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Palestinian Journalist Fatally Shot While Covering Gaza Protest [W:13]

Thank you, Serenity. That appears to be the same article. To be sure, it definitely has a bias, or it sure seems like it to me.



Your personal opinion is reasonable except that, if his intent is to vilify Israel defense forces as cold blooded murderers of an innocent man, him being at the funeral actually harms that narrative.

As far as evidence, I don’t really feel I have any reason to assume Israeli officials are lying.

In the articles quoted, there are different statements from Israeli Officials. Lieberman is saying the journalist was a Hamas militant. This has not yet been substantiated. Israel's military said it is still investigating and was not able to confirm Lieberman's claims.

When the investigations are completed is a better time to be going into further detail. I don't hold the position that the Israeli Military would deliberately target a simple member of the press. I also don't hold the position that all Palestinians (or anyone else in Gaza for that matter) are militants and that it's okay just to automatically assume they are when there are conflicting versions surrounding the death that have not been verified.

The reality is X, things are so much more complex over there than a two minute mention on the evening news or a few paragraph long article will ever be able to portray.
 
In the articles quoted, there are different statements from Israeli Officials. Lieberman is saying the journalist was a Hamas militant. This has not yet been substantiated. Israel's military said it is still investigating and was not able to confirm Lieberman's claims.

When the investigations are completed is a better time to be going into further detail. I don't hold the position that the Israeli Military would deliberately target a simple member of the press. I also don't hold the position that all Palestinians (or anyone else in Gaza for that matter) are militants and that it's okay just to automatically assume they are when there are conflicting versions surrounding the death that have not been verified.

The reality is X, things are so much more complex over there than a two minute mention on the evening news or a few paragraph long article will ever be able to portray.

I can agree with that but I also don't think it's ok, either, to automatically assume Israel must be engaged in conspiracy/coverup when there are conflicting versions surrounding the death. There's always going to be controversy surrounding any action Israel takes because of the way Hamas operates.

Yes, I agree things are complex. I would love it if Israel had irrefutable evidence of the guy's connections to Hamas that they could share with the world. The problem, though, is that in matters of national security, stuff like that often cannot be revealed until years later and even if there was this irrefutable proof of terrorists ties, there'd still be people who'd argue that Israel was wrong to shoot him.
 
This case of terrorists being hired as "journalists" isn't new, we saw the same thing in Operation Protective Edge.
 
This case of terrorists being hired as "journalists" isn't new, we saw the same thing in Operation Protective Edge.

Again, is there any evidence that this man was a terrorist?
 
Given their history of lying, terrorism, use of human shields and indifference to civilian casualties the bad faith of Palestinians in dealing with Israel may be assumed.
There is a price to be paid for generations of political blundering and military incompetence. The Palestinians are paying it now. They merit no sympathy.
The words of the late Abba Eban are as true today as when they were uttered: "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."
 
Again, is there any evidence that this man was a terrorist?
here -https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/244201
Arab media outlets described Murtaja, a resident of the southern Gaza city of Khan Yunis, as a “photo journalist”, and said he had been killed by IDF fire.

On Tuesday, however, Israeli security officials pushed back on the claim, telling Walla! News that Murtaja was in fact a long-time member of the Hamas terror group. The sources told Walla! Murtaja held the rank of Neqqib, or Captain, in Hamas.

“For years he served as an officer with the rank of Neqqib in Hamas’ security forces in the Gaza Strip,” the sources said.

“He was an activist who was involved with activities as part of [Hamas’] security apparatus on a daily basis, and provided a great deal of aid for their activities.”

In 2015, Murtaja sought to bring a drone into the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip, with the goal of gathering information for the terror organization. Murtaja maintained ties with Hamas over the years, and large numbers of Hamas members participated in his funeral on Saturday.

Hamas is trying to hide his military identity but we saw in the funeral who are his friends.
 
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here -https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/244201


Hamas is trying to hide his military identity but we saw in the funeral who are his friends.

NO 1:

Arutz Sheva (AKA Israel National News) is a strongly pro-Zionist media organization with a very checkered record for reporting which has been in legal trouble with the Israeli state for almost all of the nearly thirty years it has existed. It started off as a pirate radio station broadcasting in Russian from ships in the Mediterranean and was banned by Israeli authorities for years due to its vehement propaganda. Its chief director was jailed for perjury concerning his testimony about the company's operations at sea. Since then it has been in repeated hot-water with the Israeli Government and the Israeli Supreme Court blocked Kennest legislation which would have absolved the company for its past transgressions. Not a reliable source IMHO.

The article which you cited refers to "sources" but never identifies the sources by type or by name. It also quotes Avigdor Lieberman (the attribution in the text is unclear but the context points to Lieberman) as saying:

"There are no innocent people in the Gaza Strip. There are no protesters there. Hamas has used both journalists and ambulances to carry out terror attacks dozens of times. Whoever flies a drone over IDF forces - we will not take any chances. We warned everyone in advance. We gave warnings in Arabic, Hebrew and English. Whoever endangers his life does so at his own risk.”

There is no differentiation between innocent Palestinians, journalists, protestors, Hamas operatives or terrorists. All are lumped together into one pool of potential enemies of the Israeli state and all are subject to arbitrary and summary killing by Israeli IDF/Security personnel from across the frontier. Just as radical Palestinian terrorists do not differentiate between civilian and military targets attacked in Israel, so now Israel has abandoned any differentiation and nuance in its military/security actions with respect to Gazan Palestinians. Both sides are chasing each other in a downward-spiral of hate, barbarity and inhumanity, so both sides have discredited themselves by their willingness to use lethal violence on any and all who stand in the way of their long-term goals and political projects.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
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NO 1:

Arutz Sheva (AKA Israel National News) is a strongly pro-Zionist media organization with a very checkered record for reporting which has been in legal trouble with the Israeli state for almost all of the nearly thirty years it has existed. It started off as a pirate radio station broadcasting in Russian from ships in the Mediterranean and was banned by Israeli authorities for years due to its vehement propaganda. Its chief director was jailed for perjury concerning his testimony about the company's operations at sea. Since then it has been in repeated hot-water with the Israeli Government and the Israeli Supreme Court blocked Kennest legislation which would have absolved the company for its past transgressions. Not a reliable source IMHO.

The article which you cited refers to "sources" but never identifies the sources by type or by name. It also quotes Avigdor Lieberman (the attribution in the text is unclear but the context points to Lieberman) as saying:



There is no differentiation between innocent Palestinians, journalists, protestors, Hamas operatives or terrorists. All are lumped together into one pool of potential enemies of the Israeli state and all are subject to arbitrary and summary killing by Israeli IDF/Security personnel from across the frontier. Just as radical Palestinian terrorists do not differentiate between civilian and military targets attacked in Israel, so now Israel has abandoned any differentiation and nuance in its military/security actions with respect to Gazan Palestinians. Both sides are chasing each other in a downward-spiral of hate, barbarity and inhumanity, so both sides have discredited themselves by their willingness to use lethal violence on any and all who stand in the way of their long-term goals and political projects.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Evil roddy,

First, Arutz Sheva is citing WallaNews so I guess (I read couple words from your first sentence and skipped to the last) your first half of your post is irrelevant.Next.

As Lieberman said Hamas is funding these protests in purpose to destroy the fence and execute terror attacks. IDF prepared well for these events and warned time and again about reaching the fence. So anyone that want to "protest" near the fence should know that Israel will act like any other country - it will protect it's borders.
 
NO 1:

Arutz Sheva (AKA Israel National News) is a strongly pro-Zionist media organization with a very checkered record for reporting which has been in legal trouble with the Israeli state for almost all of the nearly thirty years it has existed. It started off as a pirate radio station broadcasting in Russian from ships in the Mediterranean and was banned by Israeli authorities for years due to its vehement propaganda. Its chief director was jailed for perjury concerning his testimony about the company's operations at sea. Since then it has been in repeated hot-water with the Israeli Government and the Israeli Supreme Court blocked Kennest legislation which would have absolved the company for its past transgressions. Not a reliable source IMHO.

The article which you cited refers to "sources" but never identifies the sources by type or by name. It also quotes Avigdor Lieberman (the attribution in the text is unclear but the context points to Lieberman) as saying:



There is no differentiation between innocent Palestinians, journalists, protestors, Hamas operatives or terrorists. All are lumped together into one pool of potential enemies of the Israeli state and all are subject to arbitrary and summary killing by Israeli IDF/Security personnel from across the frontier. Just as radical Palestinian terrorists do not differentiate between civilian and military targets attacked in Israel, so now Israel has abandoned any differentiation and nuance in its military/security actions with respect to Gazan Palestinians. Both sides are chasing each other in a downward-spiral of hate, barbarity and inhumanity, so both sides have discredited themselves by their willingness to use lethal violence on any and all who stand in the way of their long-term goals and political projects.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Another attempt to equate Israel with Hamas. An allegation Hamas would, no doubt, approve of.
 
Given their history of lying, terrorism, use of human shields and indifference to civilian casualties the bad faith of Palestinians in dealing with Israe

The exact same can be said about the Israeli side.

You might need to look both ways before you step into the road Jack..................... watch out for that hard truth juggernaut !
 
And what sort of concrete proof are you looking for from a random guy in Canada?
Unless you have concrete proof, stop defending a dead terrorist and running obstruction for a terrorist organization which leverages press protections to hide its active combatants.

Come on , you can't have it both ways.

You cannot claim that the man was a " Hamas commander " , no less , and then shrug your shoulders when someone asks you to provide some evidence to back up that claim and then choose to distance yourself from it only to , in the very next sentence , restate the claim.

( diplomatic mode )

How do you expect to be taken seriously with such inconsistency ?
 
The exact same can be said about the Israeli side.

You might need to look both ways before you step into the road Jack..................... watch out for that hard truth juggernaut !

Irony
 
I can't open the link X, it's behind a survey question that you have to answer before going any further.

I googled the title "Israel says slain Gaza journalist was Hamas militant" - here's a link from ABC News




Regarding Haniyeh



My personal opinion? The attendance of Haniyeh doesn't surprise me at all and I'd suggest that it's far from a sign of respect. Hamas have always been happy to use Palestinians as pawns in their stupid games, why would the death of this man be anything different? Haniyeh couldn't give a rats arse about this mans death and his only interest is that he was killed by Israeli gunfire, (there is to date no evidence that the man was a militant) and he will trample all over his corpse to milk whatever he can from the incident.

The good point is that you have the sense to at least require some evidence before deciding for yourself whether there is any validity in Lieberman's claim about Mr Murtaja's status with regards to any Hamas membership

The bad point is that you only seem to have time for criticism for Haniyeh's attendance of his funeral and not Lieberman's , up to now , unsubstantiated slurring of the dead man himself. Must be extremely hurtful for his family


Pity really but enlightening at the same time. Thx
 

Not in the least. A little research and you could find out as much for yourself. The problem seems to be that you don't want to know
 
Evil roddy,

First, Arutz Sheva is citing WallaNews so I guess (I read couple words from your first sentence and skipped to the last) your first half of your post is irrelevant.Next.

As Lieberman said Hamas is funding these protests in purpose to destroy the fence and execute terror attacks. IDF prepared well for these events and warned time and again about reaching the fence. So anyone that want to "protest" near the fence should know that Israel will act like any other country - it will protect it's borders.

NO 1:

You linked to an Arutz Sheva story, not me, so the critique stands. Walla! is closely tied to the Netenyahus through strong but informal links through its board of directors to the Likud establishment, so there is allegedly more grounds for skepticism there too.

That Hamas has a role in these protests is not denied. But the important point being ignored or deflected about the Great March of Return movement is that many other non-militant grass-root groups in Gaza have organised and are backing this movement too and thus challenging Hamas' traditional near-monopoly on dissent in Gaza since their ascendency to power in 2006. That scares Hamas and that also scares parts of the Israeli establishment too, because it is a lot easier to vilify, demonise, dehumanise and thus violently oppress a Gaza led by a militant organisation like Hamas than it would be to oppress a widespread resistance movement rooted in non-violent but fully confrontational civil society. The only way Israel can prevent or hinder an effective civil society based protest movement in Gaza from emerging is to use draconian measures and lethal force to provoke more Gazans into the arms of Hamas by radicalising them so that they can be demonised and thus crushed and kept in check by force. If protests and protesters become too legitimate looking to the wider world, Israel will become effectively disarmed and far more toothless in combating Palestinian resistance. Israel fears a Mahatma Gandhi emerging among the Palestinians far more than a modern day Nur al-Din or a Baybars.

But Gazan youth are waking up to the failure of their grandfathers' and fathers' generation of violent resistance and are beginning to understand that cameras, cell phones, drones, flash-mobs, non-centralized command structures, social media, meme culture and peer-to-peer communication with the rest of the world, coupled with obstinate, forceful but non-violent/minimally-violent resistance will threaten Israeli interests far more than sling stones or rockets ever could. Israel has realised this too and is now beginning to target non-violent dissent and resistance as if it was violence through judicial and military "thwarting" of non-violent resistance organisers. A civil and electronic intifada is a far more threatening prospect to Israel than a violent one could ever be.

Thus Israel, in a perverse way, needs Hamas (and Hamas needs Israel) in order to maintain the visceral hate, the cycle of violence and the resultant radicalisation of Gazans so as to marginalise non-violent/less-violent resistance from developing and to prevent the emergence of a legitimate civil society devoted to such resistance. Both Hamas and Israel need to justify the mutual violence which keeps both Gaza and Israel polarised and thus capable of socially acceptable oppression and slaughter, so there can be no room allowed for a third way by each powerful pole in the dispute.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
NO 1:

You linked to an Arutz Sheva story, not me, so the critique stands. Walla! is closely tied to the Netenyahus through strong but informal links through its board of directors to the Likud establishment, so there is allegedly more grounds for skepticism there too.

That Hamas has a role in these protests is not denied. But the important point being ignored or deflected about the Great March of Return movement is that many other non-militant grass-root groups in Gaza have organised and are backing this movement too and thus challenging Hamas' traditional near-monopoly on dissent in Gaza since their ascendency to power in 2006. That scares Hamas and that also scares parts of the Israeli establishment too, because it is a lot easier to vilify, demonise, dehumanise and thus violently oppress a Gaza led by a militant organisation like Hamas than it would be to oppress a widespread resistance movement rooted in non-violent but fully confrontational civil society. The only way Israel can prevent or hinder an effective civil society based protest movement in Gaza from emerging is to use draconian measures and lethal force to provoke more Gazans into the arms of Hamas by radicalising them so that they can be demonised and thus crushed and kept in check by force. If protests and protesters become too legitimate looking to the wider world, Israel will become effectively disarmed and far more toothless in combating Palestinian resistance. Israel fears a Mahatma Gandhi emerging among the Palestinians far more than a modern day Nur al-Din or a Baybars.

But Gazan youth are waking up to the failure of their grandfathers' and fathers' generation of violent resistance and are beginning to understand that cameras, cell phones, drones, flash-mobs, non-centralized command structures, social media, meme culture and peer-to-peer communication with the rest of the world, coupled with obstinate, forceful but non-violent/minimally-violent resistance will threaten Israeli interests far more than sling stones or rockets ever could. Israel has realised this too and is now beginning to target non-violent dissent and resistance as if it was violence through judicial and military "thwarting" of non-violent resistance organisers. A civil and electronic intifada is a far more threatening prospect to Israel than a violent one could ever be.

Thus Israel, in a perverse way, needs Hamas (and Hamas needs Israel) in order to maintain the visceral hate, the cycle of violence and the resultant radicalisation of Gazans so as to marginalise non-violent/less-violent resistance from developing and to prevent the emergence of a legitimate civil society devoted to such resistance. Both Hamas and Israel need to justify the mutual violence which keeps both Gaza and Israel polarised and thus capable of socially acceptable oppression and slaughter, so there can be no room allowed for a third way by each powerful pole in the dispute.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

The same good old clichés with zero valuable logical explanation to follow them.

Israel, a democratic civilized state, does not desire conflict with terror-run Gaza. It doesn't benefit it that Gazan terrorists attack it. It doesn't benefit it that Islamic terror groups control that place. It would benefit it if the Palestinians were peaceful. It would benefit it if the Palestinians would not attack and engage in violence against it, its citizens and soldiers.

To suggest that Palestinians are 'waking up' to the fact that violence doesn't benefit them is misleading. They aren't. They're still violent as ever, violent as we speak, violent in attacking a bordering country, in approaching the border with it by masses and attacking troops and the fence, trying to cross in and commit terrorism and murder against innocent human beings on the other side. They aren't waking up to the benefits of the camera. Palestinian propaganda isn't stronger than ever. It's the same as it's always been. They were always making use of propaganda and lies to fool the world.

Israel desires to protect Israel and as such Israel will protect Israel. The Palestinians desire to commit violence against the Israelis they have dehumanized and as such they will continue to engage in such violence. The anti-Israeli extremists desire to contribute to the Pallywood propaganda campaigns.
 
The good point is that you have the sense to at least require some evidence before deciding for yourself whether there is any validity in Lieberman's claim about Mr Murtaja's status with regards to any Hamas membership

The bad point is that you only seem to have time for criticism for Haniyeh's attendance of his funeral and not Lieberman's , up to now , unsubstantiated slurring of the dead man himself. Must be extremely hurtful for his family


Pity really but enlightening at the same time. Thx

Actually it is your response to her that is enlightening. How dare she say something negative about a Hamas terrorist but not also an Isreali to balance it out. Hamas does not need anyone to like them, they just need people to advance the argument that Isreal is just the same as them. An argument you seem particularly invested in.
 
The exact same can be said about the Israeli side.

You might need to look both ways before you step into the road Jack..................... watch out for that hard truth juggernaut !

For a country regularly threatened with extinction the Israelis have behaved with both dignity and grace. There is no comparison.
 
For a country regularly threatened with extinction the Israelis have behaved with both dignity and grace. There is no comparison.

Not to mention restraint.
 
Given their history of lying, terrorism, use of human shields and indifference to civilian casualties the bad faith of Palestinians in dealing with Israel may be assumed.
There is a price to be paid for generations of political blundering and military incompetence. The Palestinians are paying it now. They merit no sympathy.
The words of the late Abba Eban are as true today as when they were uttered: "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

"Merit no sympathy in your eyes." You're painting with a very wide brush, that's an extreme view Jack and fortunately you don't get to speak for everyone.

It's not impossible to be objective if you see ordinary Palestinian and Israeli lives as worthy. It's clear that some feel that one life is more worthy than the other, but it is not. I am obviously not talking about combatants here, it's actually pretty sad that I even have to mention that, it should go without saying. I am talking about all innocent civilians dead as a result of this conflict. Each innocent life lost is just as worthy as the other.

Now some might be able to convince themselves that a Palestinian or Israeli civilian killed in the on-going conflict is not worth mourning because they are not on their "side" or are considered an "instrument of war", or because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and should be considered collateral damage. They're part of the problem.
 
"Merit no sympathy in your eyes." You're painting with a very wide brush, that's an extreme view Jack and fortunately you don't get to speak for everyone.

It's not impossible to be objective if you see ordinary Palestinian and Israeli lives as worthy. It's clear that some feel that one life is more worthy than the other, but it is not. I am obviously not talking about combatants here, it's actually pretty sad that I even have to mention that, it should go without saying. I am talking about all innocent civilians dead as a result of this conflict. Each innocent life lost is just as worthy as the other.

Now some might be able to convince themselves that a Palestinian or Israeli civilian killed in the on-going conflict is not worth mourning because they are not on their "side" or are considered an "instrument of war", or because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and should be considered collateral damage. They're part of the problem.

Israel has been in a state of perpetual war since the state was founded. Israel's enemies seek not merely its defeat but its extinction. Israel is also the only democracy in a region of dictatorships and the only state in the region (except perhaps Jordan) with any respect at all for human rights. The IDF is the only force in the region that makes any effort to avoid civilian deaths.

The Palestinians are all the things the Israelis are not. Are they all villains? No, of course not, but there's no question of equivalence.

Bottom line: it's war, and the Israelis are very definitely the good guys.
 
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People trying to bum rush the Israeli border. It's called the fog of war. Play stupid games win stupid prizes. Why would the guy be flying a drone over the Israeli troops?


The Israeli military said it does not intentionally target journalists and is looking into the matter. Hours before Murtaja was shot, Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus, a military spokesman, said soldiers employ lethal fire only as a last resort.

"No one gets shot by standing and looking. They are shot after commanders specifically approve it against a specific person or threat," Conricus said.

Late Saturday, Israel's Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman seemed to suggest Murtaja had flown a drone above soldiers when he was shot. He also said Hamas men had dressed up as journalists. He did not provide evidence to back the claims.

"You don't know who is a photographer and who is not," Lieberman said.

https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/04/07/600579223/palestinian-journalist-fatally-shot-while-covering-gaza-protest

Yeah that, again.
Why would anyone not think it stupid to fly a drone in an area as volatile as that?
 
"Merit no sympathy in your eyes." You're painting with a very wide brush, that's an extreme view Jack and fortunately you don't get to speak for everyone.

It's not impossible to be objective if you see ordinary Palestinian and Israeli lives as worthy. It's clear that some feel that one life is more worthy than the other, but it is not. I am obviously not talking about combatants here, it's actually pretty sad that I even have to mention that, it should go without saying. I am talking about all innocent civilians dead as a result of this conflict. Each innocent life lost is just as worthy as the other.

Now some might be able to convince themselves that a Palestinian or Israeli civilian killed in the on-going conflict is not worth mourning because they are not on their "side" or are considered an "instrument of war", or because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and should be considered collateral damage. They're part of the problem.

Palestinians don't seem to agree with you, or they wouldn't do all that:

Comprehensive Listing of Terrorism Victims in Israel
 
Israel has been in a state of perpetual war since the state was founded. Israel's enemies seek not merely its defeat but its extinction. Israel is also the only democracy in a region of dictatorships and the only state in the region (except perhaps Jordan) with any respect at all for human rights. The IDF is the only force in the region that makes any effort to avoid civilian deaths.

The Palestinians are all the things the Israelis are not. Are they all villains? No, of course not, but there's no question of equivalence.

Bottom line: it's war.

There is an equivalence when it comes to loss of civilian lives.

Bottom Line for me: War is a bull**** excuse to just shrug of the death of innocents and it doesn't take away my humanity, irrespective of who is involved. All ordinary civilian lives carry equal worth. A dead Palestinian/Israeli/Australian life is still equal. A dead Palestinian/Israeli/Australian life is still worthy.
 
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