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Palestinian Journalist Fatally Shot While Covering Gaza Protest [W:13]

Tigerace117 said:
Actually, it is certainly not "impossible". It may occasionally take more effort than you are interested in to avoid killing innocents, but it is not acceptable under both international or military law to just waste civvies on the off chance that they might have something to do with Hamas.

No, flying an unarmed drone at a protest does not "pose a threat" in any way, shape or form.
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Efforts? You expect a group of soldiers that are currently dealing with violent attackers who are mostly Islamic terrorists and who suddenly recognize a drone over their heads and someone from the ranks of those violent attackers flying it to just do nothing and wait for an investigation into who this man is what are his motives and what is he planning to do? When the very next moment they could all be dead if they don't act? If that is your expectation then it's just not going to happen and regardless of whether he is an innocent who has done some dumb thing or not he is responsible for placing himself in danger. There are ways to do the job of a journalist without creating situations that place yourself as an imminent threat. Next.
 
Jack Hays said:
Again, Hamas doesn't matter. His actions mattered.
Your armchair soldiering is just silly. His cause of death was his own stupidity.
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Again, the fact that he was a noncombatant matters more than anything else.

His cause of death was Israeli triggerhappiness and apparent lack of concern about the whether the people they are shooting at are actually combatants.
 
Apocalypse said:
Efforts? You expect a group of soldiers that are currently dealing with violent attackers who are mostly Islamic terrorists and who suddenly recognize a drone over their heads and someone from the ranks of those violent attackers flying it to just do nothing and wait for an investigation into who this man is what are his motives and what is he planning to do? When the very next moment they could all be dead if they don't act? If that is your expectation then it's just not going to happen and regardless of whether he is an innocent who has done some dumb thing or not he is responsible for placing himself in danger. There are ways to do the job of a journalist without creating situations that place yourself as an imminent threat. Next.
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They were at a protest, not ****ing Iwo Jima. They certainly weren't "about to be overrun" or whatever crap you've invented to justify habitual blazing away at civvies.

Yes, I expect Israeli soldiers,who you claim have better policies att preventing collateral damage than the US, to actually prevent collateral damage instead of wildly opening up like a bunch of idiots.

Clearly, just being a journalist when there are Israeli troops around is "putting yourself in mortal danger".
 
Evilroddy said:
Jack Hays:

To make an example to whom? Palestinian reporters? The free press? That is an interesting POV you have articulated there. So simply reporting the news is a military act making the reporter a military combatant and thus news is an extension of warfare by other means? Von Clausewitz would be most amused by the black humour and gang-land logic implicit in your rationale offered above, I think.

It is interesting that those who rightly condemn the Palestinian militants for their lack of differentiation between civilian and military targets are simultaneously so willing to ignore, rationalise and forgive a state actor for using the same intentional and willful suspension of requisite civilian/military differentiation when in the service of national interests and 'setting examples'.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Right. Because terrorists cant fake a press badge... :roll:
 
Jack Hays said:
Because of Palestinian behavior it is impossible to differentiate between civilians and combatants in that region. It is perfectly OK to kill anyone who appears to pose a threat. Flying a drone clearly poses a threat. As I posted earlier, this was an easy call.
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Makes me wonder how good a reporter he was... if he thought flying a drone over soldiers was a good idea.
 
Jack Hays said:
To make an example to others who might be tempted to fly drones near tactically deployed Israeli troops.
It does not matter in the slightest whether he was a reporter or a militant or a missionary. He flew a drone near deployed troops and they reacted as one would expect. As a result he's dead.
The Palestinians sowed the wind and now reap the whirlwind. No one's fault but their own.
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Jack Hays:

Making examples through the killing of civilians who have done nothing to warrant reprisal or punishment in war time is sort of the definition of a war crime as per international law since the Nuremberg process. So you are advocating for the IDF to continue a practice which the world has defined as a war crime since 1947?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Right. Because terrorists cant fake a press badge... :roll:
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Bodhisattva:

Prove it. Prove that Yaser Murtaja was an Hamas agent working under false accreditation and then the dispute goes away. But until this can be proved to the satisfaction of neutral observers without a vested interest in the case then the IDF spotters and snipers killed an innocent Palestinian journalist doing his lawful job covering a protest in Gaza. His only 'crime' according to some here being that he was Palestinian and thus easily associated by some here as a probable member of Hamas.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
Bodhisattva:

Prove it. Prove that Yaser Murtaja was an Hamas agent working under false accreditation and then the dispute goes away. But until this can be proved to the satisfaction of neutral observers without a vested interest in the case then the IDF spotters and snipers killed an innocent Palestinian journalist doing his lawful job covering a protest in Gaza. His only 'crime' according to some here being that he was Palestinian and thus easily associated by some here as a probable member of Hamas.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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I never said he was a terrorist. Never even implied it. Wanna try again?
 
Bodhisattva said:
I never said he was a terrorist. Never even implied it. Wanna try again?
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Bodhisattva:

You implied that press credentials can be faked in the context of talking about the Yaser Murtaja case. You did not say he was a fake but the clear connotation of your purposeful implication is that you want us to consider he was, in the absence of any evidence to support such an implication or allegation. Please debate honestly and forthrightly rather than appearing to spin innuendo and appearing to pour metaphorical poison into the ears of sleeping kings.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Tigerace117 said:
It's quite telling, by the way, how controversial something as simple as "killing noncombatants is not acceptable" is to you lot.
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Well, for one reason it is because of how it is manipulated by those interested in, say, genocide.

So Hamas routinely uses human shields as part of its push to destroy Israel, and when they successfully put a non-combatant in harms way it becomes Israel's fault.

Also, was just reading about the Allied bombing of that dam in Germany in 1943. Apparently it killed 1600 civilians downstream of the dam. Unfortunately, if one side says not one civilian casualty under any circumstances and the other side says "we will kill all of your civilians and target them at every opportunity while hiding behind our own" the end result is victory for the morally reprehensible and a whole bunch more dead civilians.

So here in real life your reductio ad absurdum that is selectively applied only to the Jews and not to the side that adopted civilian murder as its CORE STRATEGY in its fight to destroy the nation of another people really does say a lot about how seriously we should be taking the argument.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Actually, it is certainly not "impossible". It may occasionally take more effort than you are interested in to avoid killing innocents, but it is not acceptable under both international or military law to just waste civvies on the off chance that they might have something to do with Hamas.

No, flying an unarmed drone at a protest does not "pose a threat" in any way, shape or form.
Click to expand...

This is yet again the "not enough dead Jews" argument. Had the drone been used by snipers or itself loaded with munitions or flammable materiel it would have been dangerous. You don't get to walk on a battlefield with a replica gun and be immune from being targeted because you will be perceived as a threat. It really isn't that complicated.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Again, the fact that he was a noncombatant matters more than anything else.

His cause of death was Israeli triggerhappiness and apparent lack of concern about the whether the people they are shooting at are actually combatants.
Click to expand...

His actions matter more than anything else. They got him killed. Israeli rules of engagement are appropriate.
 
Evilroddy said:
Jack Hays:

Making examples through the killing of civilians who have done nothing to warrant reprisal or punishment in war time is sort of the definition of a war crime as per international law since the Nuremberg process. So you are advocating for the IDF to continue a practice which the world has defined as a war crime since 1947?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Not a war crime. Appropriate response for force protection. The mistake was his; it's what got him killed.
 
Evilroddy said:
Bodhisattva:

You implied that press credentials can be faked in the context of talking about the Yaser Murtaja case. You did not say he was a fake but the clear connotation of your purposeful implication is that you want us to consider he was, in the absence of any evidence to support such an implication or allegation. Please debate honestly and forthrightly rather than appearing to spin innuendo and appearing to pour metaphorical poison into the ears of sleeping kings.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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I make a statement

You assume you know what I meant.

I tell you that you are wrong.

You tell me I am not being honest INSTEAD of asking me to clarify.

...............

Great debating style buddy... you were wrong and remain wrong.

Will you learn from your mistake? Lets watch and see! :lol:
 
Jack Hays said:
Not a war crime. Appropriate response for force protection. The mistake was his; it's what got him killed.
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Jack Hays:

No. The above may be your opinion but international custom and law say otherwise. Shooting non-combatant civilians in order to make an example of them to dissuade other non-combatant civilians from doing something has been a war crime for almost a century and has been expressly forbidden since 1947 and again restated in 1977.

Cheers.
Evilroddy..
 
Bodhisattva said:
I make a statement

You assume you know what I meant.

I tell you that you are wrong.

You tell me I am not being honest INSTEAD of asking me to clarify.

...............

Great debating style buddy... you were wrong and remain wrong.

Will you learn from your mistake? Lets watch and see! :lol:
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Bodhisattva:

This is what you wrote:

Right. Because terrorists cant fake a press badge... (rolling eyes emoticon)
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Prove that in the case of Yaser Murtaja that there was fake credentials or you are just libeling a dead man like Avigdor Lieberman did. It is your own responsibility to post clearly and to remove ambiguity from your posted statements and it is not up to others to bear the burden and time trying to suss out your meaning when you choose to be deliberately obtuse in your language. If you wish to call me wrong, well fine, but I will no longer be responding to your innuendo and provocation. I have learned from my mistake and will not argue nor debate with you if you use such tactics. If you wish to discuss the matter at hand with cited facts, authorities and clearly composed and presented thoughts then I will be happy to debate with you. Otherwise I shall walk across the bridge rather than peering under it.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
Bodhisattva:

This is what you wrote:



Prove that in the case of Yaser Murtaja that there was fake credentials or you are just libeling a dead man like Avigdor Lieberman did. It is your own responsibility to post clearly and to remove ambiguity from your posted statements and it is not up to others to bear the burden and time trying to suss out your meaning when you choose to be deliberately obtuse in your language. If you wish to call me wrong, well fine, but I will no longer be responding to your innuendo and provocation. I have learned from my mistake and will not argue nor debate with you if you use such tactics. If you wish to discuss the matter at hand with cited facts, authorities and clearly composed and presented thoughts then I will be happy to debate with you. Otherwise I shall walk across the bridge rather than peering under it.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Meaning THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS world not be able to tell if a guy wearing a press badge is actually press or not. Own you incorrect assumption. I made a comment. You took it out of context... and you wish to blame me for your error? :roll:

Run along...
 
Evilroddy said:
Jack Hays:

No. The above may be your opinion but international custom and law say otherwise. Shooting non-combatant civilians in order to make an example of them to dissuade other non-combatant civilians from doing something has been a war crime for almost a century and has been expressly forbidden since 1947 and again restated in 1977.

Cheers.
Evilroddy..
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That's OK. The Israelis had fully sufficient justification because he was flying a drone. The "example" angle is just a bonus.
 
Jack Hays said:
Troops in tactical deployment need not read his mind. He was flying a drone in their vicinity. Take him out. Easy call.
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The same Israeli that said he was flying a drone was the same Israeli that said he was a terrorist. Pictures of him said to have been taken before he got shot show him to be using a camera and not flying a drone. Thus far Israel has offered ZERO proof that he was a Hamas commander.The IDF has also not claimed that he was flying a drone

TimesofIsrael said:
Photographs from the area show him using an elaborate camera rig during the demonstration, but not a drone.
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-wont-confirm-defense-ministers-claim-of-killed-journalists-drone/

Thus far all you have offered is unsubstantiated Israeli propaganda from a man noted for making claims that the IDF themselves haven't been able to back up

From the same article......

TimesofIsrael said:
This is not the first time that the defense minister has made claims not supported by the army.

In October, Liberman said that rockets that hit the Golan Heights were intentionally fired at Israel by the Hezbollah terror group in Syria. The army, meanwhile, said it was unaware of such intelligence.

In that case, the defense minister later clarified that this was his own opinion and not the IDF’s assessment.
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Be honest Jack , you obviously don't care about the truth ( you could have found out all of the above for yourself , easily ) ,
 
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CJ 2.0 said:
This is yet again the "not enough dead Jews" argument. Had the drone been used by snipers or itself loaded with munitions or flammable materiel it would have been dangerous. You don't get to walk on a battlefield with a replica gun and be immune from being targeted because you will be perceived as a threat. It really isn't that complicated.
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See above post............. have you ANY proof he was flying a drone ?

You were the one that also called him a Hamas commander IIRC earlier in the thread. Any proof of this claim too ?

Let's hope Leiberman never claims the Palestinians have turned the moon into cheese , for your sake
 
Bodhisattva said:
Meaning THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS world not be able to tell if a guy wearing a press badge is actually press or not.

Run along...
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It doesn't matter if he was wearing a Bugs Bunny onesy at the time he was shot , he obviously didn't pose an imminent and mortal threat to whoever shot him on the Israeli side seeing as he is said to have been unarmed , hundreds of yards away from them with a fence between them to boot .
 
Apocalypse said:
Efforts? You expect a group of soldiers that are currently dealing with violent attackers who are mostly Islamic terrorists and who suddenly recognize a drone over their heads and someone from the ranks of those violent attackers flying it to just do nothing and wait for an investigation into who this man is what are his motives and what is he planning to do? When the very next moment they could all be dead if they don't act? If that is your expectation then it's just not going to happen and regardless of whether he is an innocent who has done some dumb thing or not he is responsible for placing himself in danger. There are ways to do the job of a journalist without creating situations that place yourself as an imminent threat. Next.
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See you have jumped into the drone club too , any proof ?
 
oneworld2 said:
The same Israeli that said he was flying a drone was the same Israeli that said he was a terrorist. Pictures of him said to have been taken before he got shot show him to be using a camera and not flying a drone. Thus far Israel has offered ZERO proof that he was a Hamas commander.The IDF has also not claimed that he was flying a drone



https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-wont-confirm-defense-ministers-claim-of-killed-journalists-drone/

Thus far all you have offered is unsubstantiated Israeli propaganda from a man noted for making claims that the IDF themselves haven't been able to back up

From the same article......



Be honest Jack , you obviously don't care about the truth ( you could have found out all of the above for yourself , easily ) ,
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"All of the above" is irrelevant, so I haven't spent time on it. He operated a drone near deployed troops; that got him killed. He could be a terrorist or a journalist or a traveling salesman and it would not matter one bit. His own actions caused his death. US forces would have acted the same way, as would Russian, British, French, etc.
 
Jack Hays said:
"All of the above" is irrelevant, so I haven't spent time on it. He operated a drone near deployed troops; that got him killed. He could be a terrorist or a journalist or a traveling salesman and it would not matter one bit. His own actions caused his death. US forces would have acted the same way, as would Russian, British, French, etc.
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Proof of whether he was actually operating a drone isn't irrelevant if you are claiming that that is the reason he was shot or deserved to be shot .

Be honest you have no proof and are just parroting the words of someone who has made other , as yet , unconfirmed allegations against the man. And as I showed you earlier the man has form for making allegations that the army don't seem to be able to substantiate.

Where's the proof of your claim ?
 
oneworld2 said:
It doesn't matter if he was wearing a Bugs Bunny onesy at the time he was shot , he obviously didn't pose an imminent and mortal threat to whoever shot him on the Israeli side seeing as he is said to have been unarmed , hundreds of yards away from them with a fence between them to boot .
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I am afraid you are missing the point...
 
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