have 12 parties, forcing coalitions to steal Arab Land for Settlers, the #1 problem Israel presents.
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

Nonsense.
It will happen when the Arabs will accept the idea of Jews in the ME.

They already have. The Arab peace initiatives should tell you that much. They all vote in favour of the two state solution in the UN every year , or certainly not against it as the US and Israel do every year , which is the acceptance of Jews in the ME

The problem is solely with the Palestinians and Israel because they are the ones who are actually residing in the area Israel/Israelis sees as its own, when it isn't their own.

POS is correct in his analysis imo, stop treating the Palestinians wretchedly and make a fair peace deal like has happened with Jordan and Egypt
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

Potential for closure, lol, what does that even mean? What the definition of Potential for closure? There was a blockade or not?
So now we are talking about the potential for closure instead of blockade, it seems that you are trying to save your wrong argument even though there not much to save.

It means that if you ever want to blockade a territory you will need the means to do it. The Philadelphia Corridor/security border , the border between Egypt and Gaza was already in place prior to Hamas' election victory as was the Gaza/Israeli border fence/buffer zone. As was the closure of the only airport in Gaza when it was destroyed by Israel in 2001. As were the lock downs on all the crossing points. The Israeli navy already patrolled Gazan waters too.

As I said earlier the means to completely blockade Gaza were in place by the end of 2001, years before Hamas were voted in
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

Shocker. Randomly enough, there were continuous efforts from Gaza to murder Israelis before that time too. Who would have seen that causation coming? Oh right, everyone paying attention.


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We can argue about the justifications or not but that's not the point I am making.

The restrictions and potential for Israel to completely blockade Gaza were in place by the end of 2001.

There were also continuous efforts by Palestinians to stop Israel occupying , illegally settling and murdering them too as well as a complete denial of all of their rights
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

No it wasn’t. It was a response to the Jews having their own country.


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We have been through this before................ Palestinian antagonism towards Zionism was what marked the start of the problem because if realized it meant dispossession and displacement for them
 
Re: The Blockade of Gaza

They already have. The Arab peace initiatives should tell you that much. They all vote in favour of the two state solution in the UN every year , or certainly not against it as the US and Israel do every year , which is the acceptance of Jews in the ME

The problem is solely with the Palestinians and Israel because they are the ones who are actually residing in the area Israel/Israelis sees as its own, when it isn't their own.

POS is correct in his analysis imo, stop treating the Palestinians wretchedly and make a fair peace deal like has happened with Jordan and Egypt

If the Right of Return were removed from the initiatives -- it would pass in a heartbeat.

As it is -- leaving a right of return in there would be a death sentence for Israel, and that, of course, is why Israel votes it down and the ones who want to see the end of Israel for for it.
 
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