Palestinian Support for Hamas

How prevalent is it? I truly don't know. I totally understand the desire to divorce or separate Palestinians from Hamas when criticism of both or either come up, but I wonder if Palestinians, especially those engaged in this "march" are so quick or keen to separate themselves? I had read that the Great March of Return or maybe more accurately, the March to End Israel was largely financed and supported by Hamas, which makes total sense if you take into account Hamas's stated purpose. According to this very anti-Israel (so it should resonate with some) op ed, Hamas is actually just doing what Palestinians are demanding of them.

Israel’s propaganda and its mouthpieces overseas — such as the Board of Deputies of British Jews — are portraying these unarmed marchers as “puppets” or “pawns” of Hamas. This is a lie, and is intended to do nothing less than whitewash multiple acts of murder.

The irony of this lie is that the very opposite is true. The support that the Hamas political leadership in Gaza has afforded this popular protest march for basic human rights is, in fact, the result of popular pressure on the movement to act, not the other way around.The irony of this lie is that the very opposite is true. The support that the Hamas political leadership in Gaza has afforded this popular protest march for basic human rights is, in fact, the result of popular pressure on the movement to act, not the other way around.



https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...ans-have-started-their-great-march-of-return/

(Really, read the whole thing. It's pretty illuminating.)

Is he right?

X Factor said:

How prevalent is it? I truly don't know. I totally understand the desire to divorce or separate Palestinians from Hamas when criticism of both or either come up, but I wonder if Palestinians, especially those engaged in this "march" are so quick or keen to separate themselves? I had read that the Great March of Return or maybe more accurately, the March to End Israel was largely financed and supported by Hamas, which makes total sense if you take into account Hamas's stated purpose. According to this very anti-Israel (so it should resonate with some) op ed, Hamas is actually just doing what Palestinians are demanding of them.

Israel’s propaganda and its mouthpieces overseas — such as the Board of Deputies of British Jews — are portraying these unarmed marchers as “puppets” or “pawns” of Hamas. This is a lie, and is intended to do nothing less than whitewash multiple acts of murder.

The irony of this lie is that the very opposite is true. The support that the Hamas political leadership in Gaza has afforded this popular protest march for basic human rights is, in fact, the result of popular pressure on the movement to act, not the other way around.The irony of this lie is that the very opposite is true. The support that the Hamas political leadership in Gaza has afforded this popular protest march for basic human rights is, in fact, the result of popular pressure on the movement to act, not the other way around.



https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...ans-have-started-their-great-march-of-return/

(Really, read the whole thing. It's pretty illuminating.)

Is he right?

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The only thing I really know is that every single American wouldn't stand for it if they woke up a Palestinian in Gaza.

Its no way to live.

What if...? said:

The only thing I really know is that every single American wouldn't stand for it if they woke up a Palestinian in Gaza.

Its no way to live.

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Yeah, Hamas has really screwed Gazan's over.

The Gazans taking part in this march are ****ing idiots.

That may sound harsh but it's the absolute truth. There will never be a return to Israel, because these people were not "run out" of Israel, they left of their own accord (or their ancestors did) and after that the border was secured. The Arabs who did not leave still reside in Israel and are active in the country's government.

Gazans know there will never be a return -- they have no right to a return -- but just the fact that Gazans are pulling this and not the Palestinians on the West Bank and in Golan suggest that Hamas is behind it.

Hamas loves to get ignorant Gazans to go out and risk their lives. Hamas thrives on high death tolls.

Since the march started, ignorant Gazans have been shooting guns, flying bombs over the border on kites, and physically trying to breach the fence, something they all know will get them killed.

Absolutely -- Hamas is behind the idiocy -- and the Gazans appear to be just dumb enough to go along with it.

I guess it doesn't take brains to sacrifice your life for a terrorist faction -- it just takes cult mentality.

What if...? said:

The only thing I really know is that every single American wouldn't stand for it if they woke up a Palestinian in Gaza.

Its no way to live.

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Yeah, they should try to do something productive about it for a change. Doesn't seem like the continual agitation for Israel's destruction, the suicide bombs, the rockets, the shootings and stabbings and gleeful embrace of a death cult really helped them make things better.

Wonder how it would have been if the Palestinians had come to terms with Israel's existence and made peace back in the 90s.

... the full right of return for every individual refugee ...

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i predict this will happen immediately after American Indians are provided the full right of return to their lands, taken by force by the American settlers

what is more obvious than the fact that israel is not going away. it is the only nation in the region with nuclear weapons. no military can match israel's, even excluding the nuclear weapons
that is the reality that Palestinians refuse to understand
and until their leaders are willing to acknowledge that reality, the Palestinian cause is ****ed

i hate it, because the Palestinians are getting the short end of the stick. time and time again
but some sense of the reality of their real situation needs to sink in

justabubba said:

i predict this will happen immediately after American Indians are provided the full right of return to their lands, taken by force by the American settlers

what is more obvious than the fact that israel is not going away. it is the only nation in the region with nuclear weapons. no military can match israel's, even excluding the nuclear weapons
that is the reality that Palestinians refuse to understand
and until their leaders are willing to acknowledge that reality, the Palestinian cause is ****ed

i hate it, because the Palestinians are getting the short end of the stick. time and time again
but some sense of the reality of their real situation needs to sink in

Click to expand...

Yeah it is too bad. Cause things could be so much better, for everyone. Unfortunately, the European/international approach is profoundly counter-productive as it is all focused on keeping that hope alive among the Palestinians while preventing the political and societal reforms necessary to allow the population to move beyond the original destructionist purpose of Palestinian nationalism.

If the Palestinians were peaceful and truly accepted Israel's existence there is no reason why you couldn't have more or less open borders between the territories and Israel with goods and people moving freely. And if that was true then I think there would be a bit less digging in around exactly which country got this or that inch of territory. My understanding is that it looked like this during the 1970s and while things were certainly not all fine and good and they were not "good old days", that would seem a profoundly better outcome than the closed borders, security barriers and checkpoints that have resulted from Palestinian terrorism and continued rejection of any peace that would allow Israel to continue to exist.

I strongly believe that the Israelis really are motivated both by security and a desire for true acceptance. That is both the result of the Jewish legacy of continued historical rejection but also by the fact that most Jews in Israel are middle-eastern and would like nothing more than to be accepted as an integral and organic part of the middle east. "Normalization" is something the Jews, left and right, Ashkenazi and Sephardi, really do value and was part of what the Jews were looking for when they re-established their homeland 70 years ago. The Palestinians have from day 1 been all about rejectionism and that has never, ever changed, in spite of soundbites for public consumption to English audiences.

If the Europeans and international community really wanted peace out of all of this rather than being motivated by a whole bunch of baggage about the Jews and their prior behaviour, they would realize that they need to focus their efforts on the Palestinian governance and education systems and being firm that Palestinian rejectionism will cost them support and money, instead of constantly running obstruction for the Palestinians' bad faith and behaviour while investing billions on projects to make the Palestinians feel like they still own territory that isn't theirs. One observer noted the abject poverty of Palestinians living in Jordan, for example, and wondered if money spent in the Palestinian corruption swamp and lavish renovations of buildings no one uses in Bethlahem couldn't be better spent to help Palestinians in Jordan and he had a point. So much money is thrown at the Palestinians that could do so much good elsewhere and actually does nothing productive for the Palestinians themselves.

justabubba said:

i predict this will happen immediately after American Indians are provided the full right of return to their lands, taken by force by the American settlers

what is more obvious than the fact that israel is not going away. it is the only nation in the region with nuclear weapons. no military can match israel's, even excluding the nuclear weapons
that is the reality that Palestinians refuse to understand
and until their leaders are willing to acknowledge that reality, the Palestinian cause is ****ed

i hate it, because the Palestinians are getting the short end of the stick. time and time again
but some sense of the reality of their real situation needs to sink in

Click to expand...

Yep. This.

The right of return debate will continue to be one of the most contentious issues in the I/P conflict but it's over, let it go. Won't happen. Compromise.

From my experiences, many of those in Gaza just want to live a simple life. A better life than what they have now.

Keeping in mind the Strip is 41 kilometers (25 miles long) long, and from 6 to 12 kilometers (3.7 to 7.5 miles) wide, with a total area of 365 square kilometers, there isn't much room to hide and they just can't distance themselves and leave. There is no way out. The Rafah crossing is largely sealed and has only been opened 4 times this year. (It was opened a couple of weekends ago for 3 days for humanitarian cases only.)

Getting back to my initial paragraph, how they do that, I just don't know.

It's important to note that since 2006 there have been no official democratic elections in the Gaza Strip and only the top few Hamas Officials get to make political decisions in Gaza. The vast majority of Palestinians did not vote for Hamas because of its political goals but because of their desire to rid the Palestinian Authority of corruption, a theme Hamas campaigned on. We had a discussion here some time ago relating to this and rather than me writing a big spiel i'll re post Dons post because he did a good job of interpreting the results.

donsutherland1 said:

As the 2006 Palestinian election came up. A snapshot is in order:

1. Hamas ("Change and Reform" list) won 44.4% of the vote while Fatah won 41.5% (ispCP OMEGA).
2. Voters' expectations: Reform Palestian governmental institutions (81%); improve internal security (80%); improve economic conditions (78%); promote democracy (77%); resumption of negotiations with Israel (68%); ease of [Gaza] closure (62%); Israeli withdrawal: 43%
3. Biggest reasons for those who voted for Hamas not Fatah: Ending corruption: 43%; religious reasons: 19%; [Hamas'] political agenda: 12%
4. Expectations following the election results: 74% didn't expect Hamas to win an overwhelming majority; 67% expected a Hamas-led government would commit to negotiations with Israel

(exit poll: ispCP OMEGA)

In short, Palestinian voters were voted more as a rejection of Fatah's performance than an embrace of Hamas' radical agenda. In fact, they expected that a Hamas-led government would commit to negotiations with Israel.

What one witnessed was a tendency among voters to choose against an ineffectual government while transposing their hopes and expectations on the side they supported. Instead, there was a large gap between Hamas' unyielding rejection of peace with Israel and the voters' expectations that the group would pursue a more moderate course. Of course, in 2007, Hamas used force of arms to seize control of the Gaza Strip.

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Then consider Operation Protective Edge was 4 years ago now. At the time, Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon stated that the direct cost of the Protective Edge military offensive in the Gaza Strip was more than $2.5 billion. They attacked over 6,000 targets, more than 5,000 of them by air and approx 900 from land and sea. He also acknowledged that Palestinian factions in Gaza still had a sizable arsenal left.

The IDF bombed the Strip for 50 days and Hamas and other factions are still in power there. It begs the question as to how does a largely unarmed population without the military weaponry and prowess that the IDF have, disarm Hamas, when they couldn't?

We also saw reports of public summary executions of Palestinian Civilians by Hamas of anyone that they deemed as being threats. They murder their own people. They also then declared that the same punishment will be imposed soon on others and re-iterated that treason is a capital offence under Palestinian law.

How do you overcome that? I don't know. I wish I did.

Serenity said:

From my experiences, many of those in Gaza just want to live a simple life. A better life than what they have now.

Keeping in mind the Strip is 41 kilometers (25 miles long) long, and from 6 to 12 kilometers (3.7 to 7.5 miles) wide, with a total area of 365 square kilometers, there isn't much room to hide and they just can't distance themselves and leave. There is no way out. The Rafah crossing is largely sealed and has only been opened 4 times this year. (It was opened a couple of weekends ago for 3 days for humanitarian cases only.)

Getting back to my initial paragraph, how they do that, I just don't know.

It's important to note that since 2006 there have been no official democratic elections in the Gaza Strip and only the top few Hamas Officials get to make political decisions in Gaza. The vast majority of Palestinians did not vote for Hamas because of its political goals but because of their desire to rid the Palestinian Authority of corruption, a theme Hamas campaigned on. We had a discussion here some time ago relating to this and rather than me writing a big spiel i'll re post Dons post because he did a good job of interpreting the results.



Then consider Operation Protective Edge was 4 years ago now. At the time, Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon stated that the direct cost of the Protective Edge military offensive in the Gaza Strip was more than $2.5 billion. They attacked over 6,000 targets, more than 5,000 of them by air and approx 900 from land and sea. He also acknowledged that Palestinian factions in Gaza still had a sizable arsenal left.

The IDF bombed the Strip for 50 days and Hamas and other factions are still in power there. It begs the question as to how does a largely unarmed population without the military weaponry and prowess that the IDF have, disarm Hamas, when they couldn't?

We also saw reports of public summary executions of Palestinian Civilians by Hamas of anyone that they deemed as being threats. They murder their own people. They also then declared that the same punishment will be imposed soon on others and re-iterated that treason is a capital offence under Palestinian law.

How do you overcome that? I don't know. I wish I did.

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yeah me too. I would suggest that demonizing Israel, legitimizing Hamas and the "March of Return" and continuing to throw money at the PA to spend on terrorists and rejectionist textbooks may not be the way to go. Wish that would enter the pro-Palestinian discussion as a fundamental issue.

Serenity said:

From my experiences, many of those in Gaza just want to live a simple life. A better life than what they have now.

Keeping in mind the Strip is 41 kilometers (25 miles long) long, and from 6 to 12 kilometers (3.7 to 7.5 miles) wide, with a total area of 365 square kilometers, there isn't much room to hide and they just can't distance themselves and leave. There is no way out. The Rafah crossing is largely sealed and has only been opened 4 times this year. (It was opened a couple of weekends ago for 3 days for humanitarian cases only.)

Getting back to my initial paragraph, how they do that, I just don't know.

It's important to note that since 2006 there have been no official democratic elections in the Gaza Strip and only the top few Hamas Officials get to make political decisions in Gaza. The vast majority of Palestinians did not vote for Hamas because of its political goals but because of their desire to rid the Palestinian Authority of corruption, a theme Hamas campaigned on. We had a discussion here some time ago relating to this and rather than me writing a big spiel i'll re post Dons post because he did a good job of interpreting the results.



Then consider Operation Protective Edge was 4 years ago now. At the time, Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon stated that the direct cost of the Protective Edge military offensive in the Gaza Strip was more than $2.5 billion. They attacked over 6,000 targets, more than 5,000 of them by air and approx 900 from land and sea. He also acknowledged that Palestinian factions in Gaza still had a sizable arsenal left.

The IDF bombed the Strip for 50 days and Hamas and other factions are still in power there. It begs the question as to how does a largely unarmed population without the military weaponry and prowess that the IDF have, disarm Hamas, when they couldn't?

We also saw reports of public summary executions of Palestinian Civilians by Hamas of anyone that they deemed as being threats. They murder their own people. They also then declared that the same punishment will be imposed soon on others and re-iterated that treason is a capital offence under Palestinian law.

How do you overcome that? I don't know. I wish I did.

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I’d think, at the very least, international blame needs to be placed squarely where it belongs. Continuing to make Isreal the boogy man, with no responsibility at all on the Palestinian side only assists groups like Hamas

I do appreciate, for real, the thoughtful response. You seem to be suggesting that there’s coercion and intimidation from Hamas which I wouldn’t doubt. I’d be curious to know if you think the people participating in the “march” are being coerced or threatened to be there.

justabubba said:

i predict this will happen immediately after American Indians are provided the full right of return to their lands, taken by force by the American settlers

what is more obvious than the fact that israel is not going away. it is the only nation in the region with nuclear weapons. no military can match israel's, even excluding the nuclear weapons
that is the reality that Palestinians refuse to understand
and until their leaders are willing to acknowledge that reality, the Palestinian cause is ****ed

i hate it, because the Palestinians are getting the short end of the stick. time and time again
but some sense of the reality of their real situation needs to sink in

Click to expand...

Justabubba:

Afrikaner dominated South Africa in the 1980's had the most powerful military in the region and possessed nuclear weapons. Yet that regime is now gone due to non-violent action taken by the international community and the enduring will of the South African people to free themselves from state oppression. So the presence of an overwhelmingly powerful military and possession of nuclear weapons is not a guarantee that a state will survive the combination of a popular uprising and international pressure.

If South Africans can make such a vast change in their shared society without resorting to the use of nuclear weapons perhaps all the people in the Palestine/Israel region can learn from that journey and can do it too. That requires political will. But to date neither side is willing to make the hard compromises to make that great change happen.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Evilroddy said:

Justabubba:

Afrikaner dominated South Africa in the 1980's had the most powerful military in the region and possessed nuclear weapons. Yet that regime is now gone due to non-violent action taken by the international community and the enduring will of the South African people to free themselves from state oppression. So the presence of an overwhelmingly powerful military and possession of nuclear weapons is not a guarantee that a state will survive the combination of a popular uprising and international pressure.

If South Africans can make such a vast change in their shared society without resorting to the use of nuclear weapons perhaps all the people in the Palestine/Israel region can learn from that journey and can do it too. That requires political will. But to date neither side is willing to make the hard compromises to make that great change happen.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

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Israel’s not going to compromise their very existence and they shouldn’t.

HowardBThiname said:

The Gazans taking part in this march are ****ing idiots.

That may sound harsh but it's the absolute truth. There will never be a return to Israel, because these people were not "run out" of Israel, they left of their own accord (or their ancestors did) and after that the border was secured. The Arabs who did not leave still reside in Israel and are active in the country's government.

Gazans know there will never be a return -- they have no right to a return -- but just the fact that Gazans are pulling this and not the Palestinians on the West Bank and in Golan suggest that Hamas is behind it.

Hamas loves to get ignorant Gazans to go out and risk their lives. Hamas thrives on high death tolls.

Since the march started, ignorant Gazans have been shooting guns, flying bombs over the border on kites, and physically trying to breach the fence, something they all know will get them killed.

Absolutely -- Hamas is behind the idiocy -- and the Gazans appear to be just dumb enough to go along with it.

I guess it doesn't take brains to sacrifice your life for a terrorist faction -- it just takes cult mentality.

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According to the guy I quoted in my OP;

As I write this, Palestinians in Gaza have begun what one of their leaders has called a major new phase towards the liberation of Palestine and the return of their refugees. A series of marches is taking place, each heading towards the illegal occupation fence which Israel maintains around the Gaza Strip; the intent is a full return to Palestine. This is no mere symbolism; the refugees fully intend to return to their country— their whole country — from which they were brutally evicted in 1948 for the crime of being the “wrong” ethnicity and religion.

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If that’s true, the march isn’t a demonstration, it’s an invasion.

X Factor said:

According to the guy I quoted in my OP;



If that’s true, the march isn’t a demonstration, it’s an invasion.

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is it even possible to "invade" one's own lands

justabubba said:

is it even possible to "invade" one's own lands

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Since it’s not actually theirs, yes.


Oh, also, just cause I can’t help myself, assume you dint think that Israel can’t invade Iraq, for example, notwithstanding the massive influx of Jews ethnically cleansed from there, including a very large proportion of the Bagdad population?

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justabubba said:

is it even possible to "invade" one's own lands

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It's not their land.

justabubba said:

is it even possible to "invade" one's own lands

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Earlier you were all, "they need to acknowledge the reality of their situation" then you promptly don't. Whatever. Israel haters gotta hate, I guess.

HowardBThiname said:

The Gazans taking part in this march are ****ing idiots.

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Not " ****ing idots " imo , just desperate people in a desperate ongoing nightmare

That may sound harsh but it's the absolute truth.

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It doesn't sound " harsh " to me , it sounds like you have no concept of their situation . And it's only the " absolute truth " according to you and some others. Others still a very different view that is the opposite of your position

There will never be a return to Israel, because these people were not "run out" of Israel, they left of their own accord (or their ancestors did) and after that the border was secured. The Arabs who did not leave still reside in Israel and are active in the country's government.

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Nope , some of them were definitely run off the land in 1947-49 and some fled. Most historians now agree on this and many of the myths surrounding this period have been undermined due to the advent of new information released decades later

Gazans know there will never be a return -- they have no right to a return -- but just the fact that Gazans are pulling this and not the Palestinians on the West Bank and in Golan suggest that Hamas is behind it.

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I'm sure many of them do know they will never return to where their families resided in Palestine and I don't think that it's this that is the real driver behind the current situation there. More a case of reminding the world that Israel is still denying them their rights and a state of their own.

BTW they do have that right to return , even if the reality is that it won't happen ( my position on it ) ,or compensation . UN Resolutions and international conventions make a very good case that those rights are supported. Remember too that Israel's admittance to the UN ( res 273 ) was dependent on it recognizing and agreeing to the same resolutions and conventions that grant the Palestinians such rights

Hamas loves to get ignorant Gazans to go out and risk their lives. Hamas thrives on high death tolls.

Since the march started, ignorant Gazans have been shooting guns, flying bombs over the border on kites, and physically trying to breach the fence, something they all know will get them killed.

Click to expand...

I definitely see it more as desperate Gazans rather than " ignorant " ones. Of course none violent protests amongst Palestinians kinda put Hamas in a position of losing their grip on what direction should be taken to steer Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation and suppression. I think that's why they have had some of their membership engaged in aggressive actions like the ones we have been seeing and commenting on

Absolutely -- Hamas is behind the idiocy -- and the Gazans appear to be just dumb enough to go along with it.

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The vast majority of the protesters haven't engaged in " the idiocy " and shouldn't be classed as " dumb " either. Their situation is they have to deal with the reality of rule by Hamas and an unwillingness to put your head above the parapet there is fully understandable imo. That shouldn't be misconstrued as " going along with it ". Don't mistake a justifiable fear with being " dumb "

oneworld2 said:

I'm sure many of them do know they will never return to where their families resided in Palestine and I don't think that it's this that is the real driver behind the current situation there. More a case of reminding the world that Israel is still denying them their rights and a state of their own.

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Here's the problem as I see it -- every time a 2-state proposal has been on the table, the Gazans have turned it down because it doesn't include a right of return. Sometimes, they've turned it down just because they insist that Israel does not have a right to exist. They're completely unreasonable.

BTW they do have that right to return , even if the reality is that it won't happen ( my position on it ) ,or compensation . UN Resolutions and international conventions make a very good case that those rights are supported. Remember too that Israel's admittance to the UN ( res 273 ) was dependent on it recognizing and agreeing to the same resolutions and conventions that grant the Palestinians such rights

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Legally, any who were run off have a right to return, but if you read your history book, you'll find that they left of their own accord. Those who left were encouraged to do so by the surrounding Arabs, and the Arabs promised they would fight and run the Jews off. That didn't happen, but that doesn't mean they deserve to come back, There are more than 1.5 million Arab citizens of Israel today -- the ones who did not run. They deserve to be there -- and they are.

And, in short, a right of return would be a death penalty for Israel.

The International community would be better off paying the Gazans handsomely for their land and relocating them to other parts of the Arab world where they could live as they chose and Israel could expand into the Gaza strip. Geographically, there's simply no way it will work out as it currently is.

And, it's not just Israel. Gaza borders Egypt and that country won't allow the Gazans to enter either. Don't you wonder why?

HowardBThiname said:

Here's the problem as I see it -- every time a 2-state proposal has been on the table, the Gazans have turned it down because it doesn't include a right of return. Sometimes, they've turned it down just because they insist that Israel does not have a right to exist. They're completely unreasonable.



Legally, any who were run off have a right to return, but if you read your history book, you'll find that they left of their own accord. Those who left were encouraged to do so by the surrounding Arabs, and the Arabs promised they would fight and run the Jews off. That didn't happen, but that doesn't mean they deserve to come back, There are more than 1.5 million Arab citizens of Israel today -- the ones who did not run. They deserve to be there -- and they are.

And, in short, a right of return would be a death penalty for Israel.

The International community would be better off paying the Gazans handsomely for their land and relocating them to other parts of the Arab world where they could live as they chose and Israel could expand into the Gaza strip. Geographically, there's simply no way it will work out as it currently is.

And, it's not just Israel. Gaza borders Egypt and that country won't allow the Gazans to enter either. Don't you wonder why?

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Anyone who advocates for a “right of return” for the Palestinians but doesn’t advocate for the return of the Sudeten germans or the Indians or Pakistanis or the Arab Jews or the tens of millions of other post WWII refugees is a raging hypocrite who is fixated on this conflict for some reason.






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CJ 2.0 said:

Anyone who advocates for a “right of return” for the Palestinians but doesn’t advocate for the return of the Sudeten germans or the Indians or Pakistanis or the Arab Jews or the tens of millions of other post WWII refugees is a raging hypocrite who is fixated on this conflict for some reason.

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That's a very good point.

CJ 2.0 said:

Anyone who advocates for a “right of return” for the Palestinians but doesn’t advocate for the return of the Sudeten germans or the Indians or Pakistanis or the Arab Jews or the tens of millions of other post WWII refugees is a raging hypocrite who is fixated on this conflict for some reason.






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I have no problem at all if those people return to their homelands, but since Germany, Pakistan and India all have countries of their own, unlike the Palestinians, its an apples to oranges fallacy.

PoS said:

I have no problem at all if those people return to their homelands, but since Germany, Pakistan and India all have countries of their own, unlike the Palestinians, its an apples to oranges fallacy.

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The Palestinians have been offered their own state many times, but they continue to refuse to cooperate because that would mean having to accept Israel as a state as well.

HowardBThiname said:

The Palestinians have been offered their own state many times, but they continue to refuse to cooperate because that would mean having to accept Israel as a state as well.

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Wrong. They have refused because Isreal is not allowing their right to return to their original settlements.