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UN Jerusalem vote: US 'will be taking names'

Fledermaus said:
Until the Palestinians decided to go to war in 1948-49.

What the Israelis didn't take the Jordanians and Egyptians took.

There was no Palestine until Gaza was ceded to the Palestinians.
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The Palestinians didn't go to war. Other Arab countries seized their dirt and fought with the Jews for other dirt.

The civilians fled the fighting as civilians always do.

They just weren't allowed to come back.

The conflation of native civilians and the actions of state actors are nothing but a clever tool to displace those civilians from their homes.

Another justification is that other Arabs in other countries threw Jews out so it was okay to throw local Arabs put of their homes.

Pretty shoddy way to treat your fellow man.
 
Beaudreaux said:
Sometimes doing the right thing means you have to step up, and stand alone. The US has, until now, placated the ME Islamists in an attempt to foment peace in the region. That didn't work, and by all evidence will never work. Each government of each sovereign nation has the right to declare their own capital city. All the US did was to recognize what the sovereign government of Israel has determined is their own capital city. Brazil moved their capital to the middle of the Amazon into a new city that didn't even exist before it was declared to exist. The US moved it's capital a number of times before the Congress named the District of Columbia the capital. No one has told Brazil, or the US, that they cannot have their capital city where they want it to be located.

I fully understand the turmoil and disagreements between the plethora of Abrahamic and other religious sects that lay claim to portions or all of the City of Jerusalem. This is a political move by the US, not a religious move. Just because certain religious sects can't see it as anything but a religious question, doesn't mean that the US should continue to ignore political fact in an attempt to mollify sectarian forces that to date, have ignored every overture of peace and refused numerous attempts to establish a two state solution.

Doing the right thing is not defined or gauged by agreeing with and going along with everyone else. If there were any realistic chance, that the differing factions could come to a peace accord, then I would say let this recognition and movement of the embassy stand to the side until after the peace process is concluded. There's no evidence that that will ever occur, much less that it's anywhere near being achieved now or in the last 50+ years of my lifetime.

Sometimes doing the right thing means you have to step up, and stand alone.
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And sometimes the reason you're alone is because it's the wrong thing. If the people who didn't step up with you are good people, I mean.
 
Rogue Valley said:
The Jewish Agency signed UN Resolution 181 knowing full well what language was in the Resolution.

Jerusalem was designated a 'separate entity' to be administered by the international community (UN).
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And that changes what about the destruction of Israel still being in the Hamas charter?
 
What if...? said:
The Palestinians didn't go to war. Other Arab countries seized their dirt and fought with the Jews for other dirt.

The civilians fled the fighting as civilians always do.

They just weren't allowed to come back.

The conflation of native civilians and the actions of state actors are nothing but a clever tool to displace those civilians from their homes.

Another justification is that other Arabs in other countries threw Jews out so it was okay to throw local Arabs put of their homes.

Pretty shoddy way to treat your fellow man.
Click to expand...

Actually the Palestinians did go to war. WITH their fellow Arabs.

The Palestinians aided by the Arab Liberation Army in 1948. By 1949 the other nations joined in and invaded Israeli territories.
 
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Fledermaus said:
And that changes what about the destruction of Israel still being in the Hamas charter?
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Hamas wasn't a party to the UN Partition Plan (R-181) and didn't even exist at the time. Israel (The Jewish Agency) willingly signed the document.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Hamas wasn't a party to the UN Partition Plan (R-181) and didn't even exist at the time. Israel (The Jewish Agency) willingly signed the document.
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Hamas are the elected representatives of the Palestinian people.

Are you suggesting the Palestinians no longer are a party to the UN Partition Plan (R-181) ?
 
I'm immense proud of my country for doing the right thing and standing up for the right thing amid weak nations in the UN condemning the US for properly recognizing that Jerusalem is Israel's capital. I would hope our allies follow suite rather than cave in to Arab interests and money.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Palestine now has a unity government.

Hamas, Fatah reach Palestinian unity deal at Cairo talks
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Not really. Did you read the article?

GAZA CITY (AP) — Rival groups Hamas and Fatah have reached a preliminary, partial agreement that could pave the way for Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to resume governing the Gaza Strip, a decade after Hamas overran the territory, officials close to Egyptian-brokered negotiations said on Thursday.

And either way, the elected government or part of the Unity government has the destruction of Israel as one of its tenets.

From your source.

There was no indication that Hamas, a terrorist group bent on eliminating Israel, would give up its arms.

Abbas has insisted that he will only reassume control of Gaza if Hamas hands over power. Hamas, in turn, has said that it will not disarm — even if it is willing to give Abbas control of the Gaza government.

Now...

In the NEW news...

Palestinian unity deal on verge of collapse, says Hamas leader in Gaza

PressTV-Palestinian unity deal on verge of collapse: Hamas
 
PressTV? Lol.
 
Fledermaus said:
Not really. Did you read the article?
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I have no dog in the I/P fight. I personally don't care where Trump locates the US embassy.

But I do think the the embassy move and the extortion threat did nothing to enhance the worlds perception of the US...

...and opened the door to competitors such as Russia and China.
 
LOL...Trumps gonna take his ball home if the other countries vote against him. I bet they are shaking in their boots. What a complete turd this guy is....
 
Rogue Valley said:
I have no dog in the I/P fight. I personally don't care where Trump locates the US embassy.

But I do think the the embassy move and the extortion threat did nothing to enhance the worlds perception of the US...

...and opened the door to competitors such as Russia and China.
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The answer is... No, you didn't read the article.

As far as "enhancing the worlds perception of the US"? We could cure world hunger, stop AIDS and find World Peace and still many would consider us Satan... Comes with the territory.
 
Fledermaus said:
The answer is... No, you didn't read the article.

As far as "enhancing the worlds perception of the US"? We could cure world hunger, stop AIDS and find World Peace and still many would consider us Satan... Comes with the territory.
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Does that mean we should stop trying to cure world hunger, stop trying to cure AIDS, and stop trying to find World Peace? Part of leadership is doing what needs to be done even if some people hate you for it.
 
Beaudreaux said:
Sometimes doing the right thing means you have to step up, and stand alone. The US has, until now, placated the ME Islamists in an attempt to foment peace in the region. That didn't work, and by all evidence will never work. Each government of each sovereign nation has the right to declare their own capital city. All the US did was to recognize what the sovereign government of Israel has determined is their own capital city. Brazil moved their capital to the middle of the Amazon into a new city that didn't even exist before it was declared to exist. The US moved it's capital a number of times before the Congress named the District of Columbia the capital. No one has told Brazil, or the US, that they cannot have their capital city where they want it to be located.

I fully understand the turmoil and disagreements between the plethora of Abrahamic and other religious sects that lay claim to portions or all of the City of Jerusalem. This is a political move by the US, not a religious move. Just because certain religious sects can't see it as anything but a religious question, doesn't mean that the US should continue to ignore political fact in an attempt to mollify sectarian forces that to date, have ignored every overture of peace and refused numerous attempts to establish a two state solution.

Doing the right thing is not defined or gauged by agreeing with and going along with everyone else. If there were any realistic chance, that the differing factions could come to a peace accord, then I would say let this recognition and movement of the embassy stand to the side until after the peace process is concluded. There's no evidence that that will ever occur, much less that it's anywhere near being achieved now or in the last 50+ years of my lifetime.

Sometimes doing the right thing means you have to step up, and stand alone.
Click to expand...

While I agree that it is unlikely there will ever be a peaceful resolution to this, I disagree about the motive. This is political move to motivate a religious base. There is no identifiable gain to the US in this action.
 
Grand Mal said:
And sometimes the reason you're alone is because it's the wrong thing. If the people who didn't step up with you are good people, I mean.
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Sure, sometimes. However, it is also true that people that are otherwise good people can have lapses in good judgment, especially when it comes to issues that have been political, sectarian, and military quagmires for thousands of years, which can prevent them from standing up for the right decisions when those decisions seem to be politically incorrect, full of sectarian angst, and have the potential for adverse military requirements. Still doesn't make the choice wrong, just damned hard to make or support.
 
trblmkr said:
While I agree that it is unlikely there will ever be a peaceful resolution to this, I disagree about the motive. This is political move to motivate a religious base. There is no identifiable gain to the US in this action.
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You may very well be correct regarding the motivation behind the decision. My position on the decision is not based on what the underlying political motivation may have been, but rather my support for this particular decision by the US is based solely on the reasons I described in my original post. That's not meant to lessen your point, but rather make sure that it's clear what my reasoning actually is - support of Trump or his base, has nothing to do with my support of this action, nor did it or would it play a role in my future support of this action.

I can support the decision and the action of the US in this instance, without supporting the person that made that decision as an individual. The same was true with me and certain actions Obama took - I supported a number of actions the US took under President Obama, without supporting President Obama as an individual person.
 
I find it fascinating that the Jewish lobby have not only managed to achieve this victory but also managed to get their apostles in Washington to start meting out punishments. Unbelievable.
 
Rogue Valley said:
You're diverting Captain. Whataboutism. The Jewish Agency for Palestine signed UN Resolution 181.

They agreed to abide by the Partition Plan for Palestine which designated Jerusalem a corpus separatum (Latin: “separate entity”) to be governed by a special international regime.

No one forced their signature. They signed willingly while under no duress. They freely accepted the Resolution 181 obligations in order to be a participating party to the Partition Plan in-toto.
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Of course, you're omitting they were attacked, and when attacked all bets are off.

Can you or anyone else show another country forced to return land acquired during a war of defense, by the UN? Better yet, one suggestion that land acquired during a war of defense when attacked, be surrendered and returned?
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Israel cannot be a Jewish State if it Truely intends to uphold the rights of all Palestinian citizens. Will Israel allow the right to return? The issue is the Palestinian diaspora, 6 million Palestinians living outside of Palestinian territory.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_diaspora

Add that to the 4 million Palestinians living in what is left of Palestine that is approximately 10 million Palestinians who would be potential citizens.

Last I checked, the population of Israel is aproximatley 8 million people, with jews representing 75% of the the religious and ethnic population.

Now If Israel’s population is 75% Jewish in terms of ethnicity and religion, then there are approximately 6,000,000 ethnic and religious Jews in Israel: validating the claim that Israel is a Jewish Democracy.

However, if the Palestinians are given the right to return, that would increase Israel’s population by 10 million Palestinians.... I see, the Jewish population would no longer be the majority if Palestinians were treated as full citizens.

If Israel was truely Democratic, the Palestinians would be considered the majority and if that were the case, Israel would never be considered a Jewish State.

I suppose you oppose the Palestinian right to return.
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There are no palestinians. There is no palestinian culture, language, or history, other than from a figment of the imagination of Yassir Arafat, an Egyptian. And of those "refugees" almost all are descended from Syrian and Egyptian laborers imported by the British during the Mandate as cheap labor. Both Syria and especially Egypt, were glad to see them go and didn't want them back. Your argument is built on a false premise from the mind of a terrorist, and not just a terrorist, but a leader who enriched himself and his family with funds intended for the betterment of those he claimed he represented.
 
What if...? said:
The Palestinians didn't go to war. Other Arab countries seized their dirt and fought with the Jews for other dirt.

The civilians fled the fighting as civilians always do.

They just weren't allowed to come back.

The conflation of native civilians and the actions of state actors are nothing but a clever tool to displace those civilians from their homes.

Another justification is that other Arabs in other countries threw Jews out so it was okay to throw local Arabs put of their homes.

Pretty shoddy way to treat your fellow man.
Click to expand...

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem demanded that all Arab nations drive the Jewish citizens of the newly formed State of Israel into the sea. He demanded all muslims living within the new borders established by the UN leave until the Jews were driven into the sea, and if they didn't leave they too would be targets of Jihad, as traitors to Islam, apostates.

Chaim Weizman, the first president of Israel, and David Ben Gurion, the first Prime Minister of the newly formed State of Israel, on the morning after the UN vote for partition, gave speeches begging all those living within the new borders of the new nation, remain as free men and women, partners in building the re-established nation of Israel as equals.The Dervishes and many Arab families who had established themselves in the region when Saladin regained Jerusalem from the Crusaders, remained. Many of their leading members found themselves targeted by the Mufti's assassins. The Dervishes still voluntarily enlist in the IDF today, as do many other Arab Israelis.

No member of any other religion living in Israel, no Christians, no Buddhists, no Zoroastrians, no Samaritans have faced state sponsored persecution in modern Israel. All have been persecuted and chased out of Arab countries, including Arab Christians pursuant to state sponsored actions.
 
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