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What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?***[W:151]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

AtlantaAdonis said:
Thought we could take a break from discussing Israeli-Palestine issues to discuss discussions of Israeli-Palestinian issues.

There's one board I know of (not a primarily politics board) that has mostly left-of-center and highly educated people and I-P discussion gets really contentious and heated on a board where disagreements are usually handled maturely.

And of course, here you've got Martial Law.

So why do Americans get so emotionally invested, here?
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LMAO....

The Euro's own anti Semitism, while most non liberal Americans support Israel.

Most Americans (non liberal) consider the land of Israel to be theirs to begin with.
 
Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

The west bank was apart of Jordan and they signed a treaty granting the land to Israel. The gaza strip was a part of Egypt and they signed a treaty granting the land to Israel. The border with Lebanon has been adhered to by since the creation of Israel and isn't under dispute. The only disputed territory is the Golan heights with Syria. Which probably shouldn't be sorted out until that country becomes more stabilized. The west bank and gaza strip are areas where their is a very high percentage of muslims and they want to be free from Israel control and want their own country. Cant blame them for that. But Gaza and West bank are far apart and cant ruled by one government so we are talking about two independent countries. Gaza doesn't have the infrastructure to be on its own and I think should continue to be ruled by Israel. The West Bank however can be used to create a new nation for the Palestines.
 
Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

oneworld2 said:
So there you have it. Human Rights Watch people on the ground at the time alleging it and the Israeli Chief of Staff at the time admitting it.

You did understand those words from the Israeli Chief of Staff relaying the policy used in Lebanon in 2006 ? , to paraphrase them ..........." we will use disproportionate power[ military] to harm the population "

Pretty compelling stuff , no wonder you chose the ad hominem none answer post :roll:
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What "ad hominem" is in my post?

You are dishonestly moving goalposts.

You are ignorant of many weapons.

You "claim" keeps moving.

As to bringing the hard hand of war upon civilians?

The IDF has been (for the most part) amazingly careful in preventing collateral deaths.
 
Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Napoleon said:
Israel used them indescriminately in Gaza and Lebanon. It’s not a debate...it’s why the U.S. stopped selling them to Israel.
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You have a link to that as I've not seen reporting on it. I'm looking and only seeing that they used them in Lebanon in their little mini-war there.

My suggestion to you would be to read the plethora of human rights reports on the subject compiled by the State Department. It’s ludicrous to expect any modern fighting force to line up in a field somewhere like something out of the Napoleonic Wars. But the point is that if it’s wrong for Hamas to lob rockets into Israel then it is also wrong for Israel to show, at best, complete indifference for who they’re maiming or killing as long as bodies hit the floor.
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No, they don't have to line up across from each other like Napoleonic Wars, though that type of fighting was starting to fall a little out of fashion at that point as munitions were making advancements. I'm talking about not hiding behind and among civilians. They do it on purpose. They purposefully put civilians into harms way. They actually want civilian casualties because they know it will garner sympathy from the uninformed.
 
Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Another reason the I/P forum is so difficult to have a reasoned discussion on without descending into acrimonious bickering is posters' refusal to stay on topic which leads to regular thread derailment. Take this thread as an example. It has been a derailed train wreck since responses to post #17 have moved the topic of discussion from the title of this thread to the types of munitions used by Israel and legal/moral/ethical implications thereof. That has nothing to do with the I/P discussion challenges this thread is supposed to be about. This pointless tangent has sent the discussion down an off-topic rabbit hole since page three and does not address the theme of the thread at all. Posters here, including myself at times, seem unable to ignore such diversions and to resist the temptation to engage in derailment. So a lack of discipline in discussion, no doubt brought about by strong passions on all sides, is another reason why rational and civil discussions on this forum are so difficult to maintain.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
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What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Fishking said:
"cluster munitions"? I believe you're not using proper terminology because I don't see evidence of that happening. As to civilian areas being hit, yes, Hamas hides among the civilian populations, which in itself is a war crime. If they could kindly remove themselves from civilian populations and set up proper military camps and such, instead of putting weapons' caches in schools and mosques, the civilian death toll would drop dramatically.
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It’s funny how those who support organizations that use suicide bombers who wait to be in groups of civilians, fire rockets at civilian communities, send people into civilian towns to stab people and set up ambushes to attack civilian vehicles have decided that the Jews, among all other people, need to restrain themselves to forego the use of weapons all other armies use in order to avoid harming anyone.

It’s almost like they have some sort of agenda...


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Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Fledermaus said:
What "ad hominem" is in my post?

You are dishonestly moving goalposts.

You are ignorant of many weapons.

You "claim" keeps moving.

As to bringing the hard hand of war upon civilians?

The IDF has been (for the most part) amazingly careful in preventing collateral deaths.
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Way more than every other western nation, but we don’t use the same standard when Israel is involved. For some clearly non-anti-Semitic reason.


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Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Napoleon said:
Israel used them indescriminately in Gaza
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So we're now down to just making BS up?
 
Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Fledermaus said:
Better to use an HE round which would take out the target and everything within a wide radius.... Right?
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So having charged that these weapons are for localized damage we find out that the radius is 300m and you fail to address that point.

Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on the planet , so a 300m radius , in that context , could well be classed as an indiscriminate choice of weapon sure to maim and kill innocent people. As indeed the article confirmed it had
 
Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

jdog21 said:
The west bank was apart of Jordan and they signed a treaty granting the land to Israel.
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Wrong. They renounced their own claims of sovereignty and recognized Palestinian rights to it , if only nominally


The gaza strip was a part of Egypt and they signed a treaty granting the land to Israel.
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Wrong. The peace deal with Egypt never even mentioned the Palestinians or Gaza AFAIK

The border with Lebanon has been adhered to by since the creation of Israel and isn't under dispute.
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Except for periodic Israeli occupations


The only disputed territory is the Golan heights with Syria. Which probably shouldn't be sorted out until that country becomes more stabilized
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Israel acquired via warfare in breach of international law and thus the Golan remains Israeli occupied Syrian territory with nobody recognizing the Israeli attempt at annexing it


. The west bank and gaza strip are areas where their is a very high percentage of muslims and they want to be free from Israel control and want their own country. Cant blame them for that. But Gaza and West bank are far apart and cant ruled by one government so we are talking about two independent countries. Gaza doesn't have the infrastructure to be on its own and I think should continue to be ruled by Israel. The West Bank however can be used to create a new nation for the Palestines.
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Gaza and the West Bank are both Occupied Palestinian Territories and are thought of , even in the agreements reached between Israel and the Palestinians , none separable. That Israeli actions in trying to split them up in order to undermine/scupper any future viable Palestinian state doesn't change their actual status.

So no they don't have to be two different countries
 
Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Fledermaus said:
What "ad hominem" is in my post?

You are dishonestly moving goalposts.

You are ignorant of many weapons.

You "claim" keeps moving.

As to bringing the hard hand of war upon civilians?

The IDF has been (for the most part) amazingly careful in preventing collateral deaths.
Click to expand...

What didn't you understand about the Israeli Chief of Staff's admission that the policy was to use disproportionate power that was intended to harm the population ?

Is the " for the most part " some sort of acceptance of what I have shown ? lol
 
Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

oneworld2 said:
What didn't you understand about the Israeli Chief of Staff's admission that the policy was to use disproportionate power that was intended to harm the population ?

Is the " for the most part " some sort of acceptance of what I have shown ? lol
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The question was "what ad hominem?"
 
Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

CJ 2.0 said:
Americans?

The ones who are most vehemently anti-Israel are Europeans, who are fed a steady and consistent diet of single-narrative anti-Israel propaganda.


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I don't think the anti-Israel propaganda - which is real enough - has quite as much effect as you believe. Many Europeans, maybe most, are quite capable of seeing howling mobs, bent on killing Jews for what they are.
 
Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Sweden said:
I don't think the anti-Israel propaganda - which is real enough - has quite as much effect as you believe. Many Europeans, maybe most, are quite capable of seeing howling mobs, bent on killing Jews for what they are.
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I hope so. But when you look at the uniform media spin, the financial support the European states funnel through organizations to undermine Israeli democracy, the continuous stream of radicals who decide Israel is the random global conflict they are going to obsess over, and the flat out antisemitism that is just beneath the surface of European societies, and I’m not too sure.

Have you read “I slept in Hitler’s room” by Tuvia Tenenbaum? Great read about his travels through Germany but not particularly flattering.


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Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Fledermaus said:
The question was "what ad hominem?"
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Nope the questions are................

What didn't you understand about the Israeli Chief of Staff's admission that the policy was to use disproportionate power that was intended to harm the population ?

And

Is the " for the most part " some sort of acceptance of what I have shown ?
 
Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

CJ 2.0 said:
I hope so. But when you look at the uniform media spin, the financial support the European states funnel through organizations to undermine Israeli democracy, the continuous stream of radicals who decide Israel is the random global conflict they are going to obsess over, and the flat out antisemitism that is just beneath the surface of European societies, and I’m not too sure.

Have you read “I slept in Hitler’s room” by Tuvia Tenenbaum? Great read about his travels through Germany but not particularly flattering.


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It is indeed a disgrace that European taxpayers' money finds its was to Hamas via the EU.

I'll look out for Tenenbaum's book. Thanks for the tip.
 
Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

oneworld2 said:
Nope the questions are................

What didn't you understand about the Israeli Chief of Staff's admission that the policy was to use disproportionate power that was intended to harm the population ?

And

Is the " for the most part " some sort of acceptance of what I have shown ?
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You accused me of ad hominem.

The question that followed was "what ad hominem?"

And " for the most part " means exactly what it means.
 
Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Fledermaus said:
You accused me of ad hominem.

The question that followed was "what ad hominem?"
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Correct and you did resort to ad hominem along with the attempted straw man. Fact . I would put it all together for you but tbh you are not worth the time and effort. Read back and it is self evident....... clues ,

strawman= your introduction of the fact that cluster munitions were not prohibited in 2006

Ad hominems = accusations of wilful ignorance , dishonesty

Now are you going to answer the questions put to you first ?

And " for the most part " means exactly what it means.
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So the Israeli Chief of Staff admitting the use of power was disproportionate and intended to harm the population of Lebanon. War crime or what ?
 
Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

oneworld2 said:
Correct and you did resort to ad hominem along with the attempted straw man. Fact . I would put it all together for you but tbh you are not worth the time and effort. Read back and it is self evident....... clues ,

strawman= your introduction of the fact that cluster munitions were not prohibited in 2006

Ad hominems = accusations of wilful ignorance , dishonesty

Now are you going to answer the questions put to you first ?



So the Israeli Chief of Staff admitting the use of power was disproportionate and intended to harm the population of Lebanon. War crime or what ?
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Prattle on mover of goalposts.

Cluster munitions were not prohibited ergo no war crimes.

And your intentional ignorance on many subjects is clear to anyone who reads with an open mind.
 
Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Fledermaus said:
Prattle on mover of goalposts.

Cluster munitions were not prohibited ergo no war crimes.

And your intentional ignorance on many subjects is clear to anyone who reads with an open mind.
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The none prohibition of cluster munitions is just your straw man introduction

The crimes alleged are disproportionality , indiscriminacy and the targeting of the population

Your " open mind " just won't allow you to accept the compelling case for Israeli war crimes in Lebanon in 2006 even when the Israeli Chief of Staff is the star witness for them.

Epic fail on your behalf imo
 
Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

oneworld2 said:
The none prohibition of cluster munitions is just your straw man introduction

The crimes alleged are disproportionality , indiscriminacy and the targeting of the population

Your " open mind " just won't allow you to accept the compelling case for Israeli war crimes in Lebanon in 2006 even when the Israeli Chief of Staff is the star witness for them.

Epic fail on your behalf imo
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Cry more...

If the rockets did not come there would be no response..
 
Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Fledermaus said:
Cry more...

If the rockets did not come there would be no response..
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Dodge more.....

The incremental Israeli strangle hold on Gaza that has now lead to the complete blockade began in 1989-90 , that predates the rocket fire from Gaza.

The targeted killings /extrajudicial murders of Gazans/Palestinians go on month on month , year on year and predate rocket fire from Gaza

You will not factor any of this in because you refuse to process information ,or even post a decent reply to it, if it contradicts your preferred narrative.

It's clear that you only want one side to commit to a cessation of violence and also clear that you think that Arabs have no right to free themselves from a foreign occupation that denies them their basic human rights. That's not " open mindedness " , it's the opposite of it
 
Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

oneworld2 said:
Dodge more.....

The incremental Israeli strangle hold on Gaza that has now lead to the complete blockade began in 1989-90 , that predates the rocket fire from Gaza.
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You mean as a response to the First Intifada? Do you think the suicide bus attack that killed 16 Israelis in '89 might also have had something to do with Israel clamping down tighter on the terrorists?

The targeted killings /extrajudicial murders of Gazans/Palestinians go on month on month , year on year and predate rocket fire from Gaza
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Gazan terrorists use more than rockets to spread their violence. Israel responds to those attacks. As long as the terrorists are willing to send their children into the line of fire, those children will likely be killed. But, the blood is on the terrorists' hands.

It's clear that you only want one side to commit to a cessation of violence and also clear that you think that Arabs have no right to free themselves from a foreign occupation that denies them their basic human rights. That's not " open mindedness " , it's the opposite of it
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Arabs have tons of rights, and they own and occupy the vast majority of the Middle East after all.

This isn't about Arab rights -- this is about Gazan terrorists. Period.

For over a decade, Egypt (yep, Arabs) has been solely in control of the Rafah crossing. Not Israel. But, like Israel, Egypt does not care for Hamas, and so Egypt strongly regulates the crossing.

We're talking about Arabs regulating Gazans here -- Israel has nothing more to do with Rafah -- it hasn't for nearly 13 years. If Gazans wanted peace, they'd get rid of Hamas and Egypt has stated they would then open the crossing.

You're way off base here -- as you have been since the start of this discussion.

If Egypt (Arabs) sees the wisdom in not allowing Gazans to freely enter and exit Egypt, don't you think there just might be a good reason?

Think about it.
 
Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

oneworld2 said:
The none prohibition of cluster munitions is just your straw man introduction

The crimes alleged are disproportionality , indiscriminacy and the targeting of the population

Your " open mind " just won't allow you to accept the compelling case for Israeli war crimes in Lebanon in 2006 even when the Israeli Chief of Staff is the star witness for them.

Epic fail on your behalf imo
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OK, suicide attacks followed by rocket attacks...

Happy now?

The Gazans elected a terrorist organization to lead them.

A terror organization that has squandered resources to commit 20,000+ acts of war against a sovereign nation.

A terrorist organization that keeps attacking until there is a deadly response then waves the bloody shirt over the deaths.

A terrorist organization that cares little for their infrastructure in that they use schools, hospitals and mosques as launching points for there rocket attacks.

If I punch somebody twenty times I have no standing to cry when they respond by knocking a few teeth out.
 
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