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Israel and Gaza moving towards full-blown war. [W:23]

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oneworld2 said:
I never claimed they were harmless , that's just you kind making straw men so you could have saved yourself the trouble on compiling the above
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You continue to MINIMIZE the threat.

And you are intentionally ignorant as to the capabilities of the rockets discussed.
 
Fledermaus said:
What are "pipe rockets"?

Do you smoke them?
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Same question to you, What's another name for a metal cylinder ?

Cross word clue................ metal cylinder four letters

And note the word MINIMIZE which is what you continue to try to do.
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You quoted yourself in a post that doesn't contain the word :roll:
 
oneworld2 said:
It's an accurate assessment. That you choose to live in denial as to the control Israel still exerts over Gazans is what's being stupid. I listed them and you ignored them because you chose denial of the facts.
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Incorrect.

The land was ceded to the Palestinians - FACT

Who then used to land to launch tens of thousands of rocket, mortar, suicide, knife and sniper attacks against Israel. = FACT
 
oneworld2 said:
Same question to you, What's another name for a metal cylinder ?

Cross word clue................ metal cylinder four letters



You quoted yourself in a post that doesn't contain the word :roll:
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It isn't "pipe firework" your original stupid statement.

Pipes don't have aerodynamic noses, fins, warhead and propellant...

Fledermaus said:
Minimizing them as mere "pipe rockets"....

Very stupid given their range and payload.
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Try failing less.
 
oneworld2 said:
Clue , what's another name for a metal cylinder ? :roll:
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Barrel, circular solid, volumetric curve, chamber, piston, roll tube, bottle, canister, container, drum, tank?

Pipe rockets are generally defined as less than 12-18" long. Not 6 feet. Iranian made rockets are not toys, neither are 4-6' explosive loaded Qassam rockets.
 
oneworld2 said:
Reads , I have made two assertions that have been completely rubbished so now I will play the not enough dead Jews card even though the context of the debate on rockets , whether they are collectively sophisticated and deadly, has nothing to do with it

You really are clutching at straws here
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lol. What assertions have been "rubbished"? You are specifically and explicitly making a not enough dead Jews argument.

Own it.
 
oneworld2 said:
I'll stop you right there because you know full well that the context of this debate is concerned with how sophisticated and/or deadly these rockets are or not, that's it. . The debate on whether Israel is justified in responding to them ( and whether they themselves are a justified response or not to Israeli actions/policies ) is a different debate.
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No it isn't.

We've seen this game before with the "disproportionate" responses to suicide bombers and rockets and everything else. The anti-Israel folks use this argument all the time to say sure the Jews are justified in theory to responding but it has to be "proportionate", which it isn't based on the casualty figures. You guys make those arguments ALL THE TIME, and this is just you getting called on it and pretending it's a half argument where we notionally aren't discussing whether Jews cause cancer we are just, you know, observing that lots of cancer happens to be diagnosed by Jewish doctors.

You have also falsely accused me of claiming the rockets are " harmless ". I asked you to show me where I stated that and you couldn't provide anything to back it because I never said it
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wow. The "harmless rocket" argument is a generic descriptor of the kidnds of arguments you guys use. Some explicitly come out like others on this forum and say that they are homemade firecrackers, while others focus on their ineffectiveness. They are all variants of the same thing, which is to try to justify opposition to Israeli actions to defend themselves against the rockets.

And while I have called it the "harmless rocket" argument it really applies to everything deadly that you guys oppose the Jews defending themselves against. We've seen the argument with the incendiary kites, we have seen it with the random stabbing attacks, we have seen it over and over again.

You now turn up again and do the same kind of misrepresentative posting and claim , again , it's " like I said "
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You specifically invited us to compare casualties for the purposes of arguing that Israel is in the wrong for acting in response. That is explicitly a "not enough dead jews" argument, because the argument, such that it is some sort of logical statement (which is a bit of a stretch, honestly), would warrant coming to a different conclusion if just more Jews had been successfully killed by the Palestinians.

Like I said, just own it. Or come up with arguments that are not merely empty variations on the 2 standard anti-Israel propaganda line
 
oneworld2 said:
Straw man , I asked you where I stated the rockets were harmless and you couldn't provide anything to back your assertion up.

The confines of the discussion were concerned with the fact that most./vast majority of the rockets coming out of Gaza are not of a military standard. To point that out has nothing to do with questions of justification

I f you want to carry on with this stop misrepresenting peoples post content and ignoring the context remarks were made under
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Once again, you said "how many fatalities have they caused ? Know the answer to that question and it puts your hyperbole over the rockets from Gaza into perspective"

This is a "harmless rockets" argument, now isn't it? So they haven't caused very many fatalities, right? That's what you were implying, right? So now that we know the "answer" that was meant to, what was it again ... "put your hyperbole over the rockets from gaza into perspective".

So cause the rockets haven't killed lots of people, the whole "these rockets are a big deal and justify the Jews defending themselves" thing is overblown, according to you.

Which very neatly combines the not enough dead jews argument (which you drew on explicitly) and the harmless rockets one (describing the concern from rockets fired on Israeli civilians as hyperbole).

Again, this isn't hard, just the anti-Israel tactics are so over-used as to be laughable for those of us who know better. At some point you folks will even see what you are doing on your own without assistance.
 
oneworld2 said:
Why are you trying to hide from the fact that most of the rockets are gunpowder in pipes that cannot be targeted , just set off in a general direction. Everyone seems to know this except for you
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ok chief, so let's play. I can guarantee this will lead to either (or both) arguments 1 and 2.

What is the purpose of your observation that "most of the rockets are gunpowder in pipes that cannot be targeted". And what policy implications do you think this observation implies?
 
MrMike said:
Gaza would make a nice parking lot... except there's really nothing over there to go park for. It's not a very nice area down there.
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But here's the thing. It is actually really nice. Great waterfront, excellent climate.

If the people in Gaza had the cultural and governance institutions combined with the will to make peace and give up on their dream of destroying Israel, Gaza could be every bit as gorgeous as Tel Aviv.

Sad that they seem completely unwilling to make that trade.
 
oneworld2 said:
That doesn't alter the fact that most Palestinians that took part in those protests did so peacefully. Not some , but the vast majority
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Funny, but that also doesn't alter the fact that most Palestinians who took part in these "protests" did so without injury. How did you put it ... "Not some , but the vast majority"

None of that changes the nature of the violent riots aimed at breaching the border.

Nor does it change the nature of the "protest" itself, which was EXPLICITLY (no matter how you try to deny it) for the purposes of seeking Israel's destruction through the phony "right of return". That ain't a peace march, and that ain't a march seeking independence for Gaza.

And see, every single word of this is true, so not sure where you go from here.

That's not the truth but I'm not surprised that you think it is the truth. As I often say , and you ignore , the killing of Gazans in Israeli air strikes is a common occurrence. You seem to think that there are only violent instances when there is an escalation , like the recent protests.
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Yeah, Israel going after terrorists before they kill people is totally unjustified. Jews need to be killed first, so you can then decry the "cycle of violence" when Israel responds.

We've seen this movie before.
 
oneworld2 said:
Clue , what's another name for a metal cylinder ? :roll:
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And right here is one of the biggest problems with the modern left. They think that when language doesn't say what they want it to say they can just change the language.

So if people accept one idea and reject another, they can just change the meaning of the word people accept and insert in its stead the thing that people reject.

I know this particular example isn't the civilization altering fight that we see the left pushing for all the time (see e.g., the definitions of "racism" or closer to this discussion the leftist use of the term "protest" to describe violent aggressive action, whether in Gaza or Berkeley), but it's the same thing.

The term "pipe rockets" means something. You don't get to alter the meaning because in your mind the term could mean something else. You don't get to pretend that a nuclear intercontinental ballistic missile is a pipe rocket because the missile is made out of a big pipe and a missile is just a guided rocket. And you don't get to pretend that military rockets are "pipe rockets" because they're not.

It is a concerted effort to minimize the severity of the threat as part of a propaganda effort to oppose Israel's efforts to defend itself. We see it from anti-Israel zealots all the time and it is ridiculous. And I get that leftists feel that is the natural way to "argue" but it isn't.

Again. Words have meaning. You don't get to change them. Have a nice day.
 
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oneworld2 said:
That doesn't alter the fact that most Palestinians that took part in those protests did so peacefully. Not some , but the vast majority
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The majority, many of whom march out of fear of Hamas.


That's not the truth but I'm not surprised that you think it is the truth. As I often say , and you ignore , the killing of Gazans in Israeli air strikes is a common occurrence. You seem to think that there are only violent instances when there is an escalation , like the recent protests.
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Only as retaliatory air strikes. Hamas starts it every time.

The prison and blockade was in place before Hamas were voted in , they just ramped up the blockade as a result. The crossing you are talking of is Rafah not Haifa. This level of ignorance of the subject matter in this conflict is a feature of your posts imo
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Not nearly to the extent they've been restricted since Gazans elected Hamas. Keep in mind that not just Israel feels that way -- Egypt does as well. Hamas is trouble.

You evidently don't understand the dynamics of the region. imo. Egypt is an Israeli accomplice in the punishment ( for resisting ) of the Palestinians in Gaza. Has been for ages and has a lot to do with internal Egyptian concerns that I doubt you know much about either
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LOL -- I know plenty about both, and your broad generalizations do not begin to touch the subject.

Evidence of them doing so would be appreciated. Unless of course you have a different opinion to me as to what constitutes as a Little child .
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https://nypost.com/2015/05/02/un-report-outlines-how-hamas-used-kids-as-human-shields/


What Hamas actions do I " defend " apart from their legitimate right to resist Israeli domination and control of their lives ?
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You sure seem to be defending them at every turn. They fire rockets or send fire kites or shoot Israelis, and you never condemn them -- you only condemn Israel's response. You don't seem to understand that if Hamas didn't start trouble, there would be no response, hence, the blood of the dead Gazans is on Hamas' hands.

From the superficial gaze you decide to adopt regarding events , history etc, I suppose it is
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If you call my opinion "superficial" I have a good idea that you're getting your information from such dubious sources as Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. Hmmm?
 
OldFatGuy said:
Barrel, circular solid, volumetric curve, chamber, piston, roll tube, bottle, canister, container, drum, tank?

Pipe rockets are generally defined as less than 12-18" long. Not 6 feet. Iranian made rockets are not toys, neither are 4-6' explosive loaded Qassam rockets.
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I didn't think there was such an actual thing as a pipe rocket. Every day is a school day

For the amount of victims these rockets have claimed , even before the Iron Dome system , the claims by some that they are sophisticated and or deadly doesn't stack up imo
 
CJ 2.0 said:
lol. What assertions have been "rubbished"? You are specifically and explicitly making a not enough dead Jews argument.

Own it.
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You suggested that I claimed that the rockets from Gaza are harmless when what I actually claimed was that the vast majority of them are unsophisticated/not military standard ( as per the other poster here inferred )

That's a different thing and can be discussed as a separate argument to questions of justifications

You know this but keep to trying to ignore the context
 
oneworld2 said:
I didn't think there was such an actual thing as a pipe rocket. Every day is a school day

For the amount of victims these rockets have claimed , even before the Iron Dome system , the claims by some that they are sophisticated and or deadly doesn't stack up imo
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So either we don't have enough dead Jews to justify the Jews defending themselves and or the rockets are not deadly so claims that they are sufficiently harmful to justify taking defensive action don't stack up (harmless lite)?
 
oneworld2 said:
You suggested that I claimed that the rockets from Gaza are harmless when what I actually claimed was that the vast majority of them are unsophisticated/not military standard ( as per the other poster here inferred )

That's a different thing and can be discussed as a separate argument to questions of justifications

You know this but keep to trying to ignore the context
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context? The context is opposition by you and other anti-Israelis to any and all efforts by Israel to protect itself from people who have the explicit and exclusive war aim of destroying their country. That is the context, and you guys prefer we not pay attention to it, so it's a bit rich for you to suddenly be really concerned about some other imaginary context.
 
HowardBThiname said:
The majority, many of whom march out of fear of Hamas.
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You don't know that , it's just speculation. What is for sure , as far as you are concerned , is that they cannot be involved in the protests because of the Israeli policies that blight their lives



Only as retaliatory air strikes. Hamas starts it every time.
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You don't know that either it's just more speculation and a denial that Israeli forces regularly kill people in Gaza in periods of relative quiet many of which lead to retaliatory rocket attacks on Gaza which play into Israeli hands.

How many rockets accompanied the first period of the protest marches where 150+ Gazans were shot dead ?


Not nearly to the extent they've been restricted since Gazans elected Hamas. Keep in mind that not just Israel feels that way -- Egypt does as well. Hamas is trouble.
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Hamas is trouble in the same way the state of Israel is trouble or the PA are trouble. None of them come out clean. Egypt has it's own problem with Islamic groups in poor regions and is a collaborator so their stance is expected


LOL -- I know plenty about both, and your broad generalizations do not begin to touch the subject.
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You don't know the difference between Haifa and Rafah for a start

https://nypost.com/2015/05/02/un-report-outlines-how-hamas-used-kids-as-human-shields/
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The IDF uses Palestinians as human shields and had an official policy of doing so.

You sure seem to be defending them at every turn. They fire rockets or send fire kites or shoot Israelis, and you never condemn them -- you only condemn Israel's response. You don't seem to understand that if Hamas didn't start trouble, there would be no response, hence, the blood of the dead Gazans is on Hamas' hands.
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Just applying the same standards to all parties is NOT support for Hamas. Would you support Hamas assassinations of Israeli government members or government workers because they were voted in by Israelis ?

If you call my opinion "superficial" I have a good idea that you're getting your information from such dubious sources as Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. Hmmm?
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Desperate but not surprising
 
oneworld2 said:
I didn't think there was such an actual thing as a pipe rocket. Every day is a school day

For the amount of victims these rockets have claimed , even before the Iron Dome system , the claims by some that they are sophisticated and or deadly doesn't stack up imo
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Pipe rockets have been kid hobbies for generations. The ancient Chinese used them for fireworks.

It isn't the amount of victims that matters. One victim injured is too many.

Tell me how these rockets used by Hamas and Hezbollah are not sophisticated, just little unsophisticated pipe rockets:

https://www.google.com/search?q=roc...hevcAhXqx4MKHfzJD_UQ_AUICygC&biw=1918&bih=960

Do tell why both organizations between them need more than 400k of them?

Keep in mind, not one muslim nation has ever had an open door policy for any of the refugees. And there has been a two state solution since the acceptance of the UN Partition Agreement. Israel and Jordan.
 
The thesis of this thread is flawed as a "full-blown war" requires at least two able participants to fight each other with at least some measure of parity. Gaza is unable to wage anything except a military/terrorist harassment campaign or a very short defensive urban-guerrilla war against Israel, which can only injure or kill very few Israelis and do very limited damage to Israel proper. Israel on the other hand can bomb, bombard, invade, overrun and then systematically destroy all of Gaza inflicting very large numbers of deaths and other casualties on Gazan Palestinians. This coupled with an comprehensive attack on Gazan infrastructure and an Israeli de-housing policy in the Strip could quickly leave most of Gaza completely unliveable, spurring a Palestinian exodus and second diaspora. So the topic of this thread should read something like, "Is Israel Moving Towards Full-Blow War with Gaza?". Israel alone has the capacity to wage full-blown war against Gaza, not the other way around.

War and military action/terrorism are not winning strategies for the Palestinians to achieve nationhood and political sovreignity from the Israel state. War will most likely trigger more destruction and death among Palestinians and probably lead to more brutal and humiliating military occupation. However terrorism and reprisal wars are excellent tools by which the leaders of the Israeli state can make life so difficult in Gaza and the West Bank that the local Palestinians might be "encouraged" to leave in order to escape such draconian treatment. That provides the Israeli state leadership with the possibility of clearing more of the Levant of indigenous Arab Palestinians in order to allow the expansion of a greater and greater ethnicly focused Israel. As more Palestinians depart leaving only the desperate who can't go and the wilfully determined who refuse to go left to resist Israeli occupation then the tempo and intensity of the terrorism-military reprisal cycle will quicken and strengthen until a consensus first in Israel and then in the West for a complete removal of the Palestinians from their traditional lands is achieved. At that point it will be all but a fait accomplis and the world will watch on but do nothing as another ethnic cleansing has unfolded before their eyes. This is the long-term objective of the "Snails War" of defacto removal/voluntarary emigration which I believe is being waged by the Israeli State against the Palestinians around Israel proper.

The way to avoid this is to stop the violent terrorism and to use non-violent means to hack the Israeli society, economy and politics as well as world opinion. This would force Israel to become the unilateral user of violence in the Occupied Territories and the Gaza Strip. The documentation and broadcasting of that unilateral use of force by independent media would quickly damage Israel's already bad reputation internationally and would trigger a global movement to boycott, divest and sanction Israel, hurting its bottom line more with each unilateral use of force. Palestinians should endeavour to paralyse Israel non-violently by non-lethal cyber warfare, international lawfare, and a long-term and unrelenting public relations campaign to hamstring the Israeli state and economy. The Palestinian diaspora and pro-Palestinian supporters should provide the hardware and software to make such an electronic intifada sustainable in the long run. Sympathetic media and investigative news organizations should investigate the hell out of Israeli elites and expose all the skeletons in their closets. The part of the world's population which is willing should be crowd-sourced to monitor and document every act the Israeli security and military services do in conjunction with Israelis who oppose Israel's over-reliance on the use of violence to achieve its state goals and realise state policies.

This electronic intifada could then become the template for the 'peoples' wars' against abusive states and elites all over the world from South and Central America and the Philippines to Russia, Turkey, China and the Asian Steppes.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
oneworld2 said:
I didn't think there was such an actual thing as a pipe rocket. Every day is a school day

For the amount of victims these rockets have claimed , even before the Iron Dome system , the claims by some that they are sophisticated and or deadly doesn't stack up imo
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Intentional ignorance writ large.

That and you again try to minimize the effect of these weapons.

The new buzz word... "sophisticated".
 
oneworld2 said:
You suggested that I claimed that the rockets from Gaza are harmless when what I actually claimed was that the vast majority of them are unsophisticated/not military standard ( as per the other poster here inferred )

That's a different thing and can be discussed as a separate argument to questions of justifications

You know this but keep to trying to ignore the context
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New goal post.

Moving goalposts is a sign you have lost the point.

No one said they were "sophisticated"... That is YOUR man of straw...

How "sophisticated" is a rifle round?

How "sophisticated" is a 500lb. bomb?

How "sophisticated" does a mortar have to be?

How "sophisticated" were the IED that ripped vehicles asunder in Iraq and killed and maimed so many?

Every time you play the "home made", "unsophisticated/not military standard" or "pipe rocket" game you are implying the weapons are essentially harmless.

You know it. I know it. Anyone reading this thread knows it.

To give you an idea...

1 - Anti Personnel Fragmentation Grenade M67 = 6.5 oz (180 g) of composition B + outer shell.

1 - Qassam III Rocket = 20 kilograms (20,000 g) of explosives + metal bearings.

These aren't effing fireworks.

But you intend to ignore the facts.
 
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