• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Breaking in or breaking out ?

faithful_servant said:
They aren't doing either one. The Pals. have been offered citizenship and full rights as Israelis, but have refused to accept it. They are there VOLUNTARILY, no one is making them stay, they can leave at any time. The wall is only there because of TERRORIST attacks by Pals on Israel and Egypt (I'll bet that you didn't know that there's an Egyptian wall). The Pals. are only there as a political tool. If them having a homeland was so important, then all that has to happen is for Jordan and Syria to establish one. There have been Israelis in that region for just as long as there have been Pals. and their claims to that land is just as legitimate. Then you throw in the part where most of the Pals. left their beloved homeland and emigrated to NW Africa, where they got kicked out as undesirables due to their massive criminal efforts. Then headed for Egypt where the same thing happened (that's why Arafat was born in Egypt). It was only when Israel was re-established that they moved back in any significant numbers.
Click to expand...

We are talking about Gaza here , remember.

Apart from the Rafah crossing IIRC every other way in and out is controlled by Israel. To get out officially you have to have Israeli permission. A large proportion of the population have never been outside the prison gates.

The fence is there to protect Israelis from Palestinian indiscriminate/terrorist attacks , fair enough.

What's there to protect the Palestinians from Israeli state terrorist attacks/extrajudicial killings ?

So now we are supposed to believe that Palestinians are , somehow , genetically predisposed to commit crime ? lol Nothing to do with there none person/ un person status in many of the places they have landed in after being ousted from Palestine ?

I personally don't subscribe to the theory that most of the Arabs ousted from Palestine during the 47-49 conflict were recent arrivals. Some will have been but it's obvious that the majority of immigrants to Palestine in the years prior to partition were European Jews escaping discrimination in their own countries
 
Fledermaus said:
What dodge? Less bomb vests are used now because they have rockets. That is a fact.
Click to expand...

The context was out of how many Palestinians living in Gaza , how many were suicide bombers. You want to punish/support punishment of the whole population for the actions of something like 0.000001. No wonder you're on the opposite side to me. That's reassuring


The citation that does not say what you appear to want it to say?
Click to expand...

Didn't it ?

Here's what I wrote........

" The military once did a study of just how much foodstuffs they needed to allow in to avoid widespread malnutrition."

Here's what the article stated.......

" The Israeli military made precise calculations of Gaza’s daily calorie needs to avoid malnutrition during a sweeping blockade "

Wow so different , oh wait.......

To coin your own term read and weep
 
oneworld2 said:
The context was out of how many Palestinians living in Gaza , how many were suicide bombers. You want to punish/support punishment of the whole population for the actions of something like 0.000001. No wonder you're on the opposite side to me. That's reassuring
Click to expand...

Suicide bombers are a short career path. One success and you are done. Hard to rack up big numbers of people in the trade.

As I stated, rockets and mortars have pretty much taken the place of the suicide vests....

BTW -

In 2008 - 2,048 rockets, 1,668 mortars, 3,716 total... Then the blockade began.... 2009 - 569 rockets, 289 mortars, 858 total....

Looks like the blockade is saving lives.
 
oneworld2 said:
Nope , Israel should be forced into allowing them their rights. Self determination in their own state
Click to expand...

Why not Syria and Jordan? More of the Pal. homeland in those two nations than in Israel, so why not force them to surrender part of their land for a Pal. homeland.
 
Fledermaus said:
Suicide bombers are a short career path. One success and you are done. Hard to rack up big numbers of people in the trade.
Click to expand...

No dodging now

Out of 1.8-2 million Gazans what percentage do you think have carried out suicide bombings ?

In 2008 - 2,048 rockets, 1,668 mortars, 3,716 total... Then the blockade began.... 2009 - 569 rockets, 289 mortars, 858 total....

Looks like the blockade is saving lives.
Click to expand...

The blockade , or rather the tightening steeply of already existing restrictions imposed by Israel on Gazans , started in 2007 AFAIK so check your dates

Regardless.........

The period of time you talk about includes 3 Israeli attacks in Gaza , that tends to send up the rocket attack figures , unsurprisingly

The was the Beit Hanoun affair

There was Operation Summer Rains

There was Operation Cast Lead

A whole host of Israeli extrajudicial killings

If you want to look at the best results for stemming rocket fire from Gaza ( it's not just Hamas that do it ) look at the period just before Cast Lead were a 4 1/2 month ceasefire agreed with Hamas all but stopped them until Israel broke it and killed 5 IIRC Hamas members
 
faithful_servant said:
Why not Syria and Jordan? More of the Pal. homeland in those two nations than in Israel, so why not force them to surrender part of their land for a Pal. homeland.
Click to expand...

Maybe because they aren't currently breaking the law and occupying them.

TBH I think a future Palestinian state would benefit from a merger with Jordan.

Jordan , East Jerusalem , the WB and Gaza serving as a international trade route , sounds good
 
oneworld2 said:
No dodging now

Out of 1.8-2 million Gazans what percentage do you think have carried out suicide bombings ?

The blockade , or rather the tightening steeply of already existing restrictions imposed by Israel on Gazans , started in 2007 AFAIK so check your dates

Regardless.........

The period of time you talk about includes 3 Israeli attacks in Gaza , that tends to send up the rocket attack figures , unsurprisingly

The was the Beit Hanoun affair

There was Operation Summer Rains

There was Operation Cast Lead

A whole host of Israeli extrajudicial killings

If you want to look at the best results for stemming rocket fire from Gaza ( it's not just Hamas that do it ) look at the period just before Cast Lead were a 4 1/2 month ceasefire agreed with Hamas all but stopped them until Israel broke it and killed 5 IIRC Hamas members
Click to expand...

Beit Hanoun - IDF reaction to an attack

Israeli Government – Prime Minister Ehud Olmert expressed regret over the killings and offered humanitarian assistance to the wounded. In his address to the UN Security Council, Israel's deputy UN representative Daniel Carmon reiterated Israel's "deep sorrow and regret" over the accidental killing of innocent civilians, and told the council that terrorism by Hamas was to blame for "the incident in Beit Hanoun". "If Palestinian terror did not continue to assault Israelis, if Qassam rockets stopped sailing out of Gaza into Israel, the incident in Beit Hanoun would never have happened," Carmon said. "A single decision is needed: The Palestinian Authority government must decide to stop using terrorism as a means to achieving its goals."[11] At a business conference in Tel Aviv, Prime Minister Olmert said, "I am very uncomfortable with this event. I'm very distressed." Olmert called it a "mistake" caused by "technical failure," and he urged Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to meet with him immediately.[10] Israeli organizations, including Peace Now and Gush Shalom and political parties Meretz and Hadash held a protest in Tel Aviv shortly after news of the killings broke.[12] Israeli human rights group B'Tselem described the policy of returning fire to the general area from which a rocket attack is launched a "war crime."

Operation Summer Rains - IDF reaction to an attack

Operation "Summer Rains" (Hebrew: מבצע גשמי קיץ‎ Mivtza Gishmey Kayitz) refers to the series of battles between Palestinian militants and the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during summer 2006, prompted by Palestinian operations which resulted in the capture of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit.

Operation Cast Lead - IDF reaction to repeated rocket attacks

The conflict resulted in between 1,166 and 1,417 Palestinian and 13 Israeli deaths (4 from friendly fire).[58] According to the Shin Bet, after the conflict, there was a decrease in Palestinian rocket attacks.[59] In September 2009, a UN special mission, headed by the South African Justice Richard Goldstone, produced a report accusing both Palestinian militants and the IDF of war crimes and possible crimes against humanity, and recommended bringing those responsible to justice.[60] In January 2010, the Israeli government released a response criticizing the Goldstone Report and disputing its findings.[61] In 2011, Goldstone wrote that he no longer believed that Israel intentionally targeted civilians in Gaza.[62] The other authors of the report, Hina Jilani, Christine Chinkin, and Desmond Travers, rejected Goldstone's re-assessment
 
Fledermaus said:
Beit Hanoun - IDF reaction to an attack

Israeli Government – Prime Minister Ehud Olmert expressed regret over the killings and offered humanitarian assistance to the wounded. In his address to the UN Security Council, Israel's deputy UN representative Daniel Carmon reiterated Israel's "deep sorrow and regret" over the accidental killing of innocent civilians, and told the council that terrorism by Hamas was to blame for "the incident in Beit Hanoun". "If Palestinian terror did not continue to assault Israelis, if Qassam rockets stopped sailing out of Gaza into Israel, the incident in Beit Hanoun would never have happened," Carmon said. "A single decision is needed: The Palestinian Authority government must decide to stop using terrorism as a means to achieving its goals."[11] At a business conference in Tel Aviv, Prime Minister Olmert said, "I am very uncomfortable with this event. I'm very distressed." Olmert called it a "mistake" caused by "technical failure," and he urged Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to meet with him immediately.[10] Israeli organizations, including Peace Now and Gush Shalom and political parties Meretz and Hadash held a protest in Tel Aviv shortly after news of the killings broke.[12] Israeli human rights group B'Tselem described the policy of returning fire to the general area from which a rocket attack is launched a "war crime."

Operation Summer Rains - IDF reaction to an attack

Operation "Summer Rains" (Hebrew: מבצע גשמי קיץ‎ Mivtza Gishmey Kayitz) refers to the series of battles between Palestinian militants and the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during summer 2006, prompted by Palestinian operations which resulted in the capture of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit.

Operation Cast Lead - IDF reaction to repeated rocket attacks

The conflict resulted in between 1,166 and 1,417 Palestinian and 13 Israeli deaths (4 from friendly fire).[58] According to the Shin Bet, after the conflict, there was a decrease in Palestinian rocket attacks.[59] In September 2009, a UN special mission, headed by the South African Justice Richard Goldstone, produced a report accusing both Palestinian militants and the IDF of war crimes and possible crimes against humanity, and recommended bringing those responsible to justice.[60] In January 2010, the Israeli government released a response criticizing the Goldstone Report and disputing its findings.[61] In 2011, Goldstone wrote that he no longer believed that Israel intentionally targeted civilians in Gaza.[62] The other authors of the report, Hina Jilani, Christine Chinkin, and Desmond Travers, rejected Goldstone's re-assessment
Click to expand...

So you have no intention of admitting that you didn't actually know when the blockade started and guessed wrongly , okay no probs

Your post was about the number of rockets fired in those years but failed to take into account the escalation in violence on both sides

You also completely ignored the ongoing Israeli practice of extrajudicial killings of Palestinians during those periods which , in my opinion and I think it makes complete sense to think this , will be the reasons behind most of the rocket attacks on Israel in times of less obvious escalations in violence.

That you want to ignore such an obvious factor and just start from the rocket firing in order to present it in the only way you can handle it is obvious too

Goldstones recantation , though evidently damaging to the report , is not credible and it looks like he was either threatened and/or blackmailed into it. You won't know this because you live in the mushroom farm. Or maybe you did and that's why you decided to highlight only the quote that said he recanted and not the part directly after it that stated every one of the others stood by it

BTW a huge cut and paste was the lazy option. Duly noted
 
Last edited:
oneworld2 said:
Nope , where we differ is I apply the same standards to both sides and you don't. Plus you have your own personal definition of terrorism that only a small group of fanatics would ever subscribe to. Thankfully

Stone throwing , damaging fences etc are not terrorist acts and will never be seen as such by normal people



Nope , to punish an entire people because of the actions of a few is a collective punishment



They are not firing rockets this month so far and how many have died taking part in the protests ?

Your own military regularly attack and kill people in Gaza and the WB. To try to portray the conflict without comment that both sides commit crimes is to try to deceive and subvert the record.

The Israeli stranglehold over the people of Gaza predates Hamas. At some point you are going to have to address this gaping hole in your defence of Israeli state terrorism




The Goldstone report and numerous Human rights organisations groups reports come to the same conclusion.............. both sides use their weapons indiscriminately . If you have to rely on using intentionally graphic accounts of this or that individual crime in order to illicit an emotional response be sure you are getting desperate , we can all do it . Some Jews set fire to Palestinian kids ? Remember ?




As already pointed out to you on numerous occasions , you have a very extremist view on what counts as a terrorist act.

You also wish to make people believe that there is no cycle of violence that emanates from the brutal and repressive Israeli policies towards and occupation of the Palestinians




I get it , every one of your posts is replete with references to " innocent Jews " and " terrorist Palestinians ". It's like you have to reach a certain target of such adjectives in as many posts as it is possible to achieve.

More balanced people will see that the truth is that both sides commit atrocities despite your attempts to deceive them
Click to expand...

Your consistent reference to how "normal people", "balanced people" etc. will support your pro-violence world view and your beliefs that terrorism against Jews must never be confronted and stopped is a lame and futile attempt to convince oneself that one's positions are not radical and extremist. They are. Referring to the UNHRC and other meaningless anti-Israeli bodies and their positions is just as futile and meaningless.

Israel targets terrorists. That we know as a fact, that we know from history and that some of us know from a personal experience. The terrorists on the other hand target innocents. There might be many definitions of the term but most will agree that terrorism involves a tactic to target those who aren't involved in combat, it's indisputable that Israel's targeting of terrorists is the complete opposite of the violence you promote from the other side directed against innocent civilians.

Arguing against the safety of innocents you believe need to be attacked makes your positions morally absent and your world view easy to dismiss from the human point of view. It is why you're never close to be holding the moral high ground in any of your arguments with pretty much anyone and why it's easy to dismiss your claims when they originate from such a hateful, violent agenda that places you in favor of anyone who engages in violence (Hamas, Palestinian attackers, etc.) and not against anyone who is the victim of that violence (Israeli, Palestinian and other).
 
PoS said:
Its a fact that Isreal commits state terrorism.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel
Click to expand...

State terrorism would be the engagement in violence against innocents as a tactic by the state, something like what your favorite Syrian dictator does in Syria for several years now dropping barrel bombs on his very own citizens so to deter any attempt to resist his tyranny. That is not something that is done by the Israeli state and the only ones who claim so just happen to be on the side of those who actually murder innocents and celebrate their murders which goes to show their credibility. Your reference is not to an act of state terrorism but to a soldier shooting a 13 year old girl in a war zone, an incident already investigated where he was charged and later found to be not guilty and the testimony was found to be false.

That you are required to refer to an incident to try and base your imaginary "state terror" claim is very telling of the corrupted mindset leading to this propaganda-nonsense conclusion. Incidents happen in times of war, some of them like this one are found to be not criminal and others are indeed criminal, but simply referring to an incident like this one or an American soldier in Iraq or a British soldier in Afghanistan and using it to invent an imaginary "state terror" accusation is pathetic, especially coming from those who would actually find themselves on the side of the ones engaging in real acts of terror.
 
Apocalypse said:
Israel has the right to defend itself. The blockade is legitimate, Israel is attacked by the ruling party of Gaza which is an Islamic terror group.

The terror-led campaign in Gaza isn't about breaking out of Gaza, it's about promoting Hamas propaganda. Which is what you're doing here as well when you constantly try to legitimize their violence and argue in the name of the terrorists.
Click to expand...

Israel has a right to defend itself, and I would go further and say it has a duty to defend itself. However, this has to be done within the rules of international law. The problem is, Israel is not adhering to those rules. Collective punishment, illegal settlements, using civilians as human shields, murdering innocent civilians.

Just because Hamas are bad, doesn't make Israel good.
 
Aristaeus said:
Israel has a right to defend itself, and I would go further and say it has a duty to defend itself. However, this has to be done within the rules of international law. The problem is, Israel is not adhering to those rules. Collective punishment, illegal settlements, using civilians as human shields, murdering innocent civilians.

Just because Hamas are bad, doesn't make Israel good.
Click to expand...

Yes but those are just nonsensical lies as Israel's acts of self defense are moral and far from criminal.
 
Apocalypse said:
Yes but those are just nonsensical lies as Israel's acts of self defense are moral and far from criminal.
Click to expand...

They are not lies, it is reality. Israel's use of collective punishment is extensive and well known and is in clear violation of international law. Illegal settlements are illegal. Israel has used civilians as human shields when entering homes they fear may be booby-trapped, and of course they have deliberately killed innocent civilians. All of these are facts and illegal.
 
Aristaeus said:
They are not lies, it is reality. Israel's use of collective punishment is extensive and well known and is in clear violation of international law. Illegal settlements are illegal. Israel has used civilians as human shields when entering homes they fear may be booby-trapped, and of course they have deliberately killed innocent civilians. All of these are facts and illegal.
Click to expand...

What do you call ignoring reality to promote a claim that portrays the Israeli legitimate targeting of terrorists and the actions taken against those who attack it (and against them alone) as criminal acts if not lies? They are lies, lies that are told many times but still just that. Just to refer to your claims here, the settlements may indeed be seen as illegal by the international community, the tactic you're referring to was checking the houses of neighbors for terror operatives known to the IDF and "checking for booby traps" is something either done on the soldiers' own mind and punished by the IDF or not done at all in many cases where such accusations were made, and no Israel doesn't deliberately target innocent civilians it targets terrorists and that's a fact. Your inability to cope with reality and need to create one where Israel does target civilians is your own fault, you're merely spreading a lie.
 
Apocalypse said:
What do you call ignoring reality to promote a claim that portrays the Israeli legitimate targeting of terrorists and the actions taken against those who attack it (and against them alone) as criminal acts if not lies? They are lies, lies that are told many times but still just that. Just to refer to your claims here, the settlements may indeed be seen as illegal by the international community, the tactic you're referring to was checking the houses of neighbors for terror operatives known to the IDF and "checking for booby traps" is something either done on the soldiers' own mind and punished by the IDF or not done at all in many cases where such accusations were made, and no Israel doesn't deliberately target innocent civilians it targets terrorists and that's a fact. Your inability to cope with reality and need to create one where Israel does target civilians is your own fault, you're merely spreading a lie.
Click to expand...

So the children who were deliberately shelled on the beach were terrorists? The child cowering with his father who were both shot dead was a terrorist?
 
Aristaeus said:
So the children who were deliberately shelled on the beach were terrorists? The child cowering with his father who were both shot dead was a terrorist?
Click to expand...

IIRC the 2 incidences you are talking about - the first was an accident resulting from faulty intelligence and the second after years of anti-Israel propaganda it was clear in retrospect was not caused by any Israeli fire. May or kay not have been Pallywood but the kid was not killed by the Israelis.

Neither of them are evidence of any of your claims.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Aristaeus said:
So the children who were deliberately shelled on the beach were terrorists? The child cowering with his father who were both shot dead was a terrorist?
Click to expand...

Still waiting for that "deliberate killing of civilians" proof.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom