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Would you like to see the Palestinians have better weapons to use against Israel?

Would you like to see the Palestinians have better weapons to use against Israel?

  • Total voters
    28
CJ 2.0 said:
of course they didn't. But like I said all you need to do is change the venue or the style of question and you can get a radically different answer. We used to see it more explicitly during the Palestinians suicide bomb war and rocket war, where the argument was always "this is the best they can do given what they have. If they had better weapons they wouldn't need to resort to suicide bombs or crude rockets. Meanwhile, no matter what the Israeli security concern, folks line up against Israeli efforts to prevent Israelis from getting killed (see, eg, the blockade, the wall, targeted killings of terrorists).
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I see people lining up on both sides of this, and I think they are all mistaken, because, as I've said over and over again, the moment you pick a side, that side will make a fool of you by committing some atrocity or another, which then you'll be left having to defend...and I'm sorry, but "because the other side started it" is not enough of a defense of killing innocent collaterals for me to buy it from either side.

Clearly what is taking place in Israel isn't working, and people are dying as a result. Folks need to stop excusing their "side", and tell the whole area to simmer the **** down.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
You won't have to wait very long.

The Palestinians could have had freedom and independence 20 years ago, but instead chose to support their leadership in their suicide bomb war against Israel's civilian population. Killing Jews in the hope of "liberating historic Palestine" was more important to them than all these things.

As for the rest:

- The Palestinian territories have the law applied to them which existed at the time they were left by Egypt and Jordan, which is a combination of Jordanian, British and Ottoman law. Israel could annex the territory to extend Israeli law over it, but I have a feeling you wouldn't like that either.

- Palestinian water usage is poor because they do a bad job at investing in their infrastructure and the Israelis invest tons. Gaza has crappy water because the Palestinians don't manage their water resources and used pipes for rockets instead of sewer systems and destroyed efficient greenhouses cause Jews were in them previously. Israel has invested billions in water desalination and developing conservation techniques to allow for all different sorts of more efficient water use. The Palestinians didn't, and are not entitled to share in those benefits, particularly given the aforementioned suicide bomb war against Israeli civilians.
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What was offered 20 years ago was a long way from freedom and independence.

The Palestinians didn't because Israel didn't allow construction materials into Gaza and Israel controls how money is spent in Palestine. I suppose the Gazans could have built a seaport and shipped in the equipment to build a water desalination plant... oh, wait, they did try to build a seaport, but Israel destroyed it. Ho hum.
 
OlNate said:
I see people lining up on both sides of this, and I think they are all mistaken, because, as I've said over and over again, the moment you pick a side, that side will make a fool of you by committing some atrocity or another, which then you'll be left having to defend...and I'm sorry, but "because the other side started it" is not enough of a defense of killing innocent collaterals for me to buy it from either side.

Clearly what is taking place in Israel isn't working, and people are dying as a result. Folks need to stop excusing their "side", and tell the whole area to simmer the **** down.
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Isn't working for who?

Israel successfully prevented a mass infiltration which would have resulted in a massacre of entire Israeli communities (which was Hamas' plan).

While it would be great if we could just get to peace in our time, the Palestinians don't want it and have never wanted it. That's not their goal or their national purpose. You may not like it and you may not understand it since you would have very different goals, but it's the reality of it.

So all considered, from the perspective of maintaining Jewish self determination and protecting Jewish lives, there doesn't seem to be much of an alternative here. Remember Oslo led to the largest increase in Israeli civilian casualties in history. Israel took a massive risk for peace with a profoundly dishonest Palestinian side, who used the process for their advantage but never had any intention to end the conflict.

Part of actually fixing things is to be honest about why they are broken. Willpower and wishful thinking will not get an airplane off the ground when the engines are broken, and "not taking sides" while effectively pushing Palestinian propaganda will not actually help either side.

Israel would make peace if it had a partner on the other side who was interested in peace. it clearly and obviously doesn't.
 
Aristaeus said:
What was offered 20 years ago was a long way from freedom and independence.

The Palestinians didn't because Israel didn't allow construction materials into Gaza and Israel controls how money is spent in Palestine. I suppose the Gazans could have built a seaport and shipped in the equipment to build a water desalination plant... oh, wait, they did try to build a seaport, but Israel destroyed it. Ho hum.
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lol. yeah, wonder why it was destroyed. Arguing the anti-Israel side in a vacuum must be difficult. Hard for someone to hold his breath for so many decades.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
Isn't working for who?

Israel successfully prevented a mass infiltration which would have resulted in a massacre of entire Israeli communities (which was Hamas' plan).

While it would be great if we could just get to peace in our time, the Palestinians don't want it and have never wanted it. That's not their goal or their national purpose. You may not like it and you may not understand it since you would have very different goals, but it's the reality of it.

So all considered, from the perspective of maintaining Jewish self determination and protecting Jewish lives, there doesn't seem to be much of an alternative here. Remember Oslo led to the largest increase in Israeli civilian casualties in history. Israel took a massive risk for peace with a profoundly dishonest Palestinian side, who used the process for their advantage but never had any intention to end the conflict.

Part of actually fixing things is to be honest about why they are broken. Willpower and wishful thinking will not get an airplane off the ground when the engines are broken, and "not taking sides" while effectively pushing Palestinian propaganda will not actually help either side.

Israel would make peace if it had a partner on the other side who was interested in peace. it clearly and obviously doesn't.
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Or, maybe Israel was a failed UN experiment, demonstrating the most severe consequences of the aloofness of colonialism, by throwing together two groups of people who don't get along, and giving one side absolute control, and then washing their hands of it.

The charge of Palestinian propaganda is also very thin, since everyone over there has camera phones, and real footage can speak a lot louder than propaganda will. I totally acknowledge that there is Palestinian propaganda, as much as their is Israeli propaganda, but I look for non biased (if they exist...hehe...let's just say as unbiased as possible), statistical sources in order to try to understand the situation.

X-Factor, if you're watching, this is why I tend to be more critical *in this forum* towards Israel. This is the kind of willful denial I'm talking about, in regards to shared accountability. Israel is only ever protecting herself, and Palestine is always the aggressor...despite the fact that far more Palestinians have died in this conflict.

CJ, I appreciate the tone, despite disagreeing with you on your attempt to paint a binary picture. Things tend to get very rabid on this subject very quickly, so I respect how you've said what you've said, to me at least.

But I cannot believe that "Palestinians", in general, don't want peace, that makes no sense. And when I say "not working", I mean for the Palestinians, who were uprooted in order to give Israel to the Jewish people, and are dying as a result, I mean for the Israeli's, who are also dying as a result, and for the rest of the world, in varying degrees, who has to foot so much of the bill for this never ending nightmare. Their approach has been a complete failure, because the conflict continues. And continues. And continues.
 
OrphanSlug said:
I'd rather see an end to loss of life over all this, but that is dreaming... there is no interest for peace so they might as well obtain the weapons they want and be done with it.
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The Arabs and Iranians want Israel destroyed. The Israelis do not want to be destroyed. The latter want peace while the former do not. This is clear, simple and easy to understand - why do so many pretend to find it difficult?
 
Aristaeus said:
Hamas can build bombs from food and medicines?? I didn't know that!
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There are no barriers whatsoever to food and medicines entering Gaza or any other 'Palestinian' territory.
 
OlNate said:
Or, maybe Israel was a failed UN experiment, demonstrating the most severe consequences of the aloofness of colonialism, by throwing together two groups of people who don't get along, and giving one side absolute control, and then washing their hands of it.
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lol. Sure it was. Cause absent Israel "Palestine" would be as amazing and awesome as ... Syria ... or ... Egypt?

It is not colonialism that's what countries like Iran and Turkey do. That's what European meddling in Israel's internal affairs is. Israel is populated primarily by Jews from Arab and African countries. It is the culmination of thousands of years of Jewish history. And it is profoundly and completely just that it exists and the Jews there are allowed to apply their own willpower to maintain its success.

But of course this goes back to those who like to pretend they are "unbiased" yet conveniently just below the surface they think Israel shouldn't be allowed to exist and that everything is the Jews' fault.

Funny how that works, eh?

, who were The charge of Palestinian propaganda is also very thin, since everyone over there has camera phones, and real footage can speak a lot louder than propaganda will. I totally acknowledge that there is Palestinian propaganda, as much as their is Israeli propaganda, but I look for non biased (if they exist...hehe...let's just say as unbiased as possible), statistical sources in order to try to understand the situation.
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lol. Lots of cameras. In a territory controlled by Hamas. Where the "journalists" are of such supreme caliber that they seem to take reams of perfectly framed propaganda shots worthy of pravda (even commentators who don't buy the Palestinian propaganda have their articles infused by the glamour shots developed by the AP et al - see for example Terry Glavin: Even rational folks lose their minds when Israel comes up. Hamas counts on it | National Post). And when a shot shows a bit too much, it just gets cropped so that the "independent journalists" show you what they want to show you and no more.

X-Factor, if you're watching, this is why I tend to be more critical *in this forum* towards Israel. This is the kind of willful denial I'm talking about, in regards to shared accountability. Israel is only ever protecting herself, and Palestine is always the aggressor...despite the fact that far more Palestinians have died in this conflict.
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right. others are the ones in "willful denial". do you actually believe that?

CJ, I appreciate the tone, despite disagreeing with you on your attempt to paint a binary picture. Things tend to get very rabid on this subject very quickly, so I respect how you've said what you've said, to me at least.

But I cannot believe that "Palestinians", in general, don't want peace, that makes no sense. And when I say "not working", I mean for the Palestinians, who were uprooted in order to give Israel to the Jewish people, and are dying as a result, I mean for the Israeli's, who are also dying as a result, and for the rest of the world, in varying degrees, who has to foot so much of the bill for this never ending nightmare. Their approach has been a complete failure, because the conflict continues. And continues. And continues.
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I know you "can't" believe it. That's part of tjhe problem. We in the west just don't understand this. It has been generations upon generations of the Palestinians teaching their kids that they don't come from Ramallah or Gaza but from Haifa. generations of teaching them that they should die to liberate historic Palestine from the filthy Jews. Generations of glorifying terrorists and terrorism, suicide bombings and stabbing Israeli children. And generations of refusing to teach that any sort of compromise that ends the conflict while maintaining Israel as a Jewish state is acceptable.

So I understand what you want to be true. I think we all want it on the pro-Israel side at least. But we've tried that wishful thinking reality-denial approach before. It brought Oslo and the worst mass onslaught against Israeli civilians in history. Because it was a lie. And it is a lie now.

recommend you read Tuvia Tennenbaum. Wrote a book called Catch the Jew. Pretends at various times to be Israeli, German and American and speaks to pretty much everybody involved in the conflict. Has a lot of choice words about the various groups of Jews there too and he really likes the Palestinians, even while he acknowledges what they are really after. But will give you an understanding of the conflict that you won't get from the international media. And it's a lot of fun to read too, he is an excellent writer and book is very entertaining.
 
Sweden said:
There are no barriers whatsoever to food and medicines entering Gaza or any other 'Palestinian' territory.
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Other than Hamas rejecting medicine when they feel like it. Or when the Palestinians burn down the border points.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
lol. Sure it was. Cause absent Israel "Palestine" would be as amazing and awesome as ... Syria ... or ... Egypt?

It is not colonialism that's what countries like Iran and Turkey do. That's what European meddling in Israel's internal affairs is. Israel is populated primarily by Jews from Arab and African countries. It is the culmination of thousands of years of Jewish history. And it is profoundly and completely just that it exists and the Jews there are allowed to apply their own willpower to maintain its success.

But of course this goes back to those who like to pretend they are "unbiased" yet conveniently just below the surface they think Israel shouldn't be allowed to exist and that everything is the Jews' fault.

Funny how that works, eh?



lol. Lots of cameras. In a territory controlled by Hamas. Where the "journalists" are of such supreme caliber that they seem to take reams of perfectly framed propaganda shots worthy of pravda (even commentators who don't buy the Palestinian propaganda have their articles infused by the glamour shots developed by the AP et al - see for example Terry Glavin: Even rational folks lose their minds when Israel comes up. Hamas counts on it | National Post). And when a shot shows a bit too much, it just gets cropped so that the "independent journalists" show you what they want to show you and no more.



right. others are the ones in "willful denial". do you actually believe that?



I know you "can't" believe it. That's part of tjhe problem. We in the west just don't understand this. It has been generations upon generations of the Palestinians teaching their kids that they don't come from Ramallah or Gaza but from Haifa. generations of teaching them that they should die to liberate historic Palestine from the filthy Jews. Generations of glorifying terrorists and terrorism, suicide bombings and stabbing Israeli children. And generations of refusing to teach that any sort of compromise that ends the conflict while maintaining Israel as a Jewish state is acceptable.

So I understand what you want to be true. I think we all want it on the pro-Israel side at least. But we've tried that wishful thinking reality-denial approach before. It brought Oslo and the worst mass onslaught against Israeli civilians in history. Because it was a lie. And it is a lie now.

recommend you read Tuvia Tennenbaum. Wrote a book called Catch the Jew. Pretends at various times to be Israeli, German and American and speaks to pretty much everybody involved in the conflict. Has a lot of choice words about the various groups of Jews there too and he really likes the Palestinians, even while he acknowledges what they are really after. But will give you an understanding of the conflict that you won't get from the international media. And it's a lot of fun to read too, he is an excellent writer and book is very entertaining.
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Ok... Well, I think this is the part where we admit we have totally different understandings of what is going on, which, as you point out, is likely due to the fact that as Westerners, we don't truly understand the scope of the issue, which is another reason why I refuse to pick a side, and wonder how you can.

I hope for peace in the ME someday, and continue to feel great sympathy for victims of this senseless and complicated conflict on both sides. I dunno, maybe we can agree on that, if not the ratio of accountability?
 
OlNate said:
Ok... Well, I think this is the part where we admit we have totally different understandings of what is going on, which, as you point out, is likely due to the fact that as Westerners, we don't truly understand the scope of the issue, which is another reason why I refuse to pick a side, and wonder how you can.

I hope for peace in the ME someday, and continue to feel great sympathy for victims of this senseless and complicated conflict on both sides. I dunno, maybe we can agree on that, if not the ratio of accountability?
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Sure. I do again recommend that book. It's a good one from both an entertainment and education POV.
 
OlNate said:
The exact moment when they take responsibility for their part in all of this.

Don't confuse the likes for picking a side, I absolutely refuse to, because you can't. What I'm "liking" about these comments is that they are generally correcting someone regurgitating Israeli propaganda talking points, not because I'm like "**** Israel!!"... Not at all, man.

This is a weird topic for me, X, because I'm so frustrated with the situation (I'm 40 years old, and this conflict was old when I was born, and I've never known life without hearing about it), and I find myself fighting bitterly with hard liners on all sides of this, except for the folks who refuse to pick a side at all, which, after so many years, and so many dead, feels like the more appropriate approach.

Another reason why it may appear that I am one sided is that I don't feel the need to debate or prove the fact that terrorism is bad. It goes without saying. But if you need me to say "**** each and every last terrorist in the world", well, **** each and every last terrorist in the world. Now let's talk about the behaviors of the Israeli government, until atrocities committed by governments are as unacceptable as those committed by terrorists. That line get a little blurry in the middle east, man, you've got to admit that, surely.
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If you truly didn’t have a “side”, Nate, that would be apparent. You’d find things to disagree with on the anti Israel side and you don’t and you’d tell anti Israel folks how wrong it is for them to take a side, but the only opinions you disagree with come from Israel supporters.
 
OlNate said:
Or, maybe Israel was a failed UN experiment, demonstrating the most severe consequences of the aloofness of colonialism, by throwing together two groups of people who don't get along, and giving one side absolute control, and then washing their hands of it.

The charge of Palestinian propaganda is also very thin, since everyone over there has camera phones, and real footage can speak a lot louder than propaganda will. I totally acknowledge that there is Palestinian propaganda, as much as their is Israeli propaganda, but I look for non biased (if they exist...hehe...let's just say as unbiased as possible), statistical sources in order to try to understand the situation.

X-Factor, if you're watching, this is why I tend to be more critical *in this forum* towards Israel. This is the kind of willful denial I'm talking about, in regards to shared accountability. Israel is only ever protecting herself, and Palestine is always the aggressor...despite the fact that far more Palestinians have died in this conflict.

CJ, I appreciate the tone, despite disagreeing with you on your attempt to paint a binary picture. Things tend to get very rabid on this subject very quickly, so I respect how you've said what you've said, to me at least.

But I cannot believe that "Palestinians", in general, don't want peace, that makes no sense. And when I say "not working", I mean for the Palestinians, who were uprooted in order to give Israel to the Jewish people, and are dying as a result, I mean for the Israeli's, who are also dying as a result, and for the rest of the world, in varying degrees, who has to foot so much of the bill for this never ending nightmare. Their approach has been a complete failure, because the conflict continues. And continues. And continues.
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You cannot call Israel a “failed experiment” and claim you have no side here. If you ever get to a point that you don’t resent Israel’s existence, let me know, but right now the side you’re on is obvious.
 
X Factor said:
If you truly didn’t have a “side”, Nate, that would be apparent. You’d find things to disagree with on the anti Israel side and you don’t and you’d tell anti Israel folks how wrong it is for them to take a side, but the only opinions you disagree with come from Israel supporters.
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X Factor said:
You cannot call Israel a “failed experiment” and claim you have no side here. If you ever get to a point that you don’t resent Israel’s existence, let me know, but right now the side you’re on is obvious.
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You're assigning stuff to me that I don't believe, X. I'm being fairly candid with you on this, I ask that you take what I'm saying at face value, and stop telling me what I believe. I promise, I'll do the same for you.

Let me ask: Does criticizing Israel at all constitute "picking a side"? Is the discussion so polarized that one cannot find fault with both parties, without both parties alleging that one has picked the other side? hehe...

Also, it is important to put the criticism into context. In the same way I can have great American friends, and love the spirit and tenacity of the American people in general, while still pointing out the obvious reality that your current government is ****ed, I can also separate the Israeli people from their government, and criticize one while not being against the other. That's still a thing, right?

And yes, I can call Israel a failed experiment, and not pick a side, for the failure of that experiment rests evenly on the Jewish and Muslim residents - - not to mention the UN for such a doomed execution in the first place.
 
OlNate said:
~ But I cannot believe that "Palestinians", in general, don't want peace, that makes no sense. And when I say "not working", I mean for the Palestinians, who were uprooted in order to give Israel to the Jewish people, and are dying as a result, I mean for the Israeli's, who are also dying as a result, and for the rest of the world, in varying degrees, who has to foot so much of the bill for this never ending nightmare. Their approach has been a complete failure, because the conflict continues. And continues. And continues.
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Read your comments and can see where you are coming from, with the benefit of doubt.

Now, I strongly suggest you do a bit of background research on the origins of the Jewish state and all the events around it. It makes no sense the Palestinians don't want peace but then you have either read the offers of peace and peaceful coexistence made by Jewish Council leaders in the early 20th Century as modern Israel came towards existence or you have not read them.
When you mention the Palestinians were uprooted you have to either read about whether they were forced out by the Jews or told to leave by Arab leaders or whether they were warned to leave before Arab air forces were supposed to bomb Haifa or other cities and towns where they lived.
When you say Israel was given to the Jewish people - you've either read (as said above) offers of peaceful coexistence or you haven't. You've either read Jamal Husseini's report (as Chairman of the Palestine Higher Committee) in April 1948 about Palestinian exodus despite a truce offer.
Later in 1948, it was the Higher Arab Executive that urged Palestinians to flee - they were not chased out by the Jewish forces who were often ordered not to touch the possessions of those who had left.

Your last comment - that the Israeli approach "has been a complete failure" puts all blame on Israel. Knowingly or unknowingly, you fail to see what role Palestinian refugees have played for various arab leaders and how the plight of ordinary Palestinians has been controlled from outside and usually by other arab leaders.

At the moment, I really think you haven't come across that background - but try and read up, you may then understand why the Palestinians have repeatedly refused offers of their own state going right back to Balfour's initial proposals to the modern period. For them and more importantly, their leadership - the goal of peace and their own state is subservient to simply wiping Israel off the map.


X Factor said:
~ The reality I believe that’s at work here is that people who don’t think Israel should be here, at all, believe Israel should just be content with grudgingly tolerating that they do exist.
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Very true. Couldn't "like" this post because it almost felt like like I'd be thanking the argument I completely disagree with that you were trying to make for those who wouldn't say it. Hope that makes sense
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Read your comments and can see where you are coming from, with the benefit of doubt.

Now, I strongly suggest you do a bit of background research on the origins of the Jewish state and all the events around it. It makes no sense the Palestinians don't want peace but then you have either read the offers of peace and peaceful coexistence made by Jewish Council leaders in the early 20th Century as modern Israel came towards existence or you have not read them.
When you mention the Palestinians were uprooted you have to either read about whether they were forced out by the Jews or told to leave by Arab leaders or whether they were warned to leave before Arab air forces were supposed to bomb Haifa or other cities and towns where they lived.
When you say Israel was given to the Jewish people - you've either read (as said above) offers of peaceful coexistence or you haven't. You've either read Jamal Husseini's report (as Chairman of the Palestine Higher Committee) in April 1948 about Palestinian exodus despite a truce offer.
Later in 1948, it was the Higher Arab Executive that urged Palestinians to flee - they were not chased out by the Jewish forces who were often ordered not to touch the possessions of those who had left.

Your last comment - that the Israeli approach "has been a complete failure" puts all blame on Israel. Knowingly or unknowingly, you fail to see what role Palestinian refugees have played for various arab leaders and how the plight of ordinary Palestinians has been controlled from outside and usually by other arab leaders.

At the moment, I really think you haven't come across that background - but try and read up, you may then understand why the Palestinians have repeatedly refused offers of their own state going right back to Balfour's initial proposals to the modern period. For them and more importantly, their leadership - the goal of peace and their own state is subservient to simply wiping Israel off the map.




Very true. Couldn't "like" this post because it almost felt like like I'd be thanking the argument I completely disagree with that you were trying to make for those who wouldn't say it. Hope that makes sense
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Hi, IC.

First of all, I always appreciate the benefit of the doubt, so thanks. :) This is a touchy subject, and one where I think giving the benefit of the doubt is utterly crucial to keep the folks in the discussion from ripping each other's heads off...hehe...

Just a couple things:

First, please note in post #39, where I said:

"And yes, I can call Israel a failed experiment, and not pick a side, for the failure of that experiment rests evenly on the Jewish and Muslim residents - - not to mention the UN for such a doomed execution in the first place."
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Secondly, I am familiar with a lot of what you are talking about...but at the same time there is another side to the story. I've read that too. And all I see is two peoples who have given up on being civil to one another. That's how it looks to me. And we all get dragged into it every time.

I wish there was a way to tally up who is "most to blame". That would simplify things significantly. But in lieu of that, all we can honestly say, if we wish to not have to take anything back when evidence to the contrary is presented, is that no one is innocent in this. If that's the case, then while we could go back and forth all day with "ya, but, what about the time...", it's probably more accurate and efficient to say that both sides are to blame...and again, the initial execution by the UN was horrible. Jerusalem should have been kept as an international city run by the UN for sure, and there should have been a UN presence in governing the country for at least the first 20-30 years, in order to ease the transition and prevent the crisis. Of course, hindsight is always 20/20.

And, of course, you realize that if I was talking to a hardcore anti-Israeli type, this conversation would look very different. X and I tend to go back and forth a bit on the Israel issue, this is actually a pretty civil debate for us... :lol: I don't disagree with anything you guys say, unless if you're trying to tell me someone is "more to blame" than the other. The body count statistics makes it impossible for me to see it that way, when that body count includes children on both sides of the conflict.
 
OlNate said:
Hi, IC.

First of all, I always appreciate the benefit of the doubt, so thanks. :) This is a touchy subject, and one where I think giving the benefit of the doubt is utterly crucial to keep the folks in the discussion from ripping each other's heads off...hehe...

Just a couple things:

First, please note in post #39, where I said:



Secondly, I am familiar with a lot of what you are talking about...but at the same time there is another side to the story. I've read that too. And all I see is two peoples who have given up on being civil to one another. That's how it looks to me. And we all get dragged into it every time.

I wish there was a way to tally up who is "most to blame". That would simplify things significantly. But in lieu of that, all we can honestly say, if we wish to not have to take anything back when evidence to the contrary is presented, is that no one is innocent in this. If that's the case, then while we could go back and forth all day with "ya, but, what about the time...", it's probably more accurate and efficient to say that both sides are to blame...and again, the initial execution by the UN was horrible. Jerusalem should have been kept as an international city run by the UN for sure, and there should have been a UN presence in governing the country for at least the first 20-30 years, in order to ease the transition and prevent the crisis. Of course, hindsight is always 20/20.

And, of course, you realize that if I was talking to a hardcore anti-Israeli type, this conversation would look very different. X and I tend to go back and forth a bit on the Israel issue, this is actually a pretty civil debate for us... :lol: I don't disagree with anything you guys say, unless if you're trying to tell me someone is "more to blame" than the other. The body count statistics makes it impossible for me to see it that way, when that body count includes children on both sides of the conflict.
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I think you’re trying to be fair, but as I said in another thread, sometimes I think that results in accommodating false equivalents. The IDF is not the same as Hamas. Israel is not the same as Hamas. Violent “protesters” trying to rush Israel’s border are not the same as terror victims. Frankly, in your attempt to be fair, you often disregard what’s actually right while letting what’s really wrong slide.
 
I voted yes

Maybe if the Israeli onslaughts were met with an equal measure of force themselves they might

A Desist from their regular episodes of shooting fish in a barrel

B Actually be scared enough themselves to give up the Greater Israel idea and agree to a two state solution with genuine autonomy for the Palestinians

From the Palestinian side.............

Access to better weapons would give them the opportunity to actually defend themselves from the regular attacks Israel visits on them


Having the ability to engage the IDF in any meaningful use of the term might help them desist from the indiscriminate firing of rockets which gives their detractors all the ammunition they need to dehumanize them as all as terrorists

I know this view won't be popular here and quite frankly I don't really care because the status quo of seeing a virtually defenceless population being put to the sword in their thousands every couple of years by a hi-tech military Goliath is just sickening to watch and sickening to see supported and cheered for by so many
 
oneworld2 said:
I voted yes

Maybe if the Israeli onslaughts were met with an equal measure of force themselves they might

A Desist from their regular episodes of shooting fish in a barrel

B Actually be scared enough themselves to give up the Greater Israel idea and agree to a two state solution with genuine autonomy for the Palestinians

From the Palestinian side.............

Access to better weapons would give them the opportunity to actually defend themselves from the regular attacks Israel visits on them


Having the ability to engage the IDF in any meaningful use of the term might help them desist from the indiscriminate firing of rockets which gives their detractors all the ammunition they need to dehumanize them as all as terrorists

I know this view won't be popular here and quite frankly I don't really care because the status quo of seeing a virtually defenceless population being put to the sword in their thousands every couple of years by a hi-tech military Goliath is just sickening to watch and sickening to see supported and cheered for by so many
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I’m pretty sure I predicted this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
CJ 2.0 said:
I’m pretty sure I predicted this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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And ?

I don't like to see a hi tech military showering densely populated areas within a virtually defenceless population with chemical weapons etc. Hardly an insane position

I don't like to see the indiscriminate use of rockets against territories with urban centres either. Again , hardly an insane position

Supporting the status quo is sure to see both happen with appalling regularity.................. that's the truly insane view
 
No. But then I am also against increased weaponizatiin across the board.
 
I would like to add that going forward I would like to see an arms embargo on both parties
 
Voted "Other".

I do not support sending Palestinian militants or even the general Palestinian population lethal weapons to further their cause violently. However not all "weapons" are lethal ones and not all battles are fought through the application of physical violence on the opposition. Therefore I support the notion that outside actors should consider "arming" the general Palestinian population with non-lethal weapons of mass persuasion and surveillance in order to pressure the Israeli state and their own Hamas or Fatah leaderships into negotiating in better faith with the intention of removing all the Israeli, the Hamas and the Fatah yokes from the over-burdened shoulders of the Palestinian people who have three states or would-be states standing on their necks and suffocating them right now.

Inundate Palestine with a great flood of cameras, mini-cameras which are easily concealable, non-armed commercial drones, powerful surveillance and counter-surveillance equipment for crowd-sourcing ntelligence gathering, powerful acoustic eavesdropping equipment, satellite up-links and satellite phones, mobile but powerful video processing and editing equipment, powerful lap-top computers and top-line software, the best encryption hardware and software that donor money can buy, portable solar-powered and wireless charging equipment, mobile and easily concealable wireless network hubs, pre-paid subscriptions to informational software and access to neutral foreign servers or satellites for broadcasting digital content both into and out of Palestinian and Israeli controlled territories, hand-held line-of-sight optical data transfer tools which cannot be easily jammed by Hamas, Fatah or Israel, off-shore ships with powerful broadcasting facilities located in international waters which are hosted by foreign states who can and will defend them if attacked either directly or indirectly by any state or non-state actors and educational tools to make the best and brightest Palestinians the technical and vocational equals of the best and brightest of Israel in cyber conflict and who can overcome their own militants too in the bargain.

Level the playing field in persuasion, culture jamming, hacking, surveillance, and the dissemination of information rather than in weapons, coercion, intimidation and the use of violence; in order to make both Palestine and Israel so transparent to their own people and to global scrutiny that no actor can safely use coercion, intimidation and violence without being caught in the act in real time and having that evidence broadcast beyond the control of all actors for the all to see, examine and if warranted to declaim.

Continued next post.
 
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