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The American Mushroom Farm ?

oneworld2 said:
Anyone who has ever grown mushrooms will know that they thrive best when they are kept in the dark and fed a steady supply of manure.

The debate on this conflict in Israel is a whole universe away from the debate conducted in the US.

As something of a pariah here to the American " pro Israel " team I find it interesting that they never seem to notice that a large proportion of the links I give to support my assertions come not from Palestinians but from Israeli Jews.

The spectrum of analysis from the Israeli media is much much broader than it appears to be in the USA and I think that that presents us with a serious question in need of an answer.

Why is this the case ?

My own opinion is that the PR campaign aimed at the American audiences is considered much more crucial by the Israeli leaderships precisely because so long as they are onside , or enough of them are onside , with the actions and policies their continuance is guaranteed.

In short the Israeli war with the Palestinians would be quickly lost should American public opinion ever shift dramatically away from more or less total support. When I say lost , I don't mean that Israel would cease to be , I mean the fight to acquire Greater Israel would be lost

The US veto has protected Israel from an overwhelming international consensus calling for a two state solution based on the 1967 borders/green line for decades. A consensus that , for the vast majority of it's existence , has had two steadfast opponents , Israel and the US.

Bearing the above in mind is it any wonder that the debate in Israel about the conflict is much more vibrant and honest than it is in the US ?

Thoughts ?
Click to expand...

That the reportage and public debate in Israel is much more thorough and nuanced than in the USA is not that surprising. America is concerned with America and pays only limited media attention to the rest of the world, often only when it's interests or military are involved. My experience with family and friends in the USA is that they see America as the axis mundi of the modern world and so do not really focus in on the details and subtleties of international relations and crises unless America is in the mix.

There is also a measure of fatigue with respect to the plight of the Palestinians and this is magnified by a pervasive hostility to the Arab and more widely the Muslim world which has existed in the American perception of the orient for two centuries. Too many Americans overly depend on experts and media outlets to shape their understanding of what's going on in the Arab world and do not do their own research and reading in order to inform themselves. Thus Americans are easy marks to spoon-feed a narrative designed by PR and media conglomerates with clients and agendas in mind. This was also true in Britain until the 1980's but Britain came to terms with this as their Island Kingdom became a much more multicultural society including many more people who had personal experience of the wider world. This was also well illustrated in 1978 IIRC when Edward Said wrote his landmark book Orientalism and clearly demonstrated how both Britain and the USA had developed their societal understandings of the Arab world through the eyes of professional "orientalists" who imposed an artificial and received understanding of the Middle East and Asia which was far removed from the realities of the Arab street.

Hopefully as the number of Arab Americans increases and as the lessons learned by US civil servants, diplomats and especially military personnel serving abroad and returning with real-world experience of the ME, the ersatz narratives will be more often challenged and will be eventually dispelled.

There is little doubt that a great deal of money and influence is being spent by various interested parties in order to keep the wider American public as unconscious as possible about the true nature of Arab dictators', the Israeli military's and the US military's real impact on the Arab and wider Muslim world, but such influence and money has diminishing margins of returns and therefore cannot stand indefinitely juxtaposed to the real experiences and first-hand knowledge of more and more Americans. The tide will eventually turn.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
That the reportage and public debate in Israel is much more thorough and nuanced than in the USA is not that surprising. America is concerned with America and pays only limited media attention to the rest of the world, often only when it's interests or military are involved. My experience with family and friends in the USA is that they see America as the axis mundi of the modern world and so do not really focus in on the details and subtleties of international relations and crises unless America is in the mix.

There is also a measure of fatigue with respect to the plight of the Palestinians and this is magnified by a pervasive hostility to the Arab and more widely the Muslim world which has existed in the American perception of the orient for two centuries. Too many Americans overly depend on experts and media outlets to shape their understanding of what's going on in the Arab world and do not do their own research and reading in order to inform themselves. Thus Americans are easy marks to spoon-feed a narrative designed by PR and media conglomerates with clients and agendas in mind. This was also true in Britain until the 1980's but Britain came to terms with this as their Island Kingdom became a much more multicultural society including many more people who had personal experience of the wider world. This was also well illustrated in 1978 IIRC when Edward Said wrote his landmark book Orientalism and clearly demonstrated how both Britain and the USA had developed their societal understandings of the Arab world through the eyes of professional "orientalists" who imposed an artificial and received understanding of the Middle East and Asia which was far removed from the realities of the Arab street.

Hopefully as the number of Arab Americans increases and as the lessons learned by US civil servants, diplomats and especially military personnel serving abroad and returning with real-world experience of the ME, the ersatz narratives will be more often challenged and will be eventually dispelled.

There is little doubt that a great deal of money and influence is being spent by various interested parties in order to keep the wider American public as unconscious as possible about the true nature of Arab dictators', the Israeli military's and the US military's real impact on the Arab and wider Muslim world, but such influence and money has diminishing margins of returns and therefore cannot stand indefinitely juxtaposed to the real experiences and first-hand knowledge of more and more Americans. The tide will eventually turn.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Interesting and thought provoking as ever thx
 
oneworld2 said:
Anyone who has ever grown mushrooms will know that they thrive best when they are kept in the dark and fed a steady supply of manure.

The debate on this conflict in Israel is a whole universe away from the debate conducted in the US.

As something of a pariah here to the American " pro Israel " team I find it interesting that they never seem to notice that a large proportion of the links I give to support my assertions come not from Palestinians but from Israeli Jews.

The spectrum of analysis from the Israeli media is much much broader than it appears to be in the USA and I think that that presents us with a serious question in need of an answer.

Why is this the case ?

My own opinion is that the PR campaign aimed at the American audiences is considered much more crucial by the Israeli leaderships precisely because so long as they are onside , or enough of them are onside , with the actions and policies their continuance is guaranteed.

In short the Israeli war with the Palestinians would be quickly lost should American public opinion ever shift dramatically away from more or less total support. When I say lost , I don't mean that Israel would cease to be , I mean the fight to acquire Greater Israel would be lost

The US veto has protected Israel from an overwhelming international consensus calling for a two state solution based on the 1967 borders/green line for decades. A consensus that , for the vast majority of it's existence , has had two steadfast opponents , Israel and the US.

Bearing the above in mind is it any wonder that the debate in Israel about the conflict is much more vibrant and honest than it is in the US ?

Thoughts ?
Click to expand...

We do notice. There are a whole bunch of self-hating leftist Jews that are quick to hold Jews to the higher standard you want and happy enough to decide they know best and their propaganda is worth it given what they want Jews to be and how they think is the best way to get us there.

Again, Tuvia Tenenbaum is instructive, both his book on Israel and his book on the US.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
CJ 2.0 said:
We do notice. There are a whole bunch of self-hating leftist Jews that are quick to hold Jews to the higher standard you want and happy enough to decide they know best and their propaganda is worth it given what they want Jews to be and how they think is the best way to get us there.

Again, Tuvia Tenenbaum is instructive, both his book on Israel and his book on the US.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

:lol:

of course they have to be " self hating Jews " if they are critical of the repressive and brutal policies Israel prosecutes against the Palestinians since the charge of antisemite is not available

I take your a self loving Jew ?

Actually..................... lol
 
Last edited:
To the OP, take a long, close look at AIPAC.
 
late said:
To the OP, take a long, close look at AIPAC.
Click to expand...

Do you see anything racist in saying AIPAC is an influential lobby in the US ?
 
oneworld2 said:
Do you see anything racist in saying AIPAC is an influential lobby in the US?
Click to expand...

The word you were looking for is anti-Semitic.

The answer is no. When things go to hell in Israel (as they have so many times in the past), I'd like to bring all of them here. They would contribute mightily.

AIPAC has been playing dirty pool for a very long time. So much so that a liberal Jewish organisation was started to oppose them.

The good news here is that the two countries are slowly drifting apart.

The reason that's good news is that we have a genuinely weird relationship with Israel. Israel is a developed country. We don't give aid to any other developed country, the idea is absurd. Our relationship with Israel is causing problems for Israel. Right wing American money has dragged the country to the Right, a path that will eventually drag it into the regional war that is ripping the Middle east to shreds.

This will end badly.
 
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