The Blockade of Gaza[W:37]

CJ 2.0 said:

What?

He was recognizing historical facts.

Again, reality-based discussions are always to be preferred to discussions based on invented falsehoods.

Israel, Judea, Samaria and Gaza have an absolutely overwhelming volume of history. The only Palestinian history in the area happens after 1948, with some proto-Palestinian history starting with the development of Palestinian nationalism in the early 20th century (I say proto because if the Arabs had won in 48 there would not have been a palestinian state and the “palestinians”, such as they were, would have been absorbed into the national identities of the various Arab states.)



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No he was indulging in the no people , no state for the Palestinians routine .............. the very thing that if said about Jewish people and/or Israel is , in yours and their opinion , the pinnacle of vile racism

It's funny too that everything you decry people for saying about the Jews is what you say about the Palestinians

The Palestinians , I noticed , are placed in inverted commas denoting that they are not a people. The partition plan that is used to legitimize the founding of the state of Israel ALSO declared there be a Palestinian state. But you don't want people to see it that way

In short to you they are a made up people with no legitimate territorial claims and a fictional history who should bow to Jewish supremacy and go and live in other Arab countries

Re: The Blockade of Gaza

Apocalypse said:

Facts are to be recognized. Israel exists and that's a fact, and so is the fact that there was never a Palestinian state in the region, only a territory named Palestine by its occupiers.

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Same thing for you............... the Palestinians are a fiction . A made up people that should have no state of their own and should just submit to their displacement and dispossession by racially superior Jews from around the globe

The fact to recognize is that the partition created two states in mandate Palestine , a Jewish one and an Arab one. That some of the Arab one was conquered and became Israel and the rest has been occupied by others will never change that fact

Re: The Blockade of Gaza

oneworld2 said:

Same thing for you............... the Palestinians are a fiction . A made up people that should have no state of their own and should just submit to their displacement and dispossession by racially superior Jews from around the globe

The fact to recognize is that the partition created two states in mandate Palestine , a Jewish one and an Arab one. That some of the Arab one was conquered and became Israel and the rest has been occupied by others will never change that fact

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First part is a funny yet racist strawman argument by those who recognize their argument is inherently false and easily destroyed.
Second part is a demonstration of how to deny facts and create one's own reality, again because one realizes his argument is inherently false and easily destroyed.

The Partition Plan didn't create two states. It was supposed to, but it didn't. There was as such no state that was "conquered" during the Israeli war of independence against the attackers.
So what you were told by three posters was correct, and what you're insisting on is false and made up. Question your entire world view if you came to the point you are required to stick with completely made up lies to continue an argument.

Re: The Blockade of Gaza

Apocalypse said:

First part is a funny yet racist strawman argument by those who recognize their argument is inherently false and easily destroyed.
Second part is a demonstration of how to deny facts and create one's own reality, again because one realizes his argument is inherently false and easily destroyed.

The Partition Plan didn't create two states. It was supposed to, but it didn't. There was as such no state that was "conquered" during the Israeli war of independence against the attackers.
So what you were told by three posters was correct, and what you're insisting on is false and made up. Question your entire world view if you came to the point you are required to stick with completely made up lies to continue an argument.

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imo and you are entitled to disagree with it

The partition plan was only voted in/supported precisely because it created the two states out of the mandate territory , fact.

That the Arab state was partially swallowed up by Israel due to by Arab aggression/ Israel expansionism/opportunism and the rest of it occupied by by Jordan and Egypt doesn't change that.

Once the signing of the Geneva convention by Israel had committed it into recognizing and adhering to its provisions including the criminalization of the acquisition of territory via warfare they had lost their legitimacy in their bid to swallow up all of the mandate territory. Jordanian attempts at annexation of the WB were never recognized. Egypt administered but never tried to annexe Gaza .

The 67 attack by Israel lead to Israeli occupation of what remained of the would be Palestinian state. Likewise the Israeli attempts at annexation have no legitimacy or recognition seeing as the Geneva Convention applied to those territories.

This is an argument based on legality ,morality and justice................... your adversity to it imo shows a contempt for these very concepts

Re: The Blockade of Gaza

oneworld2 said:

imo and you are entitled to disagree with it

The partition plan was only voted in/supported precisely because it created the two states out of the mandate territory , fact.

That the Arab state was partially swallowed up by Israel due to by Arab aggression/ Israel expansionism/opportunism and the rest of it occupied by by Jordan and Egypt doesn't change that.

Once the signing of the Geneva convention by Israel had committed it into recognizing and adhering to its provisions including the criminalization of the acquisition of territory via warfare they had lost their legitimacy in their bid to swallow up all of the mandate territory. Jordanian attempts at annexation of the WB were never recognized. Egypt administered but never tried to annexe Gaza .

The 67 attack by Israel lead to Israeli occupation of what remained of the would be Palestinian state. Likewise the Israeli attempts at annexation have no legitimacy or recognition seeing as the Geneva Convention applied to those territories.

This is an argument based on legality ,morality and justice................... your adversity to it imo shows a contempt for these very concepts

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The partition plan was voted on to create two states, yes, doens't mean two states were created, if they were, if the Partition Plan was accepted, there'd be no conflict later.
You claimed it created a state for the Palestinian-Arabs and you were clearly wrong and speaking out of ignorance not knowing what happened in 1947-1948 as you're not familiar enough with the conflict.

Re: The Blockade of Gaza

Apocalypse said:

The partition plan was voted on to create two states, yes, doens't mean two states were created, if they were, if the Partition Plan was accepted, there'd be no conflict later.
You claimed it created a state for the Palestinian-Arabs and you were clearly wrong and speaking out of ignorance not knowing what happened in 1947-1948 as you're not familiar enough with the conflict.

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He is attempting (poorly) to rewrite history. Not going to work for him.

Re: The Blockade of Gaza

Apocalypse said:

The partition plan was voted on to create two states, yes, doens't mean two states were created, if they were, if the Partition Plan was accepted, there'd be no conflict later.

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You don't know whether Arab acceptance of the Partition Plan would have averted conflict later on. The documents from the Israeli archives of meetings and plans around that time and earlier speak of the Israeli acceptance of the area allocated to Israel in the plan being merely a stepping stone to a larger Israeli state that they would create themselves. To quote Ben Gurion

"The debate has not been for or against the indivisibility of Eretz Israel. No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of Eretz Israel. The Debate was over which of two routes would lead quicker to the common goal."

" "A partial Jewish State is not the end, but only the beginning. … I am certain that we well not be prevented from settling in the other parts of the country, either by mutual agreements with our Arab neighbors or by some other means. . . [If the Arabs refuse] we shall have to speak to them in another language. But we shall only have another language if we have a state."

Evidently the plan was to foist Israeli expansion on the Arabs by any means , preferably through negotiation but if not through warfare. Subsequent events only confirm that this strategy has continued through time

You claimed it created a state for the Palestinian-Arabs and you were clearly wrong and speaking out of ignorance not knowing what happened in 1947-1948 as you're not familiar enough with the conflict.

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It did create the boundaries/borders for the Palestinian state and those borders still to this day define what is regarded as Occupied Palestinian Territories with the addition of East Jerusalem. Whatever Israel managed to conquer was added to that partition territory whatever they failed to conquer in 1947-49 became part of the future Palestinian state even if that state was under Arab occupation. That's why nobody recognized the attempts by various occupiers to annexe this territory

As I said earlier , this is a position based on the history of this conflict , on legal concepts , basic morality and justice.................. that you appear to be struggling with it might show a lack of understanding/appreciation of these concepts

Re: The Blockade of Gaza

oneworld2 said:

You don't know whether Arab acceptance of the Partition Plan would have averted conflict later on. The documents from the Israeli archives of meetings and plans around that time and earlier speak of the Israeli acceptance of the area allocated to Israel in the plan being merely a stepping stone to a larger Israeli state that they would create themselves. To quote Ben Gurion

"The debate has not been for or against the indivisibility of Eretz Israel. No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of Eretz Israel. The Debate was over which of two routes would lead quicker to the common goal."

" "A partial Jewish State is not the end, but only the beginning. … I am certain that we well not be prevented from settling in the other parts of the country, either by mutual agreements with our Arab neighbors or by some other means. . . [If the Arabs refuse] we shall have to speak to them in another language. But we shall only have another language if we have a state."

Evidently the plan was to foist Israeli expansion on the Arabs by any means , preferably through negotiation but if not through warfare. Subsequent events only confirm that this strategy has continued through time

Click to expand...

Conflict probably wouldn't continue if the Arabs accepted the Partition Plan which means also accepting the Jewish state.
Clearly if there was a mutual acceptance of the Jewish and Arab states then it means that the bottom line of the conflict, the control over the territory of Israel, would be removed from the table and hence the conflict itself would have had no reason to exist.
Arguments created through alleged quotations of Ben-Gurion by Chomsky ain't really arguments. But that's meaningless to this discussion and let's not lose focus from the main point which is that you were wrong about the Partition Plan and what it did and did not create.

It did create the boundaries/borders for the Palestinian state and those borders still to this day define what is regarded as Occupied Palestinian Territories with the addition of East Jerusalem. Whatever Israel managed to conquer was added to that partition territory whatever they failed to conquer in 1947-49 became part of the future Palestinian state even if that state was under Arab occupation. That's why nobody recognized the attempts by various occupiers to annexe this territory

As I said earlier , this is a position based on the history of this conflict , on legal concepts , basic morality and justice.................. that you appear to be struggling with it might show a lack of understanding/appreciation of these concepts

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We based the fact that it didn't create a Palestinian state and hence your argument doesn't carry any water to it.
You thought mistakengly that it did and thought that this state that never came to exist was then conquered by the state of Israel, as you weren't aware of the history of the conflict and the basic facts surrounding it.
We can move on now that it was based that you were wrong.