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Israeli Defence Forces kill 16 Palestinians and Injure Hundreds in Gaza.[W:169]

dirtpoorchris said:
If UN gave ALL of Gaza to Israel it would only be 20 years before they started taking more. And building settlements outside Gaza.
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Good point. When Ariel Sharon tried to extend an olive branch in 2005 by giving part of Gaza back to the Palestinians, they responded to his move with violence. The Gazans are their own worst enemies.
 
HowardBThiname said:
Good point. When Ariel Sharon tried to extend an olive branch in 2005 by giving part of Gaza back to the Palestinians, they responded to his move with violence. The Gazans are their own worst enemies.
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Would you say maybe 20% wanted to fight and 80% wanted peace? And then Israel decided to contest with the 20% instead of working with the 80%?
 
Evilroddy said:
Israel is now threatening to undertake retaliatory strikes against and targeted killings of Palestinian organisers and activists inside all of Gaza if the Land Day protests and Border marchers/campers don't stop their activity and disperse. Military use of lethal force to suppress a political movement is the social war which Israelis were discussing two years ago when they decided that even political opposition to the Israeli political project was justified in the wake of the BDS movement's success at hurting Israel's economy and reputation. This is violent state oppression pure and simple.

Palestinians' 'gather' 'anew' 'as' 'Israel' 'threatens' 'to' 'step' 'up' 'Gaza' 'response' '-' 'France' '24

Gaza-Israel violence: Israel warns of action inside Gaza - BBC News

Cheers?
Evilroddy.
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Happy Easter

Jesus-rose-to-life.jpg
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Would you say maybe 20% wanted to fight and 80% wanted peace? And then Israel decided to contest with the 20% instead of working with the 80%?
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I would say that's probably a bit low. Keep in mind that Gazans actually ELECTED Hamas (a known terrorist organization) to govern them.

Unfortunately, when the violent portion of the population want to fight, that's more than enough to start a conflict. Sadly, the ones who want peace typically cower in the background. They don't confront the violent ones, so the terrorists reign supreme.

And, when they try to breach Israel's security, as they've been doing the past few days -- and intend to do for another 6 weeks -- their actions will trigger a response from Israel.

It's the Gazan's fault. They simply cannot get along -- their hatred is so strong and overpowering.

The ones who want peace don't stand a chance.
 
Evilroddy said:
Fledermaus:

Why?; because the Palestinian leadership and many Palestinians don't recognise the legitimacy of the border which the fences (and in other areas the walls represent) and they also question the legitimacy the state which created such barriers since 1947 and 1967. These are political questions and not an existential threat to Israel which is by far the strongest military regional super-power in the Levant. But that is really not the point. The key point is that Israel is using disproportionate force to impose its political will on the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories and to break their will to defy Israeli power. As an occupier it has certain responsibilities to the population which it has occupied. It is not living up to those responsibilities.

Israel is killing people for publicly defying its definition of what Israel is and who can live on land both in and around Israel. Israel has a right to militarily defend its frontiers from military attack or terrorist infiltration but it does not have a right to wantonly kill people outside of Israel for just any reason Israeli planners care to come up with. The dehumanising of the whole of the Palestinian population into de facto potential terrorists and attackers and then acting with lethal force on those assumptions is what allows the Israelis to get away with this mass murder time and again since the 1920's. The fact that the Israeli Defence Forces admitted that they were spotting and targeting agitators and instigators with lethal force near and around the fence protest camps and is now apparently threatening to widen such killings and lethal force to all of Gaza is really just Israel killing for political reasons and is not Israel defending against security threats along its frontiers.

Israel is not living up to its responsibilities as a military occupier of a conquered people in a conquered land which have been in place since 1945. It is behaving illegally and disproportionately towards an occupied population which is desperately challenging its legitimacy and power over their lives. While such challenges are a certainly a serious problem for Israel, killing folks who express such defiance through public protest is not cool, nor legal by modern-day international standards.

Palestinians, despite the dehumanising propaganda and the blanket jingoistic condemnations to the contrary, are human beings with basic human rights and international protections in the post-WWII world.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Why don't they recognize the international border of a sovereign state? They don't have maps? They didn't get the memo?

Gaza was not Palestinian in 1948-1967. It was Egyptian occupied territory.

You still have not explained the WHY. The border fence is Israeli property. Why don't the Palestinians use they energies to improve Gaza rather than waste their energies and their lives attacking Israeli people and property?


Palestine owns Gaza now. It is the first time the territory truly belong to the Palestinians.

And what do they do? Launch thousands of mortar and rockets into Israel then cry foul when they get slapped down. They assault Isreali territory and cry when people get hurt.


They are playing "Dialing for Martyrs" and you are lapping it up...
 
Aristaeus said:
Why do they do it? I guess they're protesting at the illegal occupation of their land.
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Who's land? There have never been a Palestinian people, no Palestinian language, culture or currency, no Palestinian anything until an Egyptian, Arafat, created them in his mind. A flight of fantasy. The refugees are mostly descended from the poorest of Egyptians and Syrians, imported into the mandate by the British for cheap labor. And not wanted back by either country. Gaza was under the control of Egypt until Israel took it as spoils of a war the Egyptians started.
 
HowardBThiname said:
This has gone on for 70 years now -- 70 years!
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No, this has been ongoing for thousands of years, and it is arrogant to think anyone can put an end to violent confrontations in the mideast. If the Jews weren't available, the muslims would all be busy killing each other. Excuse me, they are busy killing each other.
 
OldFatGuy said:
No, this has been ongoing for thousands of years, and it is arrogant to think anyone can put an end to violent confrontations in the mideast. If the Jews weren't available, the muslims would all be busy killing each other. Excuse me, they are busy killing each other.
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That made me chuckle -- not because killing is amusing -- but because your comment is so true. Yet, many are unwilling to admit it.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Would you say maybe 20% wanted to fight and 80% wanted peace? And then Israel decided to contest with the 20% instead of working with the 80%?
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As Israel withdrew from Gaza, the first thing the refugees did was to destroy the greenhouses the Israelis left for their benefit, so they could grow their own food. Prove your estimated percentages, until then I will consider you a blatant propagandist liar, nothing more.
 
OldFatGuy said:
As Israel withdrew from Gaza, the first thing the refugees did was to destroy the greenhouses the Israelis left for their benefit, so they could grow their own food. Prove your estimated percentages, until then I will consider you a blatant propagandist liar, nothing more.
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I have no idea what the percents are that's why i proposed it as a question. Why are you so mad at people for asking questions?
 
Fledermaus said:
Why don't they recognize the international border of a sovereign state? They don't have maps? They didn't get the memo?

Gaza was not Palestinian in 1948-1967. It was Egyptian occupied territory.

You still have not explained the WHY. The border fence is Israeli property. Why don't the Palestinians use they energies to improve Gaza rather than waste their energies and their lives attacking Israeli people and property?


Palestine owns Gaza now. It is the first time the territory truly belong to the Palestinians.

And what do they do? Launch thousands of mortar and rockets into Israel then cry foul when they get slapped down. They assault Isreali territory and cry when people get hurt.


They are playing "Dialing for Martyrs" and you are lapping it up...
Click to expand...

Fledermaus:

I did answer the why in the first three lines of my previous response to you. You may not like or accept the answer but you can not ignore its existence. You claim the border fence is Israeli property but that is exactly the point that the Palestinians reject. They do not recognise the right of Israel to erect barriers on land which they claim as their own. Maps convey information which the map makers intend to convey and are thus subjective and not objective sources. If you reject the map makers assumptions, then you reject the map too. So whose maps to consult? "What are the accepted borders of Israel?", is a subjective question based on your outlook about the competing authorities of the Israeli state and the Palestinian people and also international claims by third parties. Maps mean nothing to people bent on liberation or conquest except as tools upon which to base justifying propaganda and partisan claims.

There is no doubt that Israel has the military might to enforce its claims over and above those of the Palestinians who contest those claims with Israel. The question is, "Is that a legitimate course of action?", as others have claimed here. The world changed after WWI with President Wilson's bold but highly problematic and much-ballyhooed right of self determination for post-colonial peoples. It changed again with the end of WWII and the universal declaration and recognition of basic human rights and basic state responsibilities to guarantee and protect those rights. Why has no one been successful in mobilising the world to fulfil the duty to protect the Palestinian people from legal and military oppression from both Israeli and Palestinian masters? The answer is propaganda and the insidious dehumanising of the greater Palestinian people who can either be compliant in being victimised by others or are condemned and killed as violent extremists for standing up for their own individual and collective rights as human beings and a post-colonial people/nation. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
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Evilroddy said:
Fledermaus:

I did answer the why in the first three lines of my previous response to you. You may not like or accept the answer but you can not ignore its existence. You claim the border fence is Israeli property but that is exactly the point that the Palestinians reject. They do not recognise the right of Israel to erect barriers on land which they claim as their own. Maps convey information which the map makers intend to convey and are thus subjective and not objective sources. If you reject the map makers assumptions, then you reject the map too. So whose maps to consult? "What are the accepted borders of Israel?", is a subjective question based on your outlook about the competing authorities of the Israeli state and the Palestinian people and also international claims by third parties. Maps mean nothing to people bent on liberation or conquest except as tools upon which to base justifying propaganda and partisan claims.

There is no doubt that Israel has the military might to enforce its claims over and above those of the Palestinians who contest those claims with Israel. The question is, "Is that a legitimate course of action?", as others have claimed here. The world changed after WWI with President Wilson's bold but highly problematic and much-ballyhooed right of self determination for post-colonial peoples. It changed again with the end of WWII and the universal declaration and recognition of basic human rights and basic state responsibilities to guarantee and protect those rights. Why has no one been successful in mobilising the world to fulfil the duty to protect the Palestinian people from legal and military oppression from both Israeli and Palestinian masters? The answer is propaganda and the insidious dehumanising of the greater Palestinian people who can either be compliant in being victimised by others or are condemned and killed as violent extremists for standing up for their own individual and collective rights as human beings and a post-colonial people/nation. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Did Palestine agree to the 1947-1948 partition?

No.

Lay the blame there.

And if the US launched thousands of rockets and mortars into Canada, would that be an act of war or a legitimate response to perceived wrongs done by the Canadian government....
 
dirtpoorchris said:
I have no idea what the percents are that's why i proposed it as a question. Why are you so mad at people for asking questions?
Click to expand...

A question mark does not make a question when one poses false numbers as a predicate to a response.

Had you posed an honest query such as "What percentage wanted to fight as opposed to those wanted peace?" you would have received a less belligerent response. You already knew that. You flung out bait and got bit by the dog who took the bait.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
That sounds like terrorism. Targeting their political leaders if they dont stop protesting.
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How many ISIS leaders were targeted and killed during the last six months?
 
dirtpoorchris said:
If UN gave ALL of Gaza to Israel it would only be 20 years before they started taking more. And building settlements outside Gaza.
Click to expand...

Show me your crystal ball, I'll show you my magic 8 ball.
 
Evilroddy said:
Fledermaus:

Why?; because the Palestinian leadership and many Palestinians don't recognise the legitimacy of the border which the fences (and in other areas the walls represent) and they also question the legitimacy the state which created such barriers since 1947 and 1967. These are political questions and not an existential threat to Israel which is by far the strongest military regional super-power in the Levant. But that is really not the point. The key point is that Israel is using disproportionate force to impose its political will on the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories and to break their will to defy Israeli power. As an occupier it has certain responsibilities to the population which it has occupied. It is not living up to those responsibilities.

Israel is killing people for publicly defying its definition of what Israel is and who can live on land both in and around Israel. Israel has a right to militarily defend its frontiers from military attack or terrorist infiltration but it does not have a right to wantonly kill people outside of Israel for just any reason Israeli planners care to come up with. The dehumanising of the whole of the Palestinian population into de facto potential terrorists and attackers and then acting with lethal force on those assumptions is what allows the Israelis to get away with this mass murder time and again since the 1920's. The fact that the Israeli Defence Forces admitted that they were spotting and targeting agitators and instigators with lethal force near and around the fence protest camps and is now apparently threatening to widen such killings and lethal force to all of Gaza is really just Israel killing for political reasons and is not Israel defending against security threats along its frontiers.

Israel is not living up to its responsibilities as a military occupier of a conquered people in a conquered land which have been in place since 1945. It is behaving illegally and disproportionately towards an occupied population which is desperately challenging its legitimacy and power over their lives. While such challenges are a certainly a serious problem for Israel, killing folks who express such defiance through public protest is not cool, nor legal by modern-day international standards.

Palestinians, despite the dehumanising propaganda and the blanket jingoistic condemnations to the contrary, are human beings with basic human rights and international protections in the post-WWII world.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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That's quite the time spent on typing such wall of text just to promote the idea that terrorists should be allowed to invade Israeli territory without it reacting and protecting its citizens and sovereignty like it should.
 
Fledermaus said:
Did Palestine agree to the 1947-1948 partition?

No.

Lay the blame there.

And if the US launched thousands of rockets and mortars into Canada, would that be an act of war or a legitimate response to perceived wrongs done by the Canadian government....
Click to expand...

Fledermaus:

Regarding attacks by Americans on Canadian soil, ask the Fenians of the 19th Century about that or American posses and cavalry which regularly crossed into Canadian territory in pursuit of Native Americans and fugitives. Palestine is not a state and therefore cannot wage state-war in the Westphalian sense. Armed groups and terrorists do operate from Palestinian controlled areas and Israel has a legitimate right to use force to combat or pre-empt such attacks. But extending such attacks to the whole Palestinian population, irrespective of whether they themselves are engaged in violent attacks against the Israeli state, is not legitimate despite the recent pronouncements of Israeli ministers like Yisrael Katz and Aryeh Deri, to name but a few. Trying to justify the killing of civilians who are engaging in protests by painting such behaviour as terrorism is dishonest and smacks of massacres like the Sikhs at the Golden Temple of Amritsar by British Colonial troops. Using the military, intelligence, legal and immigration organs of the Israeli state to crush dissent and protest in a "civil thwarting" of dissent is wrong too.

Just two days after the most recent massacre of Palestinians in Gaza, along the same region of the fence where the killings occurred last Friday the IDF detected and captured an unarmed Palestinian trying to infiltrate from Gaza into Israel. They arrested him and handed him over to the Shin Bet for questioning, without any excessive violence. That's how the IDF should conduct themselves in such circumstances, not by shooting people using concealed snipers on the look out for known agitators to kill and not by picking off Palestinian farmers working their fields with tank or AFV rounds as happened either Thursday night or Friday before the Land Day March of Return got started.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Apocalypse said:
That's quite the time spent on typing such wall of text just to promote the idea that terrorists should be allowed to invade Israeli territory without it reacting and protecting its citizens and sovereignty like it should.
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Apocalypse:

The exclusion zone, the no-go zone and much of the double fencing along the Gaza-Israel frontier is located not in Israel but in Gaza. The Gaza. people near or at the outer fences were in Gaza and not Israel. So Israeli sovereignty was not being breached by any protestor who was unable to get through the frontier fences.

By painting any Palestinian who protests Israeli abuses as terrorists regardless of whether they are using violence you are demonising and dehumanising all Palestinians for the actions of their militant armed minority and are lowering the political and ethical barriers which prevent the Israeli state from killing more Palestinians wantonly. Killing unarmed and retreating people without judicial review is not an acceptable path to legitimate rule in any territory, yours or theirs.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
The dead and wounded Palestinians were all in Gaza when injured but were gassed and shot nonetheless. Is this acceptable state behaviour in the 21st Century? In my opinion it is not. Not South Africa against striking miners, not in Yemen by Saudis and UAE forces, not in Syria by Turks and not in Gaza/the Occupied Territories by Israel. Israel must be called onto the carpet and sanctioned for using such unnecessary violence against crowds of protestors armed only with protest signs, incendiary Molotov cocktails lobbed at metal security fences, rocks and their own feet. This behaviour is shameful and probably criminal.

Gaza-Israel border: Clashes 'leave 16 Palestinians dead and hundreds injured' - BBC News

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Well if Israel would just agree to not exist this would all go away.
 
Evilroddy said:
Fledermaus:

Regarding attacks by Americans on Canadian soil, ask the Fenians of the 19th Century about that or American posses and cavalry which regularly crossed into Canadian territory in pursuit of Native Americans and fugitives. Palestine is not a state and therefore cannot wage state-war in the Westphalian sense. Armed groups and terrorists do operate from Palestinian controlled areas and Israel has a legitimate right to use force to combat or pre-empt such attacks. But extending such attacks to the whole Palestinian population, irrespective of whether they themselves are engaged in violent attacks against the Israeli state, is not legitimate despite the recent pronouncements of Israeli ministers like Yisrael Katz and Aryeh Deri, to name but a few. Trying to justify the killing of civilians who are engaging in protests by painting such behaviour as terrorism is dishonest and smacks of massacres like the Sikhs at the Golden Temple of Amritsar by British Colonial troops. Using the military, intelligence, legal and immigration organs of the Israeli state to crush dissent and protest in a "civil thwarting" of dissent is wrong too.

Just two days after the most recent massacre of Palestinians in Gaza, along the same region of the fence where the killings occurred last Friday the IDF detected and captured an unarmed Palestinian trying to infiltrate from Gaza into Israel. They arrested him and handed him over to the Shin Bet for questioning, without any excessive violence. That's how the IDF should conduct themselves in such circumstances, not by shooting people using concealed snipers on the look out for known agitators to kill and not by picking off Palestinian farmers working their fields with tank or AFV rounds as happened either Thursday night or Friday before the Land Day March of Return got started.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Why would I ask people long dead about whether or not the US launching thousands of rockets and mortars into Canada would be seen as an act of war or a legitimate response to perceived wrongs done by the Canadian government?

I am asking you.

And there is a Palestinian state, least according to Palestine and recognized by 136 UN member states...

And the elected Gaza government has given free reign to rocket and mortar teams.... At least until the ceasefire agreement between the two states...
 
Evilroddy said:
Apocalypse:

The exclusion zone, the no-go zone and much of the double fencing along the Gaza-Israel frontier is located not in Israel but in Gaza. The Gaza. people near or at the outer fences were in Gaza and not Israel. So Israeli sovereignty was not being breached by any protestor who was unable to get through the frontier fences.

By painting any Palestinian who protests Israeli abuses as terrorists regardless of whether they are using violence you are demonising and dehumanising all Palestinians for the actions of their militant armed minority and are lowering the political and ethical barriers which prevent the Israeli state from killing more Palestinians wantonly. Killing unarmed and retreating people without judicial review is not an acceptable path to legitimate rule in any territory, yours or theirs.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims is OK if you are Palestinian and we dare not call it terrorism...

Now what is the definition of terrorism again?
 
chuckiechan said:
Well if Israel would just agree to not exist this would all go away.
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Actually, if Israel agreed to exist within the 1967 borders, this would all go away.. the 1967 borders give Israel more land than the original mandate gave them, so they still win.

Fact is Netanyahu is opposed to a two-state solution, and therefore peace.
 
HowardBThiname said:
I would say that's probably a bit low. Keep in mind that Gazans actually ELECTED Hamas (a known terrorist organization) to govern them.
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Just some further information on that one point.

The Palestinian Authority held elections across the West Bank and Gaza for the Palestinian legislature in 2006. It's important to note that since 2006, now 12 years later, there have been no official democratic elections in the Gaza Strip and only the top few Hamas Officials get to make political decisions in Gaza. The vast majority of Palestinians did not vote for Hamas because of its political goals but because of their desire to rid the Palestinian Authority of corruption, a theme Hamas campaigned on. Hamas won a slight majority.

Some further details;

1. Hamas ("Change and Reform" list) won 44.4% of the vote while Fatah won 41.5%
2. Voters' expectations: Reform Palestian governmental institutions (81%); improve internal security (80%); improve economic conditions (78%); promote democracy (77%); resumption of negotiations with Israel (68%); ease of [Gaza] closure (62%); Israeli withdrawal: 43%
3. Biggest reasons for those who voted for Hamas not Fatah: Ending corruption: 43%; religious reasons: 19%; [Hamas'] political agenda: 12%
4. Expectations following the election results: 74% didn't expect Hamas to win an overwhelming majority; 67% expected a Hamas-led government would commit to negotiations with Israel

In short, Palestinian voters voted more as a rejection of Fatah's performance than an embrace of Hamas' radical agenda. In fact, they expected that a Hamas-led government would commit to negotiations with Israel. What one witnessed was a tendency among voters to choose against an ineffectual government while transposing their hopes and expectations on the side they supported. Instead, there was a large gap between Hamas' unyielding rejection of peace with Israel and the voters' expectations that the group would pursue a more moderate course.

Hamas then refused to recognize Israel or respect past Palestinian agreements with Israel while in government. Hamas fought a civil war with Fatah as a result of this and de facto seceded from the PA to govern Gaza independently. Subsequent elections have repeatedly been postponed. 44% of the population of Gaza are under 14 years of age so that means that the eldest was only 2 when they came into power and that hundreds of thousand of other kids there weren't even born. They've never had a say in the matter. Their only crime was to be born into that ****hole.

Pawns in the never ending games that Hamas play. That is a crying shame.
 
Aristaeus said:
Actually, if Israel agreed to exist within the 1967 borders, this would all go away.. the 1967 borders give Israel more land than the original mandate gave them, so they still win.

Fact is Netanyahu is opposed to a two-state solution, and therefore peace.
Click to expand...

Face it, the people you support want a one state solution, with the Jews driven into the sea. The Mandate gave Israel nothing. The UN voted on partition agreement approving a division of the Palestinian Protectorate into two sovereign nations, Israel for Jews, Jordan for muslims, and approved the borders between the two.

Fact is this will never go away unless Israel is destroyed as a nation. At every opportunity, Israel agreed to a two state solution and peace, and the opposition said no. Now, Israel also says no. They won't negotiate with people who offer no good faith, and why should they?

These are the same people who now say the US committing terrorism by reducing their aid package from the US. We are the bad guys because we will no longer give them their extortion funds. For those who don't remember, Arafat agreed to suspend all PLO terrorist activity against the US in exchange for monetary aid, aid he and his pocketed in Swiss bank accounts, Lichtenstein bank accounts and Corsican bank accounts.
 
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