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‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement[W:25]

Unitedwestand13 said:
But the Palestinians who live in East Jerusalem also consider it to be the capital of their homeland.
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Despite the super-majority of United Nations members approving United Nations General Assembly resolution 67/19 on November 29, 2012, giving Palestine non-member state observer status, Palestine is not yet eligible to join the United Nations as an independent country.

While dozens of countries recognize Palestine as independent, it has not yet attained full independent status, despite the UN resolution. If the UN resolution had allowed Palestine to join the United Nations as a full member state, it would have immediately been recognized as an independent country.

Thus, Palestine (nor the Gaza Strip nor the West Bank) is not yet an independent country. The two parts of "Palestine" are entities that, in the eyes of the international community, have yet to obtain full have international recognition.

They are not considered a country and therfor have no claim
 
Apocalypse said:
What proposition? The UN partition plan? Because no, it was an international zone according to that plan which never came to light due to the Arab reaction.

As to the current attempts at peace, nothing was decided before the two parties agreed to anything so it's impossible to make such claim.
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What rights do Palestinians have in Israel? I don’t even think that Israel recognizes Palestinians as having legal rights, given the fact that Israel continues to build illegal settlements on what little land they have left.

Israel claims to be a democratic country, but if that were the case then Palestinians citizens would have the right to represent themselves in Israeli government. If Israel were a true democracy, it would recognize the votes and rights of its Palestinian citizens. The only problem? That would mean Israel could not officially call itself a “Jewish State” if the majority of its citizens voted to recognize themselves as non Jewish.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
What rights do Palestinians have in Israel? I don’t even think that Israel recognizes Palestinians as having legal rights, given the fact that Israel continues to build illegal settlements on what little land they have left.

Israel claims to be a democratic country, but if that were the case then Palestinians citizens would have the right to represent themselves in Israeli government. If Israel were a true democracy, it would recognize the votes and rights of its Palestinian citizens. The only problem? That would mean Israel could not officially call itself a “Jewish State” if the majority of its citizens voted to recognize themselves as non Jewish.
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Arab citizens of Israel are indeed citizens with equal rights and are represented in the Knesset (The Israeli parliament) as Israel is a democracy. You're clearly extremely ignorant of the subject if you aren't aware of such simple facts and merely react with what you've been told by propaganda sources that you bought every single word of due to not being informed.

If your reference is to the Palestinians who live outside Israeli territory, they aren't citizens of Israel from the same reason Iraqis under US occupation weren't citizens of the United States.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
The world recognizes tel-Aviv as Israel’s capital. The capital of the Palestinian State is supposed to be East Jerusalem.
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This makes no sense. If East Jerusalem is Palestinian notwithstanding its division into a separate entity in the partition plan, why is West Jerusalem not supposed to be Israel's capital notwithstanding its division into a separate entity in the partition plan?

I know treating Israel fairly is hard, but most of the time folks try not to be so transparent about it.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
What rights do Palestinians have in Israel? I don’t even think that Israel recognizes Palestinians as having legal rights, given the fact that Israel continues to build illegal settlements on what little land they have left.
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this is both a non sequitur and demonstrably false. Settlements have nothing to do with whether individual palestinians have legal rights, and in any event your point is wrong since courts do enforce property rights where they can be established.

Israel claims to be a democratic country, but if that were the case then Palestinians citizens would have the right to represent themselves in Israeli government. If Israel were a true democracy, it would recognize the votes and rights of its Palestinian citizens. The only problem? That would mean Israel could not officially call itself a “Jewish State” if the majority of its citizens voted to recognize themselves as non Jewish.
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Yeah, so it kind of does....

Israeli Arabs are citizens and have full legal rights. The difference between Israeli Arabs and "Palestinians" is citizenship. So yes, Palestinian "citizens" of Israel have full legal rights.

Incidentally, if Israel annexed the entire WB and cut Gaza back off to Egypt and extended full legal rights to the Palestinians in the WB it would not threaten Israel's Jewish majority. That work for you?
 
CJ 2.0 said:
this is both a non sequitur and demonstrably false. Settlements have nothing to do with whether individual palestinians have legal rights, and in any event your point is wrong since courts do enforce property rights where they can be established.



Yeah, so it kind of does....

Israeli Arabs are citizens and have full legal rights. The difference between Israeli Arabs and "Palestinians" is citizenship. So yes, Palestinian "citizens" of Israel have full legal rights.

Incidentally, if Israel annexed the entire WB and cut Gaza back off to Egypt and extended full legal rights to the Palestinians in the WB it would not threaten Israel's Jewish majority. That work for you?
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However there are the Palestinian despora demand the right of return? Approximately 6 million Palestinians live outside of palestine
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Apocalypse said:
I'm not sure if it's one long unfunny joke or not but anyway just so we're clear here you were backing pre-1967 Jordan - a barbaric regime. I'm not even backing modern Jordan - a less barbaric but still backwards regime. What is your point here exactly? You're really bad with that logic thing.

And who in the West isn't buying my arguments?
Not sure even you have an idea what you're talking about at this point.
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No buddy, even then Jordan wasn't a "barbaric regime". The fact that no one died in their "ethnic cleansing" is Case A of that. But I'm not suprised that you can't comprehend that. After all, since you try to use religious claims to justify your land grabs, you obviously have to demonize those who oppose you.

Your fantasies, though, are incredibly amusing. You are the one trying to claim Jordan is a "barbaric regime" when Israel has had great relations with the country for years. Now, unless "barbarians" is Israeli slang for all Arabs, you are the one claiming Israel has been quite friendly with a nasty regime(which isn't the case, of course, but.....)

Very few people are buying your claims at this point. Over the past few years, for the first time in the United States, you've had serious, legitimate opposition for what you've wanted to do, and it's clearly rattled you.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Apocalypse said:
Your reply does not fit the post it replied to, I was reacting to your "wiping the tribes" claim.
Anyway spare me the empty rhetoric, standing with one evil is standing with all.
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Oh look, more delusional claims from you. I guess you think Israel "stands with evil" then huh buddy.
 
Angelus said:
‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Ahead of Trump's pronouncement, close U.S. allies such as Britain, France and Germany had criticized him and questioned the wisdom of such a move. German Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel said Tuesday that the pursuit of such policies by the Trump administration is why traditional U.S.-European ties have started to “crumble.”

“We all know the far-reaching impact this move would have,” Gabriel said. “Germany’s position on this issue remains unchanged: A solution to the Jerusalem problem can only be found through direct negotiations between both parties. Everything which worsens the crisis is counterproductive.”

In Russia, the Kremlin also joined the list of nations fearing that such a move will exacerbate tensions between Israel and Palestinians, saying that the situation could worsen as a result. It was one of the few times a Kremlin foreign policy goal has converged with that of most NATO member states.Turkish Prime Minister Binali Yildirim said the U.S. plan is “unlawful” and could have “irreversible consequences” in the region.

So, looks like Trump managed to unite the whole damn world against us this time.

I can't think of anything more likely to cause attacks than recognizing Jerusalem as the capitol or Israel.The only group that will happy with this is religious fanatics - including evangelicals around the world and right wing Israelis. I can't think of any group in the US who benefits by this other than the 'end is nigh' crowd pushing for the 3rd temple. What possible reason could he have for making this decision?

Right now I am betting a reversal will come - because this is ridiculous.
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From a Geopolitical view, Trumps new policy is terrible, and it accomplishes nothing but alienating EVERYONE in the Middle East except Israel. This country has bent over backwards to aid Israel for 60 years, at great expense to our relationship with key Arab Allies. A line must be drawn, ALL of our NATO partners are telling Trump not to do this, for the obvious reasons. The man has ZERO political savvy, and I question what type of guidance he is getting from the State Dept on this matter.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Tigerace117 said:
Oh look, more delusional claims from you. I guess you think Israel "stands with evil" then huh buddy.
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Although I was referring to your defense of pre-1967 Jordan and its behavior, Israel doesn't stand with modern 2017 Jordan, there is a peace agreement but the two nations aren't allies. Delusional claims indeed.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Tigerace117 said:
No buddy, even then Jordan wasn't a "barbaric regime". The fact that no one died in their "ethnic cleansing" is Case A of that. But I'm not suprised that you can't comprehend that. After all, since you try to use religious claims to justify your land grabs, you obviously have to demonize those who oppose you.

Your fantasies, though, are incredibly amusing. You are the one trying to claim Jordan is a "barbaric regime" when Israel has had great relations with the country for years. Now, unless "barbarians" is Israeli slang for all Arabs, you are the one claiming Israel has been quite friendly with a nasty regime(which isn't the case, of course, but.....)

Very few people are buying your claims at this point. Over the past few years, for the first time in the United States, you've had serious, legitimate opposition for what you've wanted to do, and it's clearly rattled you.
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"No one was murdered by the regime" isn't a real argument, just like your "it's not the worst atrocity in the world" wasn't a real argument. You don't seem to understand basic human morality.

I understand the existence of the Jewish people in their homeland upsets you as I told you in the first post, but there's not much to be done about it.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Apocalypse said:
Although I was referring to your defense of pre-1967 Jordan and its behavior, Israel doesn't stand with modern 2017 Jordan, there is a peace agreement but the two nations aren't allies. Delusional claims indeed.
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Except I didn't say they were allies; I said they have good relations. Which they do.

Your desperation speaks loud and clear buddy.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Apocalypse said:
"No one was murdered by the regime" isn't a real argument, just like your "it's not the worst atrocity in the world" wasn't a real argument. You don't seem to understand basic human morality.

I understand the existence of the Jewish people in their homeland upsets you as I told you in the first post, but there's not much to be done about it.
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Actually, pointing out that despite the fact that there was a helpless civilian populace of what could very easily be considered an enemy within their power, the fact that the Jordanians didn't kill everyone speaks volumes.
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People who make a habit out of blasting the hell of a civilian populace in futile attempts to stop bombings have literally zero room to talk about "morality.'

Oh, if you keep trying to alienate your allies you might have a very unpleasant surprise one of these days. Despite your fondly held myths, with US and Western aid there wouldn't be much left of your "holy state" at this point.
 
yankintx said:
From a Geopolitical view, Trumps new policy is terrible, and it accomplishes nothing but alienating EVERYONE in the Middle East except Israel. This country has bent over backwards to aid Israel for 60 years, at great expense to our relationship with key Arab Allies. A line must be drawn, ALL of our NATO partners are telling Trump not to do this, for the obvious reasons. The man has ZERO political savvy, and I question what type of guidance he is getting from the State Dept on this matter.
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It's not Trump's policy, it's Pence's. He's a Christian Zionist, which is actually most of the US Israel lobby. He seeks to set the capital in Jerusalem to tick off another box on the road to fulfil prophecy triggering Armageddon and rapture. After that, the Jews better convert PDQ, or they're literally toast along with all us unbelievers and Catholics.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/paul-rogers/trump-pence-jerusalem-christian-zionism-connection
 
Manc Skipper said:
It's not Trump's policy, it's Pence's. He's a Christian Zionist, which is actually most of the US Israel lobby. He seeks to set the capital in Jerusalem to tick off another box on the road to fulfil prophecy triggering Armageddon and rapture. After that, the Jews better convert PDQ, or they're literally toast along with all us unbelievers and Catholics.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/paul-rogers/trump-pence-jerusalem-christian-zionism-connection
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Religion and politics are dangerous bed fellows.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Jerusalem is a nexus of both, which is why it should be handled with kid gloves.
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Trump is a blind man riding a mobility scooter in china shop.

These jokers can not even get their brains together for a N Korea talks. We should be talking to N Korea before fat finger Donny looks for the ultimate Russia diversion. And I kid you not, the guy is crazy enough to think it, maybe even do it.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Tigerace117 said:
Except I didn't say they were allies; I said they have good relations. Which they do.

Your desperation speaks loud and clear buddy.
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You implied that the fact Israel has relations with Jordan means anything, I showed how stupid that remark was, I guess you don't have anything to add on that part.

Tigerace117 said:
Actually, pointing out that despite the fact that there was a helpless civilian populace of what could very easily be considered an enemy within their power, the fact that the Jordanians didn't kill everyone speaks volumes.
"
People who make a habit out of blasting the hell of a civilian populace in futile attempts to stop bombings have literally zero room to talk about "morality.'

Oh, if you keep trying to alienate your allies you might have a very unpleasant surprise one of these days. Despite your fondly held myths, with US and Western aid there wouldn't be much left of your "holy state" at this point.
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You keep saying "you" and in case you've been wondering you're speaking with an individual, not a state. I understand the separation is hard for you to make when you respond to my views and opinions as an Israeli citizen, something you appear to be unable to live with, but it's getting ridiculous. You are not the United States, for example.

And yes obviously the fact I support the targeting of terrorists who are targeting civilians from my country (what you call "bombing the hell out of civilian populations") does not mean I can't point out your detachment from human morality when you support a dark regime that limits freedom of religion to a certain group and when you defend your defense of the indefensible with such arguments as "it's not the worst atrocity in the world" and "they didn't murder people". Ridiculous.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Tigerace117 said:
Being able to wipe out the people living in an area and filling it with your own people has nothing to do with "liberation".

Being deported from the immediate vicinity of an area--- and treated far more lightly than you had treated the original inhabitants--- is not oppression

Using religion as a justification for a land grab is not liberation.
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I'm not sure who are you talking about.
As I said, Jews were a majority in Jerusalem almost throughout the entire civilized history of human kind, yes, even under Ottman rule, long before the Zionist movement, hence Jews are the original inhabitants of Jerusalem. When Jordan occupied Jerusalm, they wiped out the Jews from the city (and from other locations in the west bank such as Gush Etzyon) and deported them to Israel later on.
When israel liberated the city in 1967 she didnt wipe out any population, the Muslim and Christian quarters are still inhabited with Arabs while the deported Jews from the Jewish quarter repopulated their liberated homes. Its called "the Jewish quarter" for god sake, how can a Jewish quarter be occupied by the Jewish state
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

ido_ said:
I'm not sure who are you talking about.
As I said, Jews were a majority in Jerusalem almost throughout the entire civilized history of human kind, yes, even under Ottman rule, long before the Zionist movement, hence Jews are the original inhabitants of Jerusalem. When Jordan occupied Jerusalm, they wiped out the Jews from the city (and from other locations in the west bank such as Gush Etzyon) and deported them to Israel later on.
When israel liberated the city in 1967 she didnt wipe out any population, the Muslim and Christian quarters are still inhabited with Arabs while the deported Jews from the Jewish quarter repopulated their liberated homes. Its called "the Jewish quarter" for god sake, how can a Jewish quarter be occupied by the Jewish state
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The people living in the area before the Jews came through and utilized the good ole Old Testament "kill everything that moves" method of declaring that the area was their's.

There were people there long before the Jews showed up; being a majority for hundreds of years does not qualify you as the "original occupants". That would be if the US declared that English settlers were the "original inhabitants" of, say, Virginia, totally ignoring the fact that there had been people living there for generations before they'd shown up.

Uh....no, nobody was "wiped out". Nobody even died. The Jordanians merely kicked out people not covered under the very detailed armistice, who frankly could easily have been considered fifth columnists.

Ah, I see you are using the same argument as the Chinese who think every island in the South China Sea belongs to them.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Apocalypse said:
You implied that the fact Israel has relations with Jordan means anything, I showed how stupid that remark was, I guess you don't have anything to add on that part.



You keep saying "you" and in case you've been wondering you're speaking with an individual, not a state. I understand the separation is hard for you to make when you respond to my views and opinions as an Israeli citizen, something you appear to be unable to live with, but it's getting ridiculous. You are not the United States, for example.

And yes obviously the fact I support the targeting of terrorists who are targeting civilians from my country (what you call "bombing the hell out of civilian populations") does not mean I can't point out your detachment from human morality when you support a dark regime that limits freedom of religion to a certain group and when you defend your defense of the indefensible with such arguments as "it's not the worst atrocity in the world" and "they didn't murder people". Ridiculous.
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Uh...yes, the fact that Israel has quite good relations with Jordan means a lot, especially if the Jordanians are "evil" like you fantasize.

All you showed is that you think Israel has good relations with evil regimes.

Oh look, more "you hate Jews" nonsense. It's really quite pathetic that you can't handle debate without constantly trying to play the anti-semitism card.

Except you aren't killing the terrorists. The terrorist are long gone by the time your jets or drones dump their munitions on the nearest complex they can find. All you are doing is ensuing the terrorists will never lack for support or manpower.

Yes, your fantasies are quite hilarious. Keep on thinking of the rest of the world as "barbarians".... we'll see how long that works for you.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

celticwar17 said:
I mean... it IS Israel's capital, Trump didn't "make it" it's capital... and I side with Israel against countries/people who are trying to take it's sovereignty away.
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Ah, take a look at history. Israel was created by a an act of the British Parliament September 11, 1937.

Tel Aviv was an agreed-to alternatives due to the sensitivity to the faith based groups who also have claim to the land, not as living space but as historic monuments and shrines.

Unfortunately, once again Trump's over-simplistic verbal stilettos has appealed to the "low information voter" and in typical right wing American fashion reduced one of the most complex and controversial issues affecting the entire world to a right/left domestic American debate.

In fact, the US is one of few countries involved that does NOT have an historic claim to the land. Trump needs to quit using international platforms to incite his minions, already people have died in riots. And that's on the US, again, causing chaos in a region they have no business in and doing so for purely partisan domestic issues.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Tigerace117 said:
The people living in the area before the Jews came through and utilized the good ole Old Testament "kill everything that moves" method of declaring that the area was their's.

There were people there long before the Jews showed up; being a majority for hundreds of years does not qualify you as the "original occupants". That would be if the US declared that English settlers were the "original inhabitants" of, say, Virginia, totally ignoring the fact that there had been people living there for generations before they'd shown up.

Uh....no, nobody was "wiped out". Nobody even died. The Jordanians merely kicked out people not covered under the very detailed armistice, who frankly could easily have been considered fifth columnists.

Ah, I see you are using the same argument as the Chinese who think every island in the South China Sea belongs to them.
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So you are saying Israel is occupying Jerusalem from the Jebusites ? a civilization which was assimilated thousands of years ago?
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Tigerace117 said:
Uh...yes, the fact that Israel has quite good relations with Jordan means a lot, especially if the Jordanians are "evil" like you fantasize.

All you showed is that you think Israel has good relations with evil regimes.

Oh look, more "you hate Jews" nonsense. It's really quite pathetic that you can't handle debate without constantly trying to play the anti-semitism card.

Except you aren't killing the terrorists. The terrorist are long gone by the time your jets or drones dump their munitions on the nearest complex they can find. All you are doing is ensuing the terrorists will never lack for support or manpower.

Yes, your fantasies are quite hilarious. Keep on thinking of the rest of the world as "barbarians".... we'll see how long that works for you.
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First of all it was clear I'm referring to the Jordanian regime that controlled east Jerusalem until its liberation and not to the modern Jordanian regime which is also backwards but not the same regime (just like Egypt's Nasser regime is not Egypt's el-Sisi), secondly Israel and Jordan aren't allies which means you're humiliating yourself when this is your "argument" and I find it hysterical.

Thirdly racism needs to be opposed whether you like it or not. If I see anti-Semitism I call it out whether you like it or not. I don't care honestly. Those who think that Jews don't have a right to their country or think that Jews should not defend themselves when targeted by terrorists or believe that an occupation of a land by a foreign entity is fine as long as that entity isn't Jewish - and all three are cases you've presented here quite perfectly - should be opposed for the evil they promote.

Finally I'm not the state of Israel, your constant inability to separate myself from the country is rooted in your demonic hatred. I wish you well, the Jewish people however will exist forever and long after you will pass from this world and you should come to understanding this truth instead of pretending like so many before you that Israel will be removed.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

ido_ said:
So you are saying Israel is occupying Jerusalem from the Jebusites ? a civilization which was assimilated thousands of years ago?
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No, I am saying that fantasizing that you are the "original inhabitants" is not correct. And "assimilated" is a rather kind interpretation.....barring a source saying explicitly otherwise, and given the vehemence of the Old Testament in arguing against any sort of "assimilation" with other societies, I'd say "all dead" is a more likely result
 
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