Israeli Defence Forces kill 16 Palestinians and Injure Hundreds in Gaza.[W:169]

The dead and wounded Palestinians were all in Gaza when injured but were gassed and shot nonetheless. Is this acceptable state behaviour in the 21st Century? In my opinion it is not. Not South Africa against striking miners, not in Yemen by Saudis and UAE forces, not in Syria by Turks and not in Gaza/the Occupied Territories by Israel. Israel must be called onto the carpet and sanctioned for using such unnecessary violence against crowds of protestors armed only with protest signs, incendiary Molotov cocktails lobbed at metal security fences, rocks and their own feet. This behaviour is shameful and probably criminal.

Gaza-Israel border: Clashes 'leave 16 Palestinians dead and hundreds injured' - BBC News

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

I would offer a comment but the rules for this (ME-I/P) forum, as they are, do not allow for honest discussion so, no comment ............

Evilroddy said:

Is this acceptable state behaviour in the 21st Century?

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Yes. Every state would be in the right in defending its borders and targeting those who make an attempt to pass the border or actually attack its troops with whatever means. There were molotovs and rocks and there was also live fire by some 4 terrorists using the event to try and carry out a terror attack. Regardless every person who attempts to cross from Gaza into Israeli territory poses an extreme danger as we know from horrible cases of the past and thus the order must be to shoot to kill. It'd be right to protect the borders regardless of what nation is doing the defending, the fact that this one is called Israel doesn't make it wrong and surely doesn't make it a crime but a very expected and called for act of protection against invaders.

Apocalypse said:

Yes. Every state would be in the right in defending its borders and targeting those who make an attempt to pass the border or actually attack its troops with whatever means. There were molotovs and rocks and there was also live fire by some 4 terrorists using the event to try and carry out a terror attack. Regardless every person who attempts to cross from Gaza into Israeli territory poses an extreme danger as we know from horrible cases of the past and thus the order must be to shoot to kill. It'd be right to protect the borders regardless of what nation is doing the defending, the fact that this one is called Israel doesn't make it wrong and surely doesn't make it a crime but a very expected and called for act of protection against invaders.

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There was no danger of the border being crossed as the protest march was never intended to do that. As for rock-throwers, the snipers were dug in hundreds of meters away. Shooting fish in a barrel came to mind, watching. The snipers responded to anyone touching the fence with lethal force. Not a good PR day for the IDF

Manc Skipper said:

There was no danger of the border being crossed as the protest march was never intended to do that. As for rock-throwers, the snipers were dug in hundreds of meters away. Shooting fish in a barrel came to mind, watching. The snipers responded to anyone touching the fence with lethal force. Not a good PR day for the IDF

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Sometimes you need to care less about PR (especially when those who will fall for the propaganda are those who already lie knees deep in it) and more about basic security. In the days prior to this planned campaign organized by the Islamic terrorists from Hamas there were several attempts to breach the border fence by terrorists, some of them were successful, there was no reason to just allow another massacre of innocents by Islamic terrorists just because it will make the IDF look bad in the eyes of the already hateful anti-semitic/Israeli crowds that they shoot people who attack soldiers or try to breach into Israeli territory and are protrayed by Hamas and its supporters as innocent farmers/fishers/whatever.

None of the unarmed civilians were shot outside their boundaries.

All of those killed were either trying to breach or trying to remove parts of the fence.

Apocalypse said:

All of those killed were either trying to breach or trying to remove parts of the fence.

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Nope
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...shot-while-running-away-from-border-1.5962616

The video shows two Palestinians running away from the border towards a large group of protesters. When they are several feet away from the group, a shot is heard, and one of the Palestinians, reporedtly e-Nabi, drops to the ground. A small group gathers around to assist him. According to the committee behind the march, the video "clearly shows e-Nabi poses no threat."

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JANFU said:

Nope
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...shot-while-running-away-from-border-1.5962616

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Actually yes.

The edited footage shows the man who is part of a group running back to the main crowd after doing something on the side of the Israeli fence being shot, what is missing from the footage is what he's done prior to being shot at and whether he was part of those attacking troops with firebombs and rocks or those trying to damage the fence.

Apocalypse said:

Actually yes.

The edited footage shows the man who is part of a group running back to the main crowd after doing something on the side of the Israeli fence being shot, what is missing from the footage is what he's done prior to being shot at and whether he was part of those attacking troops with firebombs and rocks or those trying to damage the fence.

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Actually NOPE
You posted this

Apocalypse said:

All of those killed were either trying to breach or trying to remove parts of the fence.

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I replied NOPE with proof.

You then used this as a rebuttal
View attachment 67230931

JANFU said:

Actually NOPE
You posted this

I replied NOPE with proof.

You then used this as a rebuttal
View attachment 67230931

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All those who were killed were either trying to breach or trying to destroy parts of the fence.
If a person is seen shot after returning with several others from whatever they've done at the fence and being congratulated by the crowds with claps and allahu akbars for whatever he's done there, it doesn't mean he didn't attempt to damage the fence or to breach. It actually makes it more likely that he was shot for a reason.

What you've done is like trying to claim that the sky is blue all of the time while trying to prove it by showing a photo of the skies taken at daytime. Good for you.

Apocalypse said:

All those who were killed were either trying to breach or trying to destroy parts of the fence.
If a person is seen shot after returning with several others from whatever they've done at the fence and being congratulated by the crowds with claps and allahu akbars for whatever he's done there, it doesn't mean he didn't attempt to damage the fence or to breach. It actually makes it more likely that he was shot for a reason.

What you've done is like trying to claim that the sky is blue all of the time while trying to prove it by showing a photo of the skies taken at daytime. Good for you.

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Still jumping thru hops to justify this. Did IDF state what he did?

JANFU said:

Still jumping thru hops to justify this. Did IDF state what he did?

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Not yet. What was stated so far is that 5 of those killed were members of Hamas' military wing of those 2 were members of its so called elite unit.

Apocalypse said:

Not yet. What was stated so far is that 5 of those killed were members of Hamas' military wing of those 2 were members of its so called elite unit.

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I am aware that some were carrying weapons and possibly planting explosives at the fence, but that was at night.
This person was running away. Now I am not anti Israeli- nor a pawn for Palestinians. There are legal shoots and there are those that are not.
This one appears to be not a legal shoot.

Manc Skipper said:

There was no danger of the border being crossed as the protest march was never intended to do that. As for rock-throwers, the snipers were dug in hundreds of meters away. Shooting fish in a barrel came to mind, watching. The snipers responded to anyone touching the fence with lethal force. Not a good PR day for the IDF

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What protest march are you talking about? There was no march, only a large congregation of aggressive Palestinians in one place.

From several short videos, images and various reports on the internet, this is the picture I got from that event:

- There was no march, because there is no road along that part of the border.
- A tent city with very large tents was set up a few days before, and in only one location: a dirt road leading to a certain part of the fence.
- Supplies (no idea what, maybe water and such) were hauled to those tents.
- Plenty of medical staff that was wearing well-marked clothing so as not get shot.
- Trucks were bringing in lunch packages and other supplies.

- Palestinian aggressors were only young men.
- Some women and some children were kept around the tent city.
- Women show up on images for lamenting and whaling when an injured or dead Palestinian was brought in.
- Palestinians are shown using slings to throw items towards the fence.

Conclusion:
another organized march (ha ha ha) where aggressors blame the guys who are on the defense for hurting and - in some cases - killing them.
Another staged confrontation so the world press and the UN can point the finger at Israel ... again.

Manc Skipper said:

None of the unarmed civilians were shot outside their boundaries.

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I guess it depends on your definition of unarmed. There were reportedly petrol bombs, rocks, and live fire from terrorists. And people touching the fence. No word on whether they were touching it with wire cutters or fists.

The IDF snipers now have a death count of 17 dead as far as I know and as many as 900 wounded. According to Palestinian medical authorities about 750 of the wounded were hit with regular ammunition and only about 160 protestors were hit with rubber-coated bullets. Video from the various sites of the protest show protesters being gunned down by snipers while doing nothing but walking and running around. The IDF warned the Palestinians ahead of the protests that it would use live ammunition and admitted that its snipers were not just shooting people involved in violence but were also targeting known organisers and agitators regardless of what they were doing at the time if they were identified by military and security spotters.

Vandalism, stone throwing, arson and disorderly conduct are serious crimes but they are not capital crimes and should not be met with intentional lethal force by military snipers unless the targeted individuals are acting in such a way as to present an imminent and mortal threat to Israeli citizens or military personnel. This was clearly not the case in the vast majority of the 900 alleged shootings by IDF snipers. Civil disobedience and protest should not be capital crimes with summary justice meted out by intelligence officials with targetted kill lists, military spotters and military snipers. If Israel were at war with the Palestinians this would would be a war crime. If Isreal were not at war with the Palestinians this would be a crime against humanity. Israeli military leaders, individual snipers and spotters and Israeli political leaders who ordered this policy to be enacted must be held legally accountable for such acts done by the IDF and the Israeli security establishment.

https://theintercept.com/2018/03/30/israel-gaza-march-killed-protest/

Cheers?
Evilroddy.

jimbo said:

I guess it depends on your definition of unarmed. There were reportedly petrol bombs, rocks, and live fire from terrorists. And people touching the fence. No word on whether they were touching it with wire cutters or fists.

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Just no evidence of any of the claimed weapons reaching, let alone injuring a single IDF member.

Manc Skipper said:

Just no evidence of any of the claimed weapons reaching, let alone injuring a single IDF member.

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I don't believe you actually have to be dead before firing back.

JANFU said:

I am aware that some were carrying weapons and possibly planting explosives at the fence, but that was at night.
This person was running away. Now I am not anti Israeli- nor a pawn for Palestinians. There are legal shoots and there are those that are not.
This one appears to be not a legal shoot.

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Appears being a key word.
If this were to happen in some town and be a case of a police officer shooting some thief running away from arrest then sure it would not be a legitimate killing.
However it's not the case. It happened in a place where live fire was used against Israeli troops by the attackers and petrol bombs were thrown at them and the fence was repeatedly being approached by people trying to breach it and cut holes in it so to allow terror attacks. If he was returning from such 'operation' then it is a legitimate kill, the fact he doesn't pose a threat while he's turning his back does not mean he shouldn't be targeted.

Manc Skipper said:

Just no evidence of any of the claimed weapons reaching, let alone injuring a single IDF member.

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And as always when you make the claim that Israelis didn't die I will reply with; is that a bad thing?

As to the weapons:

And as usual, the MSM gives us no background info, except for "during clashes at the Gaza strip, Israelis killed 14/15/16/17 (numbers vary) Palestinians.

The tent city was intriguing to me, to say the least, so I dug a little further on the internet and came across some reports that Israel announced more defense actions.
More?!? That means, this story is not done and over with.

So, I started reading the English pro-Palestine sites and found that The Intercept had the most clear definition of what is going on at that particular piece of the fence:

"... According to plans first sketched out on Facebook by the independent Gazan activist Ahmed Abu Artema, the rally on Friday marked the start of a six-week campaign, called The Great Return March, intended to culminate on May 15, as Israel celebrates its 70th birthday and Palestinians mourn the Nakba, or “Catastrophe,” in which hundreds of thousands were driven from what would become the state of Israel.

... As part of the campaign, the writer Enas Fares Ghannam explained on the Gazan website We Are Not Numbers, “Palestinian refugees living in Gaza will set up tents near the border and move gradually — and peacefully — closer.” ..."

https://theintercept.com/2018/03/30/israel-gaza-march-killed-protest/



In other words, "peaceful" invasion of Israel.

SIXTEEN dead over 700 wounded. Nobody set foot outside Gaza.

Your post states that the Palestinians would "move gradually closer."

This copied from a NYT article about an interview with Moshe Dayan, the eye patch wearing former Israeli Defense Minister:

General Dayan interrupted: ''Never mind that. After all, I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let's talk about 80 percent. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance farther, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was.''

The remarks are about the Golan Heights and the 1967 Arab/Israel War. Move closer to provoke the enemy?

Aw, too bad there weren't more dead, more seriously wounded. The more the merrier.

And Today's winner for the martyr of the day is .......... :lamo